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Is there an eternal Hell?
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Presupposition, there is eternal life and that life is only given by God to Believers who are born of God, it necessitates a condition of eternal death that man already has not only achieved but resides in until that is radically changed (by either redemption or propitiation). This all from 1 John.I have not read Bell but heard enough of him that there is no interest. Not very articulate- just popular.
On this topic (and others like it) I always go back to the Bible. You all went to specific verses about Hell. I offer one about the philosophy in general - 2 Timothy 4:2-4
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
There are churches - calling themselves Christian denominations - that won't preach what is in the Bible at all because it's too controversial and divisive. It's scary to me that people turn to them for guidance.
I think earth is like a "mini" hell or like the trial run of hell.I believe hell is worse.
There are Christians who believe that the story Jesus told of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19–31 wasn't a parable but a true story. This is because of the detail in the story and the fact that the Jesus used personal names which He did not do in His other parables. It's an interesting idea and makes it clear that Jesus believed in an eternal Hell. He should know.
Thanks for the responses everyone. Its nice to know what you're thinking on certain topics. Yes Steve Bell is tickling many ears.
Hell is real, I for one want to try to keep as many people as I can from going...Eternal life in Christ should be our goal...
That's one of the Big questions:Is it God that keeps people from going to hell? Or is it us? Some people think it takes both. Personally I don't think any one's soul is dependent on my outreach abilities. God says not one of his children will be lost. Interesting eh?
Rod wrote: "Is it God that keeps people from going to hell? Or is it us? Some people think it takes both. Personally I don't think any one's soul is dependent on my outreach a..."How interesting, my pastor just spoke on this subject this morning...
I don't know where in scripture it says that not one of his children will be lost because it does state that many will not make it into heaven.
John 3:16- For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
We have to choose to accept Christ though...God gave us a free will...
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
You play a huge role in the salvation of others. Your calling as a Christian is to spread the good news;
Mathew 16:15 - He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Acts 1:8 - But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Basically we need to reach those close to us, our neighbors, etc. and we need to reach those in other nations (why missions is so important). Our lives show our love for Christ, we need to be set apart from the things of this world.
We are called to be priests like Aaron in the old testament. Number 16:48 - Aaron stood in the gap between life and death. Aaron was the priest in the old testament that went before God for the sins of the people. (His position mattered for their souls).
We are priests under the new covenant, Christ died once for all, and now we have to stand in the gap for those that do not know Christ. We need to reach the lost so that they will not perish.
Your calling matters, you have a purpose!!!
(P.S. Sorry for the long post!!!)
Don't for a minute think I don't believe our entire lives are to be invested sharing the Gospel with the world. That is what God has commanded us to do. The tricky part is the results.
Here's the first verse I found. John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. Everyone who looks/believes on Jesus should have eternal life.
We are not really in that verse are we? There are more verses. I'll try and find them later.
I hope you weren't offended...that wasn't my intention. It's a great conversation, great to know scripture! :)From John 6:39 verse I see that the key word is believes, You must believe.
From the study in my bible for verse 39 it says that "lose nothing that he has given me" is in references to the true believer, that they will persevere because of Christs firm hold on him.
The following verse 40 continues with; "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
Verse 39 also reminds me of Romans 8:38-39; For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (That is Christ's firm hold on us).
Interested in your other scriptures as well! :)
Hell is separation from God and many people already experience it. Probably in our earthly deaths, it will get far worse for those people.Joan K Smith
Well put Jocelyn. Christ's hold on us has been a puzzle i've been working on for awhile now. I believe it is not possible to lose ones salvation. God doesn't let us go the Bible seems to say. Reformation theology: my favourite.
I agree Joan, Hell seems to be the ultimate separation from God. I'm curious whether there is really any reason to punish anyone in Hell: So far scripture seems to tell me that there isn't punishment in Hell (i'm sure many charismatic Christian authors will disagree with me).Hell will definitely suck and be lonely...but not painful. If there's no hope - then there's no reason to discipline.
I've been looking for years as to any Biblical mention of levels of Hell. So far i'm not convinced.
Our God is not cruel, but he is absolutely just.
Rod wrote: "I agree Joan, Hell seems to be the ultimate separation from God. I'm curious whether there is really any reason to punish anyone in Hell: So far scripture seems to tell me that there isn't punishme..."This was the Anglican opinion of C.S. Lewis in The Great Divorce. Those who do not accept any eternity for the lost after death are called annihilationist. The Late Bishop John Stott did not hold to eternal life for the unredeemed.
If we were all the same -- and there was no Hell, why would Jesus talk about separating out wheat from chaff? Or about the fiery furnace (Matt 13) where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth? That sounds painful to me. I agree that believers (true believers) don't "lose" their salvation. You become a child of God - that isn't something that gets lost. I do think there are a lot of warnings for hypocrites, people who claim to be believers and aren't - and people who try to ride the fence. A lot of the ... "most stern" warnings are for people who claim to love God but are only pretending- or clinging to religion instead of a true relationship. Why would he warn people if there were no consequences? I don't see Jesus as the empty threat kind.
There is definitely a Hell. And its eternal. My question lately has been whether its actually painful or not? The guy in Luke 16 is not in pain, even though he's says he in anguish in this flame. Anguish is a tricky word. The rich man is having a pleasant conversation about the final destination of his brothers...he evens asks for a tiny bit of water instead of a keg. His mouth is not so dry that he can't talk clearly over a great chasm.
My conclusion: Hell is a time to reflect and be endlessly bored. Every good thing God offers is not there. Especially living water.
This is what separates the God of Islam from the God of the Bible. Allah is going to endlessly torture those who don't pass his confusingly immoral requirements. The Holy loving God of the Bible will give hellbound people their true desires: life without him and his absolute laws.
Rod wrote: "There is definitely a Hell. And its eternal. My question lately has been whether its actually painful or not? The guy in Luke 16 is not in pain, even though he's says he in anguish in this flame...."
Luke 16: 23-31
23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
~~~
I put this in because I don't think this is a pleasant conversation -- I think he is in torment and desperate for some relief -- even a small drop of water. I also think once you realize what a horrible mistake you've made - and the consequences, you would want to save your loved ones. It's ironic that his first thoughts are still for himself - and then his family ... but still.
I looked up the Greek - and torment/torture/agony means exactly that -- pain and torture, agony ...
There is no allah. He can't punish anyone because he doesn't exist. The God of the Bible is still the Holy God who keeps His promises - even the unpleasant ones.
Thanks Margaret. Good stuff!I said the conversation was pleasant because of the behavior of all parties involved. No violence, confusion or threats. Emotionally it seemed pretty stable.
Did the Greek explain all the varieties of torment? Is depression and stress and a lack of hope or comfort also torment? Can sitting in a hot dry desert also be torment?
These are just questions I have. I'm not even sure if the answers are useful. Only God knows.
Although anything that separates the Biblical God from the supposed God of other religions if bound to be important.
I was in my bible study last night and we came across this scripture that I thought applied to our early part of this discussion.Revelations 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Then in Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”
It shows how Jesus has the key to our salvation and even Satan had to go ask permission to go test Job.
I agree with Margaret about hell...Jesus talked about the fiery furnace where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth many times. (Matthew 8:2, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30 & Luke 13:28)
I looked up Torment as well
(verb)
1. to afflict with great pain, suffering, or anguish; torture
2. to tease or pester in an annoying way
(noun)
1. physical or mental pain
2. a source of pain, worry, annoyance, etc.
So being that it can be a verb and a noun then I think you can be in torment when in depression or sitting in a dry hot dessert. Being that those are all forms of torment I do believe that Jesus defines the torment that will take place in hell for us. I don't believe there are levels in hell...nothing in the bible says that there is.
We are punished for our sins. Yes, God is not cruel but He is just, totally agree! Many cannot understand that. I have heard many say that if you were to sin & die at that moment that you would go to hell but I don't believe that. I think God's grace see's our heart. We all sin, we all fall but Jesus died to save us. I think if you are striving to live for Christ you will be saved. But there are those that choose not to accept Christ and obey.
1Cor 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
God sees all sins on the same plan as if looking down from a plane...you don't see the levels of the mountains compared to the plains...everything is even. So is our sin in God's eyes. We look at sins as levels stealing vs. murder. But we are all in need of Grace!
(Once again sorry for the long response!) :)
P.S. I also think it's a pleasant convo! haha...
I really hesitate to enter the discussion as this is about books and not theology (philosophy) but...It might help to answer the question of what are we saved from?A. Sin- then it can be cleansed, forgiven and so eternal punishment is not necessary or required as that "can" be done now or later. (Hence the Catholic/Anglican position).
B. Death, curse, hell which means that the next life is well, the next life just not with or separated from God. (Stott, CS Lewis and modernists).
C. Earned by rejecting Christ meaning a life apart from eternity (or no eternal life) so no real torment or punishment in the classic sense but an end to life and blessing (post-modernists mostly liberal progressive theology).
D. Eternal Damnation based on faith-intentions whereby a person is judged on his overall faith in God and righteous works (Bell and the Emergent post modernists).
E. Saved from the wrath of God making death and eternity an eternal punishment for offending and hating God exemplified by hate for Christ (rejection) Luther and Calvin.
There are some side views and nuances. It comes down to what are we saved from. The unseen things of eternity are a challenge in this life but all will clear at the last breath.
Diane wrote: "Interesting and thorough conversation Rod, Margaret, Jocelyn and Johnnie. Thanks for the ideas on how to respond to people."That's why I like these kind of convo's. Get's me in the word and finding answers! :)
Great contributions and points everyone. I've been looking into the absolute facts of Hell for years. Its a tricky puzzle.Good verses Jocelyn. Except Matthew 8:2???
The interesting thing about almost all of those verses is: they are stories and parables. But not Matthew 13:50. That one specifically mentions the reality of a fiery furnace. But 22:13 talks about the outer darkness. So we have:
Lake of Fire
Fiery furnace
Outer darkness
I do try to match everything up with luke 16 to see how clear Jesus was in his description.
One of my main reasons for doing all of this is because I don't think that God is sadistic or cruel. I can find no-where in the Bible that God painfully tortures anyone to the point of death. The flood and wars and few commanded killings were always as quick as possible with no cruel suffering. Especially Ananias and Saphira in the book of Acts. Death is not nice of course, and suffering happens to nice and not so nice people. But God does not get pleasure in tormenting folks.
I don't believe Hell mentions burning flesh anywhere in the Bible. Strange eh? I only found one verse that mentioned screaming: but then noticed it was poorly added in and no other translations ever used that word there.
I'm just trying to put all the pieces together. God is good.
Sorry it took me so long to respond. I wasn't feeling well. When you look up word usage, it only tells you how it is used in that particular verse. Unlike English, the Greek and Hebrew are much more precise in their meaning. They have seven different ways to say "love" if I remember right - and they all have a slightly different meaning -- so the person knew if you meant friendship, family, or so on. The word often translated torment or torture meant "torture" in the Greek. The word has a reference to down to the depths or to the base. Which links this word to Hell itself.
The Bible does also say there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. It is also described as a fire - not just a hot, dry, desert. I don't think this is just an unpleasant place. This is a painful place to be.
When we look for differences between the real God and other religions, we only need to look to the cross.
Rod wrote: "Good verses Jocelyn. Except Matthew 8:2???"I might have miss typed it...haha...sorry about that! :P
Rod wrote: "There is definitely a Hell. And its eternal. My question lately has been whether its actually painful or not? The guy in Luke 16 is not in pain, even though he's says he in anguish in this flame...."
The Hell was made for devil and his angels, not for humanity. God s righteousness and love not force the unbelivers to go in Heaven. Every man and woman have the power to decide where to go, which will serve in this life.
Liviu wrote: "Rod wrote: Hell was made for the devil and his angels, not for humanity..."You'll have to go back through all our responses...the bible does state otherwise...
Margaret wrote: "If we were all the same -- and there was no Hell, why would Jesus talk about separating out wheat from chaff? Or about the fiery furnace (Matt 13) where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth..."Amen.
Liviu wrote: "Rod wrote: "There is definitely a Hell. And its eternal. My question lately has been whether its actually painful or not? The guy in Luke 16 is not in pain, even though he's says he in anguish in..."
I have struggled many times with these same questions. I agree that we serve a God of love, but I also believe people decide their own fate. I think of my own kids & how much I love them. How we have watched them grow up & make decisions for themselves. Sometimes asking our advice & then doing their own thing. We have seen them suffer for some of those decisions. Sometimes breaking our hearts in the process. We try to step in & help but many times we're told to mind our own business. So, They make their decisions & suffer the consequences for them. I think this how God feels watching us make our decisions.
I don't claim to know the answers to these questions. But this I do know. When I was 8 yrs. old someone cared enough to tell me there was a hell & I knew I didn't want to go there. This same person told me Jesus loved me so much he went there for me - to pay for my sin. All I had to do was accept the gift & I could spend eternity in Heaven with him. I also know I wouldn't want my worst enemy to spend one minute in a place God prepared for the devil & his angels.
Jesus talks more about hell than about heaven. Whatever it is, hell, it's unwanted, unnatural, a place not necessarily burning boiler as a desolate place, without the presence of of God. A place full of remorse, without hope.Origen believed in the salvation of everyone, and sinners. Akatastasis. Theory that have developed and other modern theologians like Karl Barth, Swiss theologian.
I have not read Rob Bell, with his book, Love Wins, but I think that he goes on the same argument like Origen and Barth, because nothing is new in theology.
The worst I can imagine is living for all eternity with all the evil you ever did playing in your mind (or whatever it will be at that point). That would be an unending fire. Whether there is literal fire I don't know. You have to have a body with nerve endings to feel physical pain. The Lord will give us who love Him new bodies but why would He bother to create new bodies for them? Somewhere it talks about total darkness which could be because you no longer have eyes. Someone said once that he wanted to go to hell because all his friends will be there (har har). But I said if you're friends are there, they will hate you because God is love and He won't be there. At least I got a terrified look from the person who said it. I think the worst thing, as someone on this thread said, is final, unchangeable separation from God. That alone would cause an eternity of grief. Thank the Lord that I will never find out.
Pat W. wrote: "The worst I can imagine is living for all eternity with all the evil you ever did playing in your mind (or whatever it will be at that point). That would be an unending fire. Whether there is liter..."Amen
Wouldn't it be interesting if people fueled their own fires in HELL? Probably not. I don't recall seeing that in the Bible. luke 16:24
It sure is freaky that the rich man didn't asked to be let out of hell. But only for a taste of water and a request for a warning to his brothers. I guess the flames really aren't the major issue problem in hell.
Rod wrote: "Wouldn't it be interesting if people fueled their own fires in HELL? Probably not. I don't recall seeing that in the Bible. luke 16:24
It sure is freaky that the rich man didn't asked to be let o..."
I'm going to go out on a limb here. I think he didn't ask because he finally realized the truth -- and believed what others had been telling him all along and he had been ignoring and not embracing. The same way it used to be universally known in the US who Jesus was and the reality of sin and the consequences of not accepting Him as your savior. I think knowing it, he wanted some relief and then hoped he could spare his family ... but realized they would be just as stubborn as he had been in life.
It wouldn't be very helpful for us to have a story where all the guy does is scream and try to escape. Ultimately, the purpose of the Bible is to teach us something -- to help us to learn lessons. People would just be terrified and want fire insurance instead of a relationship. I don't think this is supposed to be about a biology lesson about nerve endings and pain, about whether it's mental or physical -- or about even about the rich man himself ... it's about sharing the gospel so others don't share his fate. It's about learning that your status in life has nothing to do with your status after death and that we don't want to live our life with regrets ... so many lessons. Lessons we wouldn't learn from screaming diatribes. That doesn't mean it isn't literal and true -- it just means that the story is told from a perspective - God's - ... one meant to exhort and uplift.
Margaret wrote: "Rod wrote: "Wouldn't it be interesting if people fueled their own fires in HELL? Probably not. I don't recall seeing that in the Bible. luke 16:24
It sure is freaky that the rich man didn't asked..."
Amen
That's a good point Margaret. For years I've been studying every verse that mentions screaming or pain (torture and torment)in the Bible. Maybe you are on to something: and God isn't really attempting to teach us about Hellish biology and the anatomy of eternal pain.
But then we have to decide if all references to Hell are poetic or factual?
The problem is: If the God of the Bible tortures people for all eternity? I'm not sure I agree with his methods. And my goal is to agree with God on everything.
I think Jesus was showing the truth of love and justice through Lazarus and the Richman.
There's no reason to punish someone if there's no hope to apply this new found view on existence.
My guess is people in hell will not long for heaven. There's too many rules - and a change of nature is required to appreciate God's Kingdom.
Rod wrote: "That's a good point Margaret. For years I've been studying every verse that mentions screaming or pain (torture and torment)in the Bible. Maybe you are on to something: and God isn't really attemp..."
I think you might want to read Job. He was a very righteous man and he got put in his place for what you're doing. We aren't qualified to judge God. None of us is smart enough, good enough, sinless enough, been alive long enough, powerful enough, seen the end of the world or the beginning of it . . .
It's not our place to agree or disagree with the things He has done or said. You have to decide if you believe He is God or not. You have to decide if Jesus dying for your sins was enough of a sacrifice that you are willing to accept Him as Lord and Saviour. Then you have to decide to let Him be God. If you are . . . making the choices about whether His behavior is morally right or wrong, then you're placing yourself above Him in judgement - basically making yourself god.
My point - before - was that sometimes in looking at the teeny tiny things and getting so into the details and examining it all for evidence of whatever you're looking for (in this case -- that people are or are not feeling pain -- or have bodies and so on --- and if there is weeping & gnashing of teeth, there must tears and teeth - and he wanted a drop of water for his tongue - so I'm betting on bodies in torment) you miss the big picture message(s).
I specifically said that it didn't mean it wasn't literal or true - just that it was written from God's perspective. Literal and true means it isn't poetic -- it means truth. It just means that instead of the rich man telling the story, God is. Anyone who is relating a story about events they witness will tell it their own way, with their own . . . spin. God's is always for our spiritual benefit.
So much of the time, when we read scripture we are only getting a portion of the story. I think Rod is simply trying to see a rounded version of the story. People can take scripture & accept it at face value (which is a good thing It is scripture after all). However, sometimes it's nice to look at the scripture & try to see all sides of it (like in the gospels when we see certain events from 4 different perspectives). I don't know about anyone else - but I get so much more from a subject like this because I find myself digging in God's word for that other perspective. For instance: If you are a Christian, you know the Easter story & what it means to you personally. However this past Easter season, our church took time to try to look at the cross & all that happened leading up to it from Jesus' perspective. The responsibility He took on as a man. What thoughts he must have had. What fears. What He had to give up to be our savior. It was a very powerful study & we each took something away from it that impacted our walk with God.
Looking at scripture & questioning it does not have to be a bad thing. It can be a growing experience if you're willing to take the time to study God's word. Ask the right questions. And not exclude God from the equation.
So far I have never had to judge God Margaret. But I do read the Bible very carefully to understand him. My goal is to clearly see the difference between the God of the Bible vs. the Islamic, Hindu, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Charismatic chaos and those gods of the numerous cults.I very much need to disagree with the gods of other religions. If the Christian God is not perfect in his Love and Justice then I need a God that is. (but don't worry - He IS.)
If God is not revealing TRUTH in his accounts: then we have very few facts to rely on. We do undestand that parables and poetry are there for a different reason.
Understanding the Bible is a lifelong Challenge. I'm pretty sure God gave it to us for that reason. He could of just given us the 10 commandments and called it quits. But he didn't.
I believe its possible to do the 10 commandments and not even be a Heaven bound Christian. You could love and serve the WRONG god. Like Islam does.
Are we qualified to judge God? I think we are qualified to search the scriptures for Truth. Faith is wonderful, but most of the world has faith in the wrong things. So faith is dangerous.
Rod: you said, "I believe its possible to do the 10 commandments and not even be a Heaven bound Christian. You could love and serve the WRONG god. Like Islam does."The Bible says,there is none good. Not one. Since Jesus equates thinking with doing, such as anger with murder, I believe the ten commandments are impossible to do unless you have the Holy Spirit. Even then, we slip and have to ask God to bring us back. Haven't you told ?innocent? lies like, "no, you don't look fat" when you wish the other person would lose a few pounds? (as an example). I have a person in my life who makes me angry because of his rude treatment toward me, so I have committed murder, though that person is still walking around.
I'm back after a bit of an absence. This is always an interesting discussion to me and I've enjoyed reading what everybody has written. My daughter and I like to watch a show on cable (sorry can't remember which station; natgeo, bio, discovery?) called "I Survived Beyond and Back" and it is always intriguing. Of the probably 15 episodes I've seen, only two people have had Hell experiences while the rest describe the most fabulous peace and love. The two that had hell experiences did change their lifestyles once they "didn't stay dead." This show always gets me thinking about what it will all be like but I personally know I do not fear death and never have. When I said earlier that hell is separation from God, there is no doubt it is that and that is why many people experience hell on earth no matter what their material blessings are. They have built their castle on sand instead of His rock and they fall over and over again even though they seemed to have achieved whatever dream we as a society are told they did. I believe having no hope and knowledge of a loving God and recognizing his presence is hell. PS - my daughter is getting confirmed today!Joan K Smith
If you are not saved you belong to the Devil.Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: This is talking to Christians that used to walk according to Prince of Power of the air which is the devil. So hell created for devil and his angels, unsaved man fits in that category. I agree with Margaret, people make themselves god as told they would be in taking from the tree. he brought deathe penalty on all men for one disobedience of eating from a tree: al taht came from one disobediemnce, pain, murder, death, sadness , sufferin. We may not like how he does things, but he is God. if the consequence for physical sin was casting out of garden and suffering. How much more the 2nd death which is spiritual. We will be glorified if saved and those unsaved will lose their souls as said by Jesus. How do you lose a soul? We will be like Jesus, unsaved will be like devil- a serpent. That is after great judgement at end of revelation and they will be cast in lake of fire.
Pat W. wrote: "Rod: you said, "I believe its possible to do the 10 commandments and not even be a Heaven bound Christian. You could love and serve the WRONG god. Like Islam does."The Bible says,there is none go..."
Amen Pat and the bible says we know if we are saved. if you do not know and are trying to earn, you may not be saved. One of first verses I memorized: 1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1Jn_3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
You know that you have passed from death unto life. KNOW.
Eph_2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Col_2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
You are quickend and brought to life or not. No middle ground.
I agree with the Bible of course.Matthew 19:17-18
"...Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.
We are not good, we can not EARN salvation by our goodness. If we tried that would make us Islamic or Jehovah Witness.
But once a Christian goodness is how we strive to please God. Good stuff Karen. Thanks.
Margaret wrote: "Rod wrote: "There is definitely a Hell. And its eternal. My question lately has been whether its actually painful or not? The guy in Luke 16 is not in pain, even though he's says he in anguish in..."
Margaret wrote: "Rod wrote: "There is definitely a Hell. And its eternal.
My question lately has been whether its actually painful or not? The guy in Luke 16 is not in pain, even though he's says he in anguish in..."Isn't it interesting (hope I'm not changing the subject but just realized this) that the man in hell still thinks Lazarus exists to serve him?
Yes he does. Weird eh? This kind of tells me that people do not learn their lesson. They don't beg to be let into Heaven, or out of Hell either it seems.People will be in Hell with the same thoughts and attitudes they had on Earth. Just no hope of change.
My biggest issue is: Is this guy actually in HELL? Many scholars say NO. They think he hasn't been judged yet - or fully condemned anyway.
Is he in a lake of fire? Some say YES, some say NO.
Sure sounds like he's condemned and standing in fire to me.
What this book is good for is quickly showing us where people stand on scripture and theology. You can sure learn alot about people by hearing their views on Hell.
So what's yours?
Mine is: I agree with Jesus, there is a Hell and people and fallen angels go there for an eternity. Luke 16:19-31