flight paths discussion

This thread is where we will announce new polls that need your attention. Actually, we would like your participation as well.

Why polls, you ask? The primary purpose of the group polls is to help the librarians with placement of books on the bookshelves. Only the best of the best by an author gets to live on a particular shelf--and this is a voting matter. Unless you would all like to become a "by consensus" group? Or we could do both? Or I can just arbitrarily choose a book . . no, wait that's too hard for me. . .

Note that you can add comments to the polls. Please do--sharing your opinions about the books/author at the poll page is encouraged.

Motivated by the recent discussion, we've put up a poll about Haruki Murakami. Which book would you recommend to introduce him to a new reader?

http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/63...

Caution: The list is long--he's a quite prolific writer.

thanks Melissa for creating this poll, and I can see that, as our librarian, your main wish is to be able to put the appropriate book on the appropriate shelf.This cannot be an arbitrary thing nor a decision to be made by one person, hence the value of a poll that is open to the public.
In fact it might be valuable to open this poll to all of GR. Is that possible?

At any rate, the primary purpose of the poll is to see if we can agree on which Murakami is the ideal book to read first.

In the case of HM I think this is especially important, because some of his books are so much more accessable than others, and some, deceptively slight, a few even off putting, especially with the black holes in his more densely layered works.

I decided I agreed with you Magdelanye and went with a starter book that was I thought was more "typical" Murakami.

Ellie wrote: "I decided I agreed with you Magdelanye and went with a starter book that was I thought was more "typical" Murakami."

Ellie you are the first person who has ever said that to me in my life that I can remember!I think that I now know how Ian felt when I said something similar agreeing with him....and it's somewhat a mix of feelings: honored,vindicated,grateful...because my role in life, alas, seems to be the contrarian, and there seems to be no one that understands me or my actions. ( I myself am sometimes puzzled and annoyed with myself but thats another story) In this case I am not just flattered that you see my reasoning and have adjusted your position accordingly,but knocked me off my isolated perch, which is a good thing.

I didnt see a change in the poll, so I am wondering what your choice is, and if you can even change it?

I chose the first one-I was the first to vote. Let me check again.

btw, I understand your sense of your life role being "contrarian"-I feel as if you're talking about me.

I realize more and more the importance of really thinking over what others say, especially people I respect, and also actually letting them know when they've reached me in some way, helped me rethink an issue.

I no longer have so much ego invested in a particular thought or opinion.

Ellie wrote:
I realize more and more the importance of really thinking over what others say...I no longer have so much ego invested in a particular thought or opinion.
."
yo baby!
this is the consolation of age for sure and it's a humbling experience that makes it possible to carry on without quite so much superfluous drama.

Magdelanye wrote: "this is the consolation of age for sure and it's a humbling experience that makes it possible to carry on without quite so much superfluous drama..."

And it also lets you relax your face muscles and reduce tension headaches...

and laugh about it, even :-)

I'm re-reading these posts having just returned from a wake of a woman my age who was in "perfect health" & died suddenly (I've worked with her as well as her 2 daughters who were there).

Maybe the older we get, the more aware we are of the ultimate drama and the less we want to waste our energy on other nonsense.

All things considered, I'd rather laugh.

Ellie wrote: "Maybe the older we get, the more aware we are of the ultimate drama and the less we want to waste our energy on other nonsense.

All things considered, I'd rather laugh..."

For realz!

Besides, high school has been over for a really long time, so who cares who was prom queen or on honor roll or what-evs...

There's one guy who's reviews I follow because he's young in that tense, desperate to be cool way that ultimately has no bearing on the reality of our mortality. Tres mignon!

Yeah, at some point in time you suddenly stop in your tracks and realize: "OMG! I only have X amount of time left , at best. I'd better try and scrunch in as much as I possibly can into this tiny teardrop of life that we get, and wasting your time with superfluous goodies that crowds out the important stuff, just become less and less desirable and feels less and less necessary.

I like that "tiny teardrop of life"-nice!

And obviously I agree with you.

Jim wrote: "Ellie wrote: "Maybe the older we get, the more aware we are of the ultimate drama and the less we want to waste our energy on other nonsense.

All things considered, I'd rather laugh..."

For realz..."

Actually, I have a theory: high school never ends.
That's the true horror movie.

I think of the Bible quote "Whenever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there I'll be" & mentally I add, "but more than that, you're back in high school."

Not to be negative.

Ellie wrote: "I like that "tiny teardrop of life"-nice! great metaphor...

And obviously I agree with you."

The idea of high school forever is a chilling one\

I did go to one reunion
I was pleased at the number of former classmates who came to let me know they finally got what I was on about.(I was kicked out for pacifist activities)At the reunion I received quite a few apologies. But I was appalled at the hairdos and sizes and occupations ...all these old coots(ungracious of me, I know)
...and that was many years ago.

Magdelanye wrote: "The idea of high school forever is a chilling one\..."

That comes from Nietschze, I think...

I could be discouraged about my lack of originality but...let it be knew is so 1924!

Saw The Hunger Games with my daughter yesterday & liked it. But all I could think about (an odd connection triggered by District 1's government's similarity to the Nazis) was that the way Hitler's government was able to go as far (lethally) as it did was by breaking down each person's role in the evil to a barely noticeable piece (except, of course, for those who enjoyed more). And I wondered if in fact I am carrying a small piece of the evil that the U.S. does. Or rather, I know I do but how to stop.

Which reminded me of the comment, Christianity is a great idea. Too bad we haven't tried it yet.

So, to really follow Jesus I should quit my job which would obviously release me from the fear of losing it. But as the mother of 2 & selfish person that I am, there's no chance of that.

And the Hunger Games made me uncomfortable since I was enjoying looking down on people in the film who enjoyed the Games & then consoling myself that at least it wasn't real, not like Big Brother (which I don't actually watch) but still...

I haven't read Hunger Games & hadn't realized it could trigger so many uncomfortable reactions. I guess I'll have to read it.

Especially since my daughter adores it & my son likes it a lot (and they're very different).

Ellie wrote: "And I wondered if in fact I am carrying a small piece of the evil that the U.S. does. Or rather, I know I do but how to stop..."

Time to re-read Thoreau's On the Duty of Civil Disobedience/Walking.

Ellie wrote: "So, to really follow Jesus I should quit my job which would obviously release me from the fear of losing it. But as the mother of 2 & selfish person that I am, there's no chance of that"

I noticed that you're a teacher. Why would quitting your job please Jesus? I don't want to get into a whole political/religious discussion, but it puzzles me a bit that a teacher thinks her job cannot be for the good of humanity. Jesus loved humanity so much he was literally prepared to wash their feet. I think he was trying to show an example there.

So why would serving humanity not be in the spirit of following Christ?

It also feels to me that holding down a job is a responsible thing to do, and... nevermind, maybe you think there's another that could be more noble than education? Personally I'm not so sure that there's many of those out there..

*Traveller goes back to re-read the thread in case she's missed something relevant ...

I don't disagree-it's partly why I chose teaching, and specifically special education. But the education system is far from teaching towards freedom. And I guess I'm discouraged right now with teaching being so under attack; plus I've lost faith in myself as a teacher. Teaching seems to be about being reviled in the press and held to standards so high only a few extremely gifted people seem able to achieve them.

I have had many wonderful moments with my students, though, where I feel they have understood something important for them so I'm not dismissing what you say out of hand. Just that it's not so easy to feel "virtuous" when I am, after all, generally benefiting from this country's affluence.

But I remain a carrier of "the system" and although I don't comparatively own a "lot", I certainly still own a lot. Part of me thinks if we all just quit & refused to participate, the system would not continue as is.

Ellie wrote: "
But I remain a carrier of "the system" and although I don't comparatively own a "lot", I certainly still own a lot. Part of me thinks if we all just quit & refused to participate, the system would not continue as is. .."

I honestly don't think it would benefit anybody if the whole system broke down and everything fell to pieces. You need only to go and live for a while in a country where true poverty and lack of infrastructure reigns to see that.

No, we don't need the system dismantled or even worse, collapsed, we need it reformed. (And I believe that it is possible, given time!) We need to have those who are high on exploiting the system and exploiting the less fortunate while feathering their own nests, to be taken more firmly in hand.

Here I'm thinking about for example people like the Wall Streeters and their ilk who have milked the system dry, about drug pushers and warmongers, about systems ripe with corruption , about politicians getting financial "support" for basically keeping a system in place that is destroying society from the inside out, oh, and let me, as a special mention, include cosmetic surgeons who prey upon the vanities and insecurities of a sick society, and who lustily help to promote the shallow values that keeps them in clover. There are more, of course, - those are just examples of how selfish, exploitative greed sickens our modern consumerist society.

I can hardly see how anybody who receives fair compensation for helping children could truly be contributing negatively to the sickness of the system.

Yes, at the center of the sickness lies pride and greed and selfishness and egotism, but I believe there must be other ways to work on reform rather than quitting your job and working toward the total collapse of the system.

The first thing that might start helping towards healing/reforming the American system in particular, would IMO be some kind of control and/or more transparency regarding giving politicians financial support for their political campaigning. The way the system is now, it's way open for being a mere puppet show, controlled by those who are really holding the power, power being money.

Causing the economy to collapse by everyone quitting their jobs, to me is rather a way towards anarchy and chaos, rather than reform.

The real way towards reform, from a grassroots POV, I would say, is having the courage to speak your true beliefs, and make them heard in a reasonable, rational way, even if it is against what is fashionable. The more people you can start influencing even if they don't agree at first, the sooner people might start to realize that there is even something wrong with the system to start with, and once everyone realizes that, then the way towards reform will be so much smoother. :)

...so please stay with your job, and thank you for doing it and taking flak and still staying with it! Somebody needs to do it, and you sound like the perfect kind of person for the job. :)

Thank you for your thoughtful response to my statements.

They are meaningful. I think I lost faith in people-and myself-but I basically agree that bringing down the entire system would result in tremendous suffering.

But having come out of the time of great hope for change-the 60s-sometimes I feel that if we failed then, perhaps we can not succeed. It is so hard to get any change for the better and people are so entrenched in their ways...

Plus I'm tired of a country in which so many people call themselves Christian and yet so few behave in a way that validates that claim.

But I, in fact, do love my work and believe in it, even when I lose my faith in myself. So-again today I go in & try to do even a little more.

Again, thank you.

Traveller wrote: "Ellie wrote: "
But I remain a carrier of "the system" and although I don't comparatively own a "lot", I certainly still own a lot. Part of me thinks if we all just quit & refused to participate, th..."

Interesting discussion here, and I need to say that I think it is part of a larger discussion going on around this very crucial issue.I comprehend Ellie's reservations: the so called education system is more of an indoctronation and sorting house keeping the kids out of the way while the adults carry on with their exploitation of the world, not a creative place of learning. We shore up the system with our participation and dropping out is a powrful statement...for about 15 minutes. For you will be replaced and your name erased, and nobody wants that, no.

Traveller said>>I honestly don't think it would benefit anybody if the whole system broke down and everything fell to pieces.

Well, I guess I also need to point out, the system HAS broken down, is not working. You do not need to go to a third world country to find people sleeping on the street, the food lines strech around the block, others going to bed hungry, children suffering from the results of malnutrition, ADD and depression and anger that is directed against the society that is stacked against them. Discouragement is endemic. When more money is spent on war than on peace,the ultimate result is terrorism.

So if we don't want the anarchy, we have to address the issues. We need to stop hacking away at rhe earth, depleting resources and squandering the world.We need redistrubution at the very least, a better way to live together so that everyone has the opportunity to fulfill their potential.

Anyone seen my ice floe ?

Something registers in this discussion, like the single beat of a butterfly's wings.

Evolution rather than revolution.

We (I guess) (royalty status ?).... are all selfish, its just that some are more selfish than others.

Last time I looked I consumed 2.80 planets of WWF's carbon footprint calculator (http://footprint.wwf.org.uk/) , but I am heading in the right direction (down from 3.5).

Like all front line services (Teachers,Nurses,Charity workers etc) I respect the ability and skills that perhaps the world (capitalist system) does not recognise. Like a good capitalist I can only fund them, as my own skills are paw !!

Ellie, Magdelanye, I agree that we are on the wrong track and urgently need to re-evaluate where we're going to.

Sadly, Ellie, the 60's generation, like the 50's generation before them, were hugely naive to the threats and problems we have in the meantime become cognizant of.

They simply didn't know of the downside effects that their extremely liberal ideals could lead to - not that I'm not liberal and not that I was not hugely rebellious and liberal in my younger days, but it does seem that all ideologies have a downside and need to be carefully and discriminately practiced to achieve the most positive results.

..and yes, I agree that to resign in protest is not going to help, one should rather start working at trying to effect the system in other ways. Neither is the way towards positive change via Terror or violence. There are ways and ways. I'm very much a Ghandi-ist. A person speaking with the voice of reason, to me, is much more worthwhile listening to than voices trying to grab power by means of violence or aggression.

However, nothing will indeed happen if we all stay comfortably within our little comfort zones, so yes, we need to start thinking of ways to open up serious avenues of debate about humanity's crash course with inequality, exploitation, short-sighted selfishness and limited resources.

...but to me talking is better than destroying. Like Ice says, evolution rather than revolution.

..and as far as the earth's resources are concerned, I guess at some point in time, we all need to sacrifice a little something, even if it's that cushy aircon in summer or heater in winter.

I've already started working at my carbon print in small ways, like taking shorter showers, using a timer for the water heater and rather hanging up laundry than drying them in the drier. Sadly that has the result that some of the items need ironing where I never used to iron clothes that went thru the dryer. :P

Long ago already, I started trying to do my bit for the ozone layer by avoiding aerosols where possible and doing without aircon where possible.

..but anyway, I'm trying, and thinking of ways to become more conscientious in general. And tell people of your efforts! It might just inspire them as well.

Took my Footprint poll, 2.65 planets and dropping (through the stars). Being an English optimist it will probably go up next time.

Like a typical accountant I measure my energy and travel usage, which will probably go up this year, but has come down some 63% over the past 5 years.

What gets measured gets managed - says he not looking down at the middle aged spare tyre !!

Wow, 63% is a large percentage. :) I haven't been measuring mine as meticulously, so I can't report specific figures...

A lot of the change comes from a shift of commuting of 1 hour plus for the last 25 years to 7 minutes on the bike. I suspect that Magdelanye's footprint is so shallow that it puts me in the shade.

I find it ironic how we've come full circle. People stand still on elevators and take cars and taxi cabs and buses, only to have to pay to expend that self-same energy walking and jogging on treadmills in the gym (electrical treadmills that also use power, LOL), and cycling on stationary bicycles - they could have had exactly the same workout treading a real bicycle instead of using mineral-driven or other non-human energy driven transport.

I suppose part of the problem is that you get all sweaty and stinky while doing a gym workout, and you don't exactly want to arrive @ work or other appointments all sweaty and in your running gear, plus what do you do with your briefcase and/or handbag?

I think I am migrating to a snail with a rucksack on my back. My French name might be Michel (Me shell).

Until I stopped I never knew how much I didn't miss commuting.

It is raining and I will take the bus

the real idiocy is that people have to commute at all
and that our work is seperated from our life

Its shit but I have more to say but it is absolutelt TIME to go to work :-)

Commuting. Yes, it is really sad that our culture has moved into that place where many (including me) spend such a great proportion of what's left of our lives driving to work. I've always dreamed of living completely local, walking everywhere, but I haven't gotten there yet.

On the other hand, I'm fortunate to have a job that I love. And through my work, I help restore a very wee bit of the world.

I just want to tell all of you that your discussion is filled with wisdom and thoughtfulness. I especially appreciate the remarks about the complete change in our perspective as we age. Somehow all those petty details from 20 or 30 years ago just aren't worth the time.

Do you really believe we can change anything, though? I'll admit I'm a cynic, I guess, because I think history clearly demonstrates we are territorial, greed driven creatures. Now thats a bleak perspective isn't it?

Every little helps, and in a way the internet has made it easier to combine minds/resources. We have wandered - Poll anyone !!

Melissa wrote: "Do you really believe we can change anything, though? I'll admit I'm a cynic, I guess, because I think history clearly demonstrates we are territorial, greed driven creatures. Now thats a bleak perspective isn't it? "

I'm actually also cynical, but the best we can do, all we can do, really, is to remain positive and try our best. The worst thing to do is to give in and become despondent. Humanity has changed a lot in the last few thousand years. Pop culture just likes to play it down. Sure, a lot of things are still the same, but a lot of things have changed, too.

Polls, sure. Polls. Ice, polls? What about them?
*looks at Ice innocently*
Your bear sure looks like he comes from the poles somewhere.

Traveller wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Do you really believe we can change anything, though? I'll admit I'm a cynic, I guess, because I think history clearly demonstrates we are territorial, greed driven creatures. ..." and Traveller replied>>
I'm actually also cynical, but the best we can do, all we can do, really, is to remain positive and try our best. The worst thing to do is to give in and become despondent.
well, I agree
It's crazy how hard it is for those of us not born with a sunny nature, to practice a positive attitude.
One cannot be completely lighthearted about the way things are unfolding,but it's no use to be miserable.

Believe me, Magdelanye, I was not born with a sunny nature, but I've lost too many days of my precious life to depression, to give that tyrant one more precious minute of my time.

Not if I can help it at all:- I refuse to let him steal my time, and I fight him tooth and nail. And it's amazing how well we can actually combat that monster if you're wary enough not to give him a foothold in your psyche. Once he has a claw into you, and has started dragging you down, that's when you really have trouble getting rid of him again.

I must admit that the moping in this thread did start dragging me down a bit a few days ago, but then I gave myself a nice treat for a day or two, and I'm already feeling better.

Here's a little hug to cheer you up. *Traveller sends hugs* :)

Interesting discussion thread. Particularly disconcerting is the issue of carbon footprints. The following article (main points on page 2) raises some interesting points, such as: the West caused global warming as a result of industrialisation. Is it fair for the West to now seek to restrict carbon footprint of developing countries where the economy would be hard hit by carbon limits as these countries rely on manufacturing: thus resigning them to eternal poverty

http://www.debatingmatters.com/docume...


And also, whilst the West is busy congratulating itself on minimal carbon print reductions, it should be born in mind that offshored emissions, embedded in imported goods, would raise the overall print: except no one measures that at present. Overall despondent picture, with a lot of human livelihoods at stake.

Knig-o-lass wrote: "Interesting discussion thread. Particularly disconcerting is the issue of carbon footprints. The following article (main points on page 2) raises some interesting points, such as: the West caused g..."

Yes, depressing, but we must take cognizance of the problems and potential problems and work it into our previously cheery and hubris-filled outlook on the future, and get over it and try to work out some kind of solution.

It's not going to get future generations anywhere if we either carry on along our cheery ways, and just stick our heads in the sand about these issues, or, on the other hand, become so despondent about the problems that we become bogged down in depression.

I know I'm sounding very chipper and gung-ho about the whole thing, but that's just because I see being as positive as possible as the only way forward.

It doesn't mean I haven't been sad and depressed that the 1950's-80's science-fiction naive vision of man's wonderful future among the stars no less, is sinking deeper and deeper into the quicksand of reality.

I think we're going to have pull in our belts and eventually try to make do with less, unless technology really pulls up it's socks and helps us to work out cleaner and more energy-efficient ways of doing things.

It's not nice to have to sacrifice things though, I know, and it's not nice at all to have such an uncertain vision of the future.

From Polls to Poles.

One concern I have is that Governments use Climate Change to levy tax, which then gets wasted elsewhere.

And despite the price of fuel, consumer behaviour seems relatively unchanged, we like the freedom of travelling.

I guess there is some attempt in measuring food miles, but its a complex picture. Trade is seen as one way of relieving poverty particular in Africa.

I must say the beans from the garden taste better than those flown in. How would I know given my aversion to vegetables !!

At a time of 'hosepipe bans' here, my longer term concern is water. In 100 years there may not be any icebergs to sink the Titanic.

Let's hope they get to make purifying sea-water an economically viable option. I remember reading long ago that Israel was using/developing such technology?

It's not really hard to do, drinking water is already being recycled/purified; - I guess it all comes down to the energy cost of doing this, in the end...

What we really need, to my mind, is less people in the world. Maybe one day when global pop growth rates stabilize, the future might start looking a bit more rosy.

In all of nature, when a certain species becomes too numerous, nature steps in and starts culling. Will humans start curbing their numbers in time before nature does it for them?

I seem to recall that we only consume 2% of all fresh water, most of it in Agriculture. The Antarctic ice sheet holds the most.

Desalination plants should work, providing energy can be generated from renewables.

And for Knig-o-lass, I remember the high expectation and disappointment of COP 15.

There was a farmer on Radio 4 this morning saying that 1% of water usage in the UK is from agriculture! But much of the rest of the world may be different, of course, providing for a much higher percentage globally. So this comment isn't really very helpful.

Gee, what do people use all that water for? Did they say?

The biggest user in the UK seems to be Hydro electric, if we include Fisheries within Agriculture its comes out above 15%. Simple stats seem difficult to get hold of.

As sensitive as this discussion has unfolded,(thanks for the hug Traveller, I needed that) I was following it with interest (thanks to Knig-o-lass for that link) but then I read this sentence from Traveller and all my red flags started waving ...:What we really need, to my mind, is less people in the world.

I am fairly certain that Traveller is not suggesting some of the totalitarian solutions that from time to time seem to overwhelm ethical reason. So, no ovens or mass graves, but Will humans start curbing their numbers in time before nature does it for them? ...

who could ever judge? Certainly can't imagine anyone coming forward to say that their life is superfluous.
So who decides? Maybe a lottery? Or some kind of test?How about an arbitrary best by date, after which you are no longer relevant?

Population control is not popular but I think its almost a must have to avoid conflict. The equation, supply => demand does not stack up.

Magdelanye wrote: "As sensitive as this discussion has unfolded,(thanks for the hug Traveller, I needed that) I was following it with interest (thanks to Knig-o-lass for that link) but then I read this sentence from..."

(LOL, yes, everybody over 50 must line up for the ovens.. - of course, not Magdelanye, I can't help feeling offended at the suggestion... )

But many people have more than 10 children who cannot really support one child properly, and there are so many unwanted teenage pregnancies in the world, that supply of unwanted babies far exceeds demand, if you look at it from a global perspective. (Also causing the horrible atrocity of infanticide to occur simply because people want to get rid of unwanted offspring)

I'm not advocating a system where everybody should be forced to have only 2 children, and where a "third" , like in the book Ender's Game causes social stigma, or even like the governmental directive in China that prohibits having more than one child.

I'm not even advocating anything close as restrictive as that, let alone Nazi-type forced sterilization.. LOL Magdelanye - do you take me for a Nazi?

I am against the notion though, that birth control is "bad" and a "sin". I am also very much against tenets such as that still preached by the CC that using condoms is a sin.

So basically, what I am preaching, is a sense of responsibility when it comes to procreation, and propaganda that supports responsible birth control, rather than propaganda that advocates that humans should breed as much as possible to populate the earth as if we still had the same kind of population stats that we had 2 000 + years ago.

Have a look at global population growth rates, and you might just have a fright. Now extrapolate that rate into 100 years into the future and do a few sums as to if you really think the earth can realistically sustain so many people. (Unless we dream up some mega-technological advances in the meantime)

From this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopu...

The population has been growing continuously since the end of the Black Death, around the year 1400,[citation needed] although the most significant increase has been in the last 50 years, mainly due to medical advancements and increases in agricultural productivity. Although the rate of population growth has been declining since the 1980s, the United Nations has expressed concern on continued excessive population growth in sub-Saharan Africa.[2] As of April 11, 2012 the world human population is estimated to be 7.006 billion by the United States Census Bureau,[3] and over 7 billion by the United Nations.[4][5][6] Most estimates for the carrying capacity of the Earth are between 4 billion and 16 billion. Depending on which estimate is used, human overpopulation may or may not have already occurred. Nevertheless, the rapid recent increase in human population is causing some concern. The population is expected to reach between 8 and 10.5 billion between the year 2040[7][8] and 2050.[9] In May 2011, the United Nations increased the medium variant projections to 9.3 billion for 2050 and 10.1 billion for 2100.[10]

The recent rapid increase in human population over the past two centuries has raised concerns that the planet may not be able to sustain present or larger numbers of inhabitants. Steve Jones, head of the biology department at University College London, has said, "Humans are 10,000 times more common than we should be".[11] The InterAcademy Panel Statement on Population Growth has stated that many environmental problems, such as rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide, global warming, and pollution, are aggravated by the population expansion.[12] Other problems associated with overpopulation include the increased demand for resources such as fresh water and food, starvation and malnutrition, consumption of natural resources faster than the rate of regeneration (such as fossil fuels), and a decrease in living conditions. However, some believe that waste and over-consumption, especially by wealthy nations, is putting more strain on the environment than overpopulation.[13]

Limiting birth rates through legal regulations, educating people about family planning, increasing access to birth control and contraception, and extraterrestrial settlement have been suggested as ways to mitigate overpopulation in the future. China and other nations already have regulations limiting the birth rate, with China using the one child policy. Contraception is a response to the fact that nearly 40% of pregnancies are unintended and that in the poorest regions mothers often lack information and the means to control the size of their families.

Now think for a moment how many people there are on earth that still follow the directive that we should multiply and fill the earth, people who aren't pausing and taking note of the fact that we HAVE ALREADY complied with and fulfilled that directive very successfully indeed.

I have 2 kids and I love them very much, but two for me is enough, and I actually can't really imagine how I'd have been able to give more children all the attention they need.

As it is, I feel guilty about probably not giving my two enough of my time, and I worry greatly about their future in this big global mess we're busy discussing in this thread.
In fact, it's not myself I'm worried about, it's them. :(.

If you follow through the logic that making use of contraceptives is really actually "murder", then women of reproductive age who abstain from sexual activity, are guilty of murder every month that they are not pregnant or if they do not conceive in that month, because our egg cells keep dying as we go along.

...so.. if you don't use that cell and don't give it life by allowing it to be fertilized, then by the "contraception is sin" logic, you are murdering the cells that come down the fallopian tubes by allowing them to die a sad, unproductive death...

I'm not even going to start on the argument that men are not allowed to let their sperm die an unproductive death.

So following along the 'contraception is sin' argument, simply not conceiving is sin... to me such a viewpoint is unhelpful and counter to the best interests of humanity on so many levels.

Theoretically most women on earth are murderers according to this dictum, unless we are of the cadre who started to have serial pregnancies the moment it became possible for us to be impregnated, at about age 12 or 13.

..and let's not mention many men I know of who are murderers too. In fact, a lot of them commit murders in their sleep.