Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion

This will be our May group read.
Last of the Mohicans by James Fenimore Cooper

At the centre of the novel is the celebrated 'Massacre' of British troops and their families by Indian allies of the French at Fort William Henry in 1757. Around this historical event, Cooper built a romantic fiction of captivity, sexuality, and heroism, in which the destiny of the Mohican Chingachgook and his son Uncas is inseparable from the lives of Alice and Cora Munro and of Hawkeye the frontier scout.

Please adhere to the rules regarding spoilers. :-)
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

I'll be in on this one. All are welcome to join me.

I'm in.

Should be an interesting read for us all.
As I mentioned in another thread, most of us have either read the book many years ago and will have fresh eyes on it in May, or have seen the movie (which is COMPLETELY different to the book) and don't know what to expect from the book.

Terri wrote: "Should be an interesting read for us all.
As I mentioned in another thread, most of us have either read the book many years ago and will have fresh eyes on it in May, or have seen the movie (which..."

I may have read the book already, but I'm not sure. Thanks to the old comics Classics Illustrated I think I've read all the classics because there was enough info in those pages to give you the story line. Add the additional info gleaned from cinema, and I wouldn't be able to tell you if I've read it or not. (see how nicely I'm italicising now? Thanks again) Anyway, read or not, I'm in.

What a piece of art. Italicising mid sentence!
You have been my best apprentice. :D

Why thank you! And I owe all my new-found skill to your patient instruction.

I am like the Mary Poppins of Goodreads. :D

Terri wrote: "I am like the Mary Poppins of Goodreads. :D"

So did you read Classics Illustrated as a girl? Or had they quit printing them by then?

hahaha. Hang on I'll google this Classics Illustrated to see what it is. If it is written on cave walls with red ochre, there is a chance I don't know what you're talking about..

Note the rather classy 'underlining'..this power can be yours too. put u in the arrows instead of i or b.

No I don't know these comics you call Classics Illustrated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classics...

I was more into Marvel comics, most especially Wolverine in the 90's;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverin...

Earlier than that I was big into Asterix;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix

Terri wrote: "hahaha. Hang on I'll google this Classics Illustrated to see what it is. If it is written on cave walls with red ochre, there is a chance I don't know what you're talking about..

Note the rather c..."

Ooh!! An alternative to italics! I'm all aflutter!

I see that Classics Illustrated quit printing in 1962, so the last one would have been dust before you were born.

I'm still dithering for this read but I might just throw it in the suitcase and read it on vacation.

Don't worry if you can't fit it in or can't find the interest in it to read it. You can say no. :-) I'll forgive you!

I have changed the edition that was on our group's bookshelves to the current one that is showing.
Oddly, the one showing now is the only one I could find with a proper book description.

By the way...anyone who is not familiar with this book, don't worry that on some editions this is called number two in a series.

It is most definitely a stand alone book and it is my understanding that people don't often even read the other couple in the series.

There was also a movie made of the book starring Daniel day Lewis. The movie and the bo are completely different.

I'm in.

I'll also read The Literary Crimes of Fenimore Cooper by Twain.

I'm in...dare I say I actually enjoyed the movie version. Magua (played by Wes Studi) was excellent and the song "I Will Find You" by Clannad is haunting and beautiful!

haha.
So am I to guess that there are literary crimes to be had in Last of the Mohicans or is Twain just being too 'judgey'? ;)

I read it so long ago I can't even recall how different the movie and book are, but I do remember being surprised at the time.

:) I liked the movie too. My personal fave was Uncas, Magua's son.

Terri wrote: "haha.
So am I to guess that there are literary crimes to be had in Last of the Mohicans or is Twain just being too 'judgey'? ;)

I read it so long ago I can't even recall how different the movie ..."

Magua was the "bad" guy. Uncas was Chingachgook"s (Russel Means) son. But then, you were just testing me. By the way, Russel Means is the real deal. A prominent AIM leader and was involved at the Wounded Knee stand-off in 1973.

Oh whoops. Got them mixed up. lol...I mean....yeah sure..I was testing you! :)

Terri wrote: "haha.
So am I to guess that there are literary crimes to be had in Last of the Mohicans or is Twain just being too 'judgey'? ;)

Twain is being funny as hel - ah - heck. As an example, he tells of a boat going down a stream. It's described as the size of a regular riverboat. Twain piloted riverboats and gives chapter and verse as to size. "As this behemoth is scraping its way down the stream..."

Then he mentions three indians in a sapling. As the boat passes under the sapling, the first indian jumps and 'Knocks himself silly' on the deck. The secon one jumps and falls astern of the boat. The third one jumps and - guess what? - falls even FARTHER astern of the boat!

You must read it - it's a very very funny article by Twain.

I still enjoyed Last of the Mohicans. And the movie was excellent. Here's a link to the essay:

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/hns...

Sounds unusual. Thanks for the link!

I will be joining in as well

Fantastic, Melissa. It will great to have you along.

Bobby wrote: "Terri wrote: "haha.
So am I to guess that there are literary crimes to be had in Last of the Mohicans or is Twain just being too 'judgey'? ;)

I read it so long ago I can't even recall how differ..."

Isn't Wes Studi a Vietnam war vet?

Got my copy from the library yesterday. I am ready to rock and roll May 1.
I start a day earlier than you guys 'cause I am from the future (we're a day ahead over here in Australia..:-) ..).

I have my own copy of this book, but it is a very old hardcover edition that I have had for 30 years. (Had it since I was little). I decided I didn't want to risk damaging it. Seeing as it is such an old edition.
I got a paperback edition from the library.

Terri wrote: "Got my copy from the library yesterday. I am ready to rock and roll May 1.
I start a day earlier than you guys 'cause I am from the future (we're a day ahead over here in Australia..:-) ..).

I ha..."


What, pretell, do you do to your books whilst reading that would cause concern to harming a defenseless object!

LOL. No, it is all above board. There is nothing untoward happening to these books. I assure you.

It is only, dear sir, that in an old hardback the glue can be compromised and the pages can start to come loose with the book is opened out. I have the books long term welfare in mind. :)

And I have decided that I will skip this particular book, much as I love to join in. I'm not gonna have time for a book that's not in my realm of interest at the moment. I'll hope the next one is more my type.... :)

No problemo. :) See you on the next one for sure...whatever that turns out to be.

We should pick something more Ancient and Medieval for the next one.

Starting tomorrow..looking forward to it.

Yes. Many times.

I noticed that Last of the Mohicans is available for free download.
I was looking at it on Kobo, but I assume it is available on Amazon too.

I was supposed to start this last night. I got sleepy. :)
Tonight though!

I have started.

Took me a little bit to adjust to the 19th century writing style. Found it quite a struggle for a bit. Mostly trying to work out what character he was talking about at the time. Who's who, what's what, where's where.

All come together now.

I came across an innocent, and yet rude by today's standards, line...something about the girls beaver. Perhaps it is too rude to post about it though :D

Terri wrote: "I have started.

Took me a little bit to adjust to the 19th century writing style. Found it quite a struggle for a bit. Mostly trying to work out what character he was talking about at the time. Wh..."

I had the same problem with reading. I found that the writing came off as being a bit awkward, I found that the first chapter in particularly seemed somewhat difficult to read. But I am adjusting more to it as a I go along, though there are still points here and there which I struggle with a bit to grasp what is happening.

Hi Silver
Are you reading this with us now or speaking of when you read it in the past? That's great either way. Welcome. :)

The long sentences don't help. So many mental pauses as we stop for all the semi colon and comma. ; and , everywhere.

Terri wrote: "Hi Silver
Are you reading this with us now or speaking of when you read it in the past? That's great either way. Welcome. :)

The long sentences don't help. So many mental pauses as we stop for all..."

I am reading it with you now for the first time.

One of the things of which I wondered about while reading is what Cooper's own opinions and views upon Native Americans may have been. As considering the time frame of when the book was written, naturally the portrayal of Native Americans does take on a negative slant, and seem to suggest some prejudicial views, and draw upon stereotypes. But it can sometimes be difficult to separate just what is the author's own voice/opinions, and is he supporting negative view points, or what is simply the author reflection the common opinion of the age.

I did some background reading upon the Cooper and what his views of Native Americans actually here, and while some of his opinions might be shaded by the age in which he lives, from what I have read it seems to me that he had a very genuine interest in understanding and wanting to portray how Native Americans actually lived and did a good deal of research on the subject, as well as spent time with Native American tribes. He was one of the first people to treat Native Americans seriously as characters within literature.

Good job. Thanks for the research.
I am only 30 pages in (including the author's notes in the beginning) and I have been wondering similar things about where Cooper stands in relation to this culture.

I find many of the books I have read, of this kind of age, that deal with indigenous peoples tend to treat them like a species for studying. Not like humans that are no different to civilised white cultures, but humans that are akin to animals more than humans.

I am yet to get a feel for whether they are a study specimen, a curiosity, for Cooper. But judging by what you have researched he may not fit the stereotype.
He may actually see the aboriginals of that wild continent as humans and not a curiosity that look like humans.

There are many different editions of this book. Do you have one with notes in it? Mine has notes at the bottom of the page to explain eg a horse breed.

Terri wrote: "Good job. Thanks for the research.
I am only 30 pages in (including the author's notes in the beginning) and I have been wondering similar things about where Cooper stands in relation to this cult..."

Based upon what I read about him I am inclined to believe that he did view them as human beings, of whom he had a genuine interest. Though of course even if he did not quite fit the stereotypical mold of the day he may still have held some biases of his time period and society. I am curious to see just how his Native American characters develop and his over all presentation of them as the book continues. As of this point there does presently seem to be rather mixed views presented.

I am reading one of the free online editions, but the one I am reading does come with footnotes which I have found interesting and helpful.

The notes certainly did help me with that horse breed. lol.
When I read it I thought "what the heck is a Naggan-whatsie".
Enter footnotes. I now know. :)

I was interested to see, in Fenimore Cooper's prefatory pages regarding the Native Americans, that their cast of feature gave away their 'Tartar' origin. I found that interesting: Was the Siberian land bridge known of at that time? (A Native American I know calls herself a 'Siberian-American', but with a grin.)

Diana wrote: "I was interested to see, in Fenimore Cooper's prefatory pages regarding the Native Americans, that their cast of feature gave away their 'Tartar' origin. I found that interesting: Was the Siberia..."

The theory of the Bering Land bridge was first preposed in the 16th century

I think they came over on the land bridge did they? Or did they hook it over in a canoe at some stage. :)

I wonder what made the people of the 18th/19th century suppose Tatars specifically were the basis for the North American aboriginal. Because they were known as the 'adventurous' Mongol tribe?

I didn't expect the *gasp* sexism. I really am glad I live in a modern world. The sexism in this book sometimes stinks.
When you have a white culture that's idea of the worst kind of insult to a man or a group of men is to compare them to 'women', well, I wouldn't want to live in those times.

How is everyone going with this?
I am finding that I don't even want to finish it. That is pretty bad considering it is a group read. lol.

I am just finding his dialogue too wordy. In cases where characters could say something (SHOULD say something) shorter, the characters are waxing lyrical. Going on and on like Cooper's real wish in life was to write poetry not novels.

That's why I am wondering how everyone else is going.
Are you all getting this feel too?

I find books written in these times can sometimes be this way. For some books it really works. Dickens, Austen for example. For Fenimore Cooper, I don't think it is working.

Terri wrote: "How is everyone going with this?
I am finding that I don't even want to finish it. That is pretty bad considering it is a group read. lol.

I am just finding his dialogue too wordy. In cases where..."

Though he can be a bit difficult to read at times, I have to admit that I am all in all enjoying it. There are a couple of points in which it does feel like it drags and perhaps it is a bit on the wordy side, but I have grown used to it for the most part.

I am finding the story to be interesting, and there were some rather exciting and suspenseful moments. I rather like the characters, and I find that some of his passages are really quite beautiful.

I thought this was a rather exquisite depiction of the Native American warrior. It is one of my favorite passages within the book thus far:

From Ch. 6

At the further extremity of a narrow, deep cavern in the rock, whose length appeared much extended by the perspective and the nature of the light by which it was seen, was seated the scout, holding a blazing knot of pine. The strong glare of the fire fell full upon his sturdy, weather-beaten countenance and forest attire, lending an air of romantic wildness to the aspect of an individual, who, seen by the sober light of day, would have exhibited the peculiarities of a man remarkable for the strangeness of his dress, the iron-like inflexibility of his frame, and the singular compound of quick, vigilant sagacity, and of exquisite simplicity, that by turns usurped the possession of his muscular features. At a little distance in advance stood Uncas, his whole person thrown powerfully into view. The travelers anxiously regarded the upright, flexible figure of the young Mohican, graceful and unrestrained in the attitudes and movements of nature. Though his person was more than usually screened by a green and fringed hunting-shirt, like that of the white man, there was no concealment to his dark, glancing, fearless eye, alike terrible and calm; the bold outline of his high, haughty features, pure in their native red; or to the dignified elevation of his receding forehead, together with all the finest proportions of a noble head, bared to the generous scalping tuft. It was the first opportunity possessed by Duncan and his companions to view the marked lineaments of either of their Indian attendants, and each individual of the party felt relieved from a burden of doubt, as the proud and determined, though wild expression of the features of the young warrior forced itself on their notice. They felt it might be a being partially benighted in the vale of ignorance, but it could not be one who would willingly devote his rich natural gifts to the purposes of wanton treachery. The ingenuous Alice gazed at his free air and proud carriage, as she would have looked upon some precious relic of the Grecian chisel, to which life had been imparted by the intervention of a miracle; while Heyward, though accustomed to see the perfection of form which abounds among the uncorrupted natives, openly expressed his admiration at such an unblemished specimen of the noblest proportions of man.