The Sword and Laser discussion

I just finished reading Rule 34 a few days ago and I noticed that it's yet another S&L pick that has a psychopathic character in it.

Has anyone else noticed that a large number of our picks involve psychopaths/sociopaths?

Is it just our picks that are like this or is it a part of the sci-fi and fantasy genres in general?

Psychopaths and sociopaths are the spark in life! They are funny and yet dangerous! Every "hero" that I can recall has some kind of psychological problem...

I think mental instability lends itself nicely to the genre. In most cases, you have a person, one who seems like an outsider, and quite often the fantastical or sci-fi element provides a rationale for their quirkiness, or their perceived mental issue turns out to be a manifestation of magic or other powers.

I wonder if this is why some people can be "scared of the genre"?

Could it be that people are so used to normal characters in other genres that when they come across something so different it makes them uncomfortable?

Yeah there's so much "normal" about Bella and Edward.....

Rob wrote: "Yeah there's so much "normal" about Bella and Edward....."

I haven't actually read those books, but they fall into the fantasy genre as well... I suppose. I'm guessing that you're being ironic about it, but I would never defend a vampire romance as being normal. To your point though; it does seem like sci-fi and fantasy are becoming more mainstream and I wonder if that will affect what type of characters that are written in the future.

Yeah I was but that's based on so much on Twilight being an Urban Fantasy as it is that Twilight(and it's child Fifty Shades of Grey) are such runaway hits with mainstream readers that I don't think it's either the "insane" or the "fantasy" that's an issue for many readers.

I think that a well written sociopath can actually be a very engaging character. For example see Dexter. The dude is ~not~ all there, yet he's beloved, in a creepy as long as he's not in my town, kind of way.

Besides... most of us live normal. Who wants to read that? I gamed with a guy who was 6'8", 310# and played a rail thin halfling wizard. Justification? "We all have our fantasies".

I can't really comment on Twilight at all and I'm not sure I want to read it, or watch it. But it kind of bothers me being on the outside of what seems to have become a part of mainstream culture. So I take it Twilight has some sociopaths then?

Dexter is a great example of a well written sociopath. I noticed when I started watching that series how many similarities there are with Batman. I wonder is Batman a sociopath as well?

I realized that this is also a relevant topic for The Magicians forum considering there's at least one sociopath, possibly several.

Boots wrote: "I noticed when I started watching that series how many similarities there are with Batman. I wonder is Batman a sociopath as well?"

yes. he just doesn't kill people. but he enjoys the violence none the less.

So I take it Twilight has some sociopaths then?

A hundred year old man who's trapped in the body of a 17 year old stalks a real 17 year old, watches her sleep at night because he doesn't sleep, kidnaps her (for her own good which only he can identify) and does a few other things that most would consider abuse.

Yeah... there's a few in there....

Rob wrote: A hundred year old man who's trapped in the body of a 17 year old stalks a real 17 year old, watches her sleep at night because he doesn't sleep, ki..."

I know. When did stalking become romantic? But actually *all* vampire romance has a creepy element to me. I mean, if a 60-year-old guy was hanging around a high school and trying to date high school girls, most people would find that creepy, right? And yet much older guys having a thing for a high school girl is fine, so long as he *looks* young. I still find it creepy. As much as I love Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I always found the Buffy/Angel relationship creepy. He's 240ish and he falls in love with a 16-year-old? Eeeewwwww.

I do see why teenaged girls like it: the idea that a man who has lived so long without love--who has seen so much and done so much and known so many women--finally finds fulfillment because he has met *you*! Well, how very wonderful and amazing and unique and special you must be!

But looked at from the other side, what mature adult falls in love with someone who isn't even physically mature, much less mentally and emotionally mature? It's definitely creepy.

Getting back to the original topic, I think sociopaths show up often in many genres. Think about it--mysteries most often involve murder, thrillers often involve some sort of sociopath offering a threat to numerous people that must be thwarted by the hero, horror often involves sociopaths, etc. Sociopaths make for drama.

Micah wrote: "yes. he just doesn't kill people. but he enjoys the violence none the less."

I always found it strange that they could put the villains in jail for crimes when the only witness is usually Batman and he often just leaves them tied up at the scene of the crime, mistrial for sure.

Rob wrote: "A hundred year old man who's trapped in the body of a 17 year old stalks a real 17 year old, watches her sleep at night because he doesn't sleep, kidnaps her (for her own good which only he can identify) and does a few other things that most would consider abuse."

How the hell did that become popular!? Teenage girls are actually into this?

Tora wrote: "I do see why teenaged girls like it: the idea that a man who has lived so long without love--who has seen so much and done so much and known so many women--finally finds fulfillment because he has met *you*! Well, how very wonderful and amazing and unique and special you must be!"

Oh, that answers my question (not too sure why I didn't see your post when the page loaded) and it's kind of sad. I hope YA vampire romance isn't popular when or if I ever have a daughter, because I would hate to have to explain how wrong it is and crush the dreams of a teenage girl.

Yay for tangents!

An important thing to remember about Twilight's popularity is that features a couple who abstain from pre-marital sex (which pushed it up on the "books for your little girl to read" list). The "older man" story is also a popular one in general.

Then there's the "Alpha Hero" factor that Edward hits. Of course I really didn't even know that term existed until I started researching Romance Novels...

Thing is, going back to topic, normal gets boring. It's hard to write engaging characters that don't start to creep into the "slightly unhinged" group. For villains (or just antagonists) that makes sociopath a common destination.

It can also apply to heroes too. Dr Sheldon Cooper, folks, is not "normal".

Tora wrote: "Rob wrote: A hundred year old man who's trapped in the body of a 17 year old stalks a real 17 year old, watches her sleep at night because he doesn't sleep, ki..."

I know. When did stalking become..."

Bella is a rare kind of sociopat

Rob wrote: "Yay for tangents!

An important thing to remember about Twilight's popularity is that features a couple who abstain from pre-marital sex (which pushed it up on the "books for your little girl to re..."

Dr Sheldon Cooper is not a hero, he's just waiting for his little lab accident....

Micah wrote: "Boots wrote: "I noticed when I started watching that series how many similarities there are with Batman. I wonder is Batman a sociopath as well?"

yes. he just doesn't kill people. but he enjoys th..."

There's more to sociopaths than killing people and enjoying violence. It's their lack of empathy, coupled with poor impulse control and their inability to consider other human beings their equals that is the catalyst for most of a sociopath's violent tendencies.

I really wouldn't say that Batman fits that profile.

As far as books about sociopaths go, this one (and its sequels) is really good: I Am Not A Serial Killer The author manages to transport you inside the head of a teenage sociopath in a way that's uncanny. It's a horror/thriller containing supernatural elements.

KevinB wrote: "There's more to sociopaths than killing people and enjoying violence. It's their lack of empathy, coupled with poor impulse control and their inability to consider other human beings their equals that is the catalyst for most of a sociopath's violent tendencies.

I really wouldn't say that Batman fits that profile."

His motivation for becoming a vigilante was out of revenge for his parents murder, not necessarily to protect others. He dresses up at night as a bat and hunts people. He's narcissistic enough to think he can stop crime by himself while at the same time he constantly breaks the law. He even has an underground layer and I'm sure there's a whole list of other things that I'm missing but in another book his character could be the bad guy.

Sociopathy is an essential inability to empathize with others. Batman empathizes with crime victims all the time. It's his entire reason for adopting Dick Grayson. Ergo, he's not sociopathic.

Quentin is though.

Tora wrote: "I know. When did stalking become romantic? But actually *all* vampire romance has a creepy element to me. I mean, if a 60-year-old guy was hanging around a high school and trying to date high school girls, most people would find that creepy, right? And yet much older guys having a thing for a high school girl is fine, so long as he *looks* young. I still find it creepy. As much as I love Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I always found the Buffy/Angel relationship creepy. He's 240ish and he falls in love with a 16-year-old? Eeeewwwww."

I love Buffy and Angel too, but your comment reminded me of this article. It was one of the first things I ever read on Io9, and I can't really find fault with Charlie Jane's reasoning.

I'm old-school on this front. Vampires are monsters. There are two personality types that can be explored with vampire characters: the ones who embrace the fact they are monsters, or the ones in denial about their monstrosity. I rarely find any other type of vampire character interesting.

I have to admit I cut my teeth on the White Wolf Vampire: A monster constantly struggling to maintain their ties to what's left of their humanity. Walking, always, that fine line between falling into the oblivion of the beast.

Boots wrote: "His motivation for becoming a vigilante was out of revenge for his parents murder, not necessarily to protect others. He dresses up at night as a bat and hunts people. He's narcissistic enough to think he can stop crime by himself while at the same time he constantly breaks the law. He even has an underground layer and I'm sure there's a whole list of other things that I'm missing but in another book his character could be the bad guy. "

Sure, but none of that makes him a sociopath.

KevinB wrote: "Boots wrote: "His motivation for becoming a vigilante was out of revenge for his parents murder, not necessarily to protect others. He dresses up at night as a bat and hunts people. He's narcissist..."

if batman is not a sociopat, then Bruce Wayne surrelly is. All his dressing-up does little for gotham if not motivating the criminal, while on the other hand the bilionaire Bruce Wayne could help gotham running charity but he blows all his cash on parties. if that is not a sociopat. batman is an allegory of the fear he wants to seed into his oponents, isn't that what sociopats do before killing they victims? they made them cook brekfeast. So, Sir i must overrule your motion, Batman is a sociopat

Kamil wrote: "if batman is not a sociopat, then Bruce Wayne surrelly is. All his dressing-up does little for gotham if not motivating the criminal, while on the other hand the bilionaire Bruce Wayne could help gotham running charity but he blows all his cash on parties. if that is not a sociopat. batman is an allegory of the fear he wants to seed into his oponents, isn't that what sociopats do before killing they victims? they made them cook brekfeast. So, Sir i must overrule your motion, Batman is a sociopat "

No, he isn't.

Firstly, Bruce Wayne spends a good deal of money on charities and social development. But even if he didn't that has nothing to do with him being a sociopath or not.

Second, if I'm reading you correct you're equating sociopaths to serial killers, which isn't true either. There are plenty of sociopaths in the world who have never killed a person in their life (which doens't mean they aren't potentially dangerous in other ways). And there are plenty of serial killers who aren't sociopaths. There are more mental illnesses than sociopathy that could lead people to become murderers and there are a lot more factors than just mental illness that play into someone becoming a serial killer.

When Bruce Wayne saw his own parents murder, that would have been the inciting indecent for his sociopathic behavior. The whole Bruce Wayne character became a front for the Batman character and having more than one identity is classic sociopathic behavior. He keeps the Bruce Wayne image publicly respectable by donating to charities so nobody will ever suspect he has an alter ego. He has no friends outside of the people that work for him, or that he works with, and he has no empathy towards his victims.

As far as the Dick Grayson character goes. It could be argued that Bruce Wayne adopted him because he knew he was a sociopath as well, after seeing his parents murdered he wanted revenge. So Batman trained him to be a vigilante as well, so Robin could have his revenge. The adoption of Dick Grayson could be considered a manipulative and self serving move.