The Mystery, Crime, and Thriller Group discussion

Elle will be leading the discussion this month of
A Thief of Time by Tony Hillerman.

Over to you, Elle.

TONY HILLERMAN INTERVIEW
The following excerpt is from a book-length interview by Ernie Bulow with his friend author Tony Hillerman about his approach to writing mysteries:(from Talking Mysteries: A Conversation With Tony Hillerman by Tony Hillerman and Ernie Bulow, University of New Mexico Press 1991

Bulow: Your popularity demonstrates that people are anxious to have real people, real human beings as characters, rather than the traditional stereotypical hero.

Hillerman: Well, a lot of readers are, anyway. There are still a lot of mystery readers who read for the puzzle primarily. They want the whodunit, a series of clues and a story in which they engage in this great game with the writer. That’s a legitimate expectation, and there is a huge market––the John Dickson Carr-Agatha Christie crowd. It’s what made Christie one of the most widely read writers in the world. Frankly, I never liked to read that kind of stuff myself, and I can’t write it. But I’d say more than half the readers of mysteries are looking for that, and it bothers them that I don’t play the game.

Bulow: Surely you have enough mystery in your books to keep those readers interested, even though that isn’t the central concern of your type of mystery.

Hillerman: I guess sometimes I think I give enough and sometimes I don’t. Too many of the Agatha Christie readers want to tell me, “I knew who did it right off.” And I usually don’t care who did it, it’s why it’s being done that interests me, or “What’s going on here?” is the mystery. I’m concerned with motivation, I guess. But all this gives you, as a writer, a tough balancing act to go through.
(Underlining my own)

Some of us are reading A Thief of Time for the first time. Others read it when it was published in 1988. So I thought we might start off with some first impressions(even based on a few chapters) by readers new to the book and impressions from readers revisiting its pages.

I'm going to need to review A Thief of Time before commenting upon this particular Hillerman novel but I can tell you why I read Hillerman.

I read his novels for the descriptions of the area. I love New Mexico with a passion and I cannot cross its borders without getting an immediate craving for a Hillerman novel. Joe Leaphorn and Jim Chee are two different facets of the Navajo Nation, one older, wiser, a bit jaundiced, and the other a young man trying to make his way in the modern world while still holding to the old ways.

Hillerman's respect of the culture is front and center in his novels and I like that. I come away from these books feeling wiser. Like Hillerman, I don't really care who did it. I just enjoy the journey.

There are times when I crave the excitement of a Jack Reacher or a Harry Bosch, but when I see red rock cliffs and cobalt blue skys I yearn for the comfort of a conflicted Jim Chee.

Faye wrote: "I'm going to need to review A Thief of Time before commenting upon this particular Hillerman novel but I can tell you why I read Hillerman.
I read his novels for the descriptions of the area. I ..." Joe Leaphorn and Jim Chee are two different facets of the Navajo Nation, one older, wiser, a bit jaundiced, and the other a young man trying to make his way in the modern world while still holding to the old ways."

I agree, Faye. His descriptions of the area will always keep me coming back along with the keenness of his character portraits.

I like the descriptions but I read for the chars. He creates people who are believable. I feel in love with Leaphorn and Chee. I tend to enjoy a char driven novel. When I find chars i really like I come back again and again

I need to read this one again to refresh my memory but I also return to the Hillerman books because of the characters and the setting. I'm a westerner myself, though now live in KY and Hillerman had a wonderful way of evoking the sense of the western deserts and the people.

I find too many authors that try to use the modern West as a setting but they have not lived/worked in that environment long enough to have the real sense of the underlying background and culture. They manage to 'just miss' enough that it makes it uncomfortable for someone who has grown up there.

Renee wrote: "I like the descriptions but I read for the chars. He creates people who are believable. I feel in love with Leaphorn and Chee. I tend to enjoy a char driven novel. When I find chars i really like I..."

Me too. I learn so much from Hillerman's characters. And the way Hillerman writes about them, body language, movements, thoughts. Great!

Sharon wrote: "I need to read this one again to refresh my memory but I also return to the Hillerman books because of the characters and the setting. I'm a westerner myself, though now live in KY and Hillerman ha..."

That's a really interesting observation, that you can tell somehow that something vital and true is missing.

Elle wrote: "That's a really interesting observation, that you can tell somehow that something vital and true is missing."

Sometimes it's very subtle, sometimes glaringly apparent. Small 'misinterpretations' of the people's attitudes and mindsets are much more common and more difficult for people not familiar with the culture to pick up on. For someone raised from childhood in that kind of community, it can be just about as irritating as someone dragging fingernails across a blackboard.

I notice it the most, probably, in books that include modern Native Americans as there are so many misconceptions about both the people and the culture now. I grew up on a ranch between the Cheyenne and Crow reservations and went to high school at a reservation school, so have been exposed to those cultures.

I'm not as familiar with the southwest as I am Montana and Wyoming but Hillerman does get it right for the most part, with allowance for 'literary license' ...

Sharon wrote: "Elle wrote: "That's a really interesting observation, that you can tell somehow that something vital and true is missing."

Sometimes it's very subtle, sometimes glaringly apparent. Small 'misinter..."

You know, Hillerman was honored repeatedly by Native Americans: he was honest, he wrote what he knew, what he'd observed, and just as you say, "Hillerman does get it right for the most part."His friend Ernie Bulow challenges him on a few things as I recall from the interview mentioned above, but they had to do with the believability of character actions. I'm going to buy the Hillerman/Bulow book. Hillerman gives so many insights about how he went about writing his novels. I'd hoped the interview was available to Kindle but no such luck. Thanks for the observations.

I own this book in paperback and have been needing a reason to read through it again. As others have said, I like Hillerman for his characters and the descriptive nature of his writing. I will have to pull this book off my bookshelf and start reading again.

C.J. wrote: "I own this book in paperback and have been needing a reason to read through it again. As others have said, I like Hillerman for his characters and the descriptive nature of his writing. I will have..."

I hope you'll share your thoughts after you've had some time to read again. Maybe you'll recall how you felt when you first read it and how you feel about the book now.

The discussion questions below are from the site Litlovers.com. Feel free to post a response to any part of a question that interests you even if not finished with A Thief of Time. (We are all, I believe, sensitive about avoiding spoilers.)

1.How did you experience the book? Were you engaged immediately, or did it take you a while to "get into it"? How did you feel reading it—amused,
sad, disturbed, confused, bored...?

2.Describe the main characters—their personality traits, motivations, inner qualities. Why do they do what they do? Are their actions justified? Do you admire or disapprove of them? Do they remind you of people you know?

3. Do the main characters change by the end of the book? Do they grow, or come to learn something about themselves and how the world works?

4. Is the plot engaging—does the story interest you? Is this a plot-driven book: a fast-paced page-turner? Or does the story unfold slowly with a focus on character development? [Was the pace too slow for you?] Were you surprised by the plot's complications? Or did you find it predictable, even formulaic?

5. Talk about the book's structure. Is it a continuous story...or interlocking short stories? Does the time-line more forward chronologically...or back and forth between past and present? Does the author use a single viewpoint or shifting viewpoints? Why might the author have choosen to tell the story the way he or she did—and what difference does it make in the way you read or understand it?

6. What main ideas—themes—does the author explore? Don't forget to talk about the title, often a clue to a novel's theme.

7. What passages strike you as insightful, even profound? Perhaps a bit of dialog that's funny or poignant...or encapsulates a character? Maybe comments that state the book's thematic concerns?

8. Is the ending satisfying? If so, why? If not, why not...and how would you change it?

9. If you could ask the author a question, what would you ask? Have you read other books by the same author? If so how does this book compare. If not, does this book inspire you to read others?

10. Has this novel changed you—broadened your perspective? Have you learned something new or been exposed to different ideas about people or a certain part of the world?

I finished A Thief of Time, today. It was my first Hillerman experience. Since it was one of two choices for our group read I didn't worry too much about reading it out of order even though it's the eighth book in the series. I should have worried and just waited to read it after I read the first seven, though. I spent almost the first half of the book trying to figure out who the main characters were and to not confuse the two. Of course I was listening and not reading it, so I'm sure that, also, added to my confusion. I understand that this one was nominated for several awards, so I don't feel that my initial ambivalent response to this book to be fair or just. So, once I manage to pull together all the books in this series in their various available formats, I'll listen to this one again and reevaluate.

Update: I got most of the first seven audiobooks either checked out or on hold for me at the library. (dancing) So, off I go on my new journey! (hugs)

Hi Elle, The entire Jim Chee/Joe Leaphorn series broadened my perspective on the American southwest and the Navajo Nation. I read A Thief of Time and most of the series as they came out. This series was a must purchase for me and each book was passed around to least 4 other members of my family. It wasn't Christmas unless someone got the latest Tony Hillerman as a gift. Finally, about 4 years ago, I was able to visit New Mexico and it was a terrific trip.

Because of this series I continue to look for new series which are good mysteries and explore different locations and cultures.

Donna wrote: "Hi Elle, The entire Jim Chee/Joe Leaphorn series broadened my perspective on the American southwest and the Navajo Nation. I read A Thief of Time and most of the series as they came out. This serie..."
Hillerman's latest was always a "must purchase" in my family too. I feel I know Leaphorn and Chee as though they were my close and very wise friends.

Jeanie wrote: "I finished A Thief of Time, today. It was my first Hillerman experience. Since it was one of two choices for our group read I didn't worry too much about reading it out of order even though it's th..."
The fact that you plan to read the entire series is such a compliment to Hillerman and his work. I think I may do the same, revisiting each book, because I certainly do miss Hillerman's writing. I'm curious: who was the audio reader on your recording?

Elle wrote: "I'm curious: who was the audio reader on your recording?"

I have a friend who has a gabillion old "Books On Tape" that he moved over to cds several years ago. Jonathan Marosz narrated this one. It's an early Marosz endeavor, though. He really hadn't come into his full talent for voices and such back in 1988 which is when I think this one was recorded. George Guidall narrates "The Blessing Way", which I'm listening to as I type this. He always does such a superb job. He's one of my favs. (smiling)

Jeanie wrote: "Elle wrote: "I'm curious: who was the audio reader on your recording?"

I have a friend who has a gabillion old "Books On Tape" that he moved over to cds several years ago. Jonathan Marosz narrate..."

Jeanie, This is great that you're reading The Blessing Way now: you'll be able to bring insights from that book to shape/deepen your ideas about "Thief" and share those with the rest of us (that is if you care to, and I do hope so!). You're lucky to have a friend willing to part with his Hillerman cds.

Elle wrote: "You're lucky to have a friend willing to part with his Hillerman cds."

Borrowed, only. (laughing) I just finished The Blessing Way. Fabulous! On to Dance Hall of the Dead... and AWAY WE GO!! (hugs)

Sharon wrote: "Elle wrote: "That's a really interesting observation, that you can tell somehow that something vital and true is missing."

Sometimes it's very subtle, sometimes glaringly apparent. Small 'misinter..."

It would be interesting to know some of the details you found in "Thief" that tells you Hillerman knows the west.

Jeanie wrote: "Elle wrote: "You're lucky to have a friend willing to part with his Hillerman cds."

Borrowed, only. (laughing) I just finished The Blessing Way. Fabulous! On to Dance Hall of the Dead... and AW..."

Oh wow, you are on a roll! Very cool.

Finished "Dancehall" and have moved on to Listening Woman. Almost halfway there. Jim hasn't appeared in the books as of yet, so I'm still learning all about Joe. He's pretty wonderful. (smile)

Jeanie wrote: "Finished "Dancehall" and have moved on to Listening Woman. Almost halfway there. Jim hasn't appeared in the books as of yet, so I'm still learning all about Joe. He's pretty wonderful. (smile)"

Hillerman's books are great. I love the detective characters and the atmosphere...and learning a little bit about Navajo culture.

Oh, Dancehall is one of my favorites.

I just started re-reading Thief this morning and got to the point of the tethered frogs. Did that scene freak anyone else out? What a scary picture Hillerman painted with that. I had forgotten about that and I don't remember the significance of the frogs. Back to the book!

Jeanie said she finished Dancehall and Jim has not made an appearance in the series yet. So I take back my statement that Dancehall is one of my favorites. I'm thinking of the book that starts with Jim Chee and Janet Pete sitting on a roof watching a (non-Navajo) ceremony. Involves Kachinas. Hmmm.

Renee wrote: "I like the descriptions but I read for the chars. He creates people who are believable. I feel in love with Leaphorn and Chee. I tend to enjoy a char driven novel. When I find chars i really like I..."

You are right to put character first, and I agree. I'm really intrigued with how Leaphorn's character is unfolding in my rereading of "Thief".

Jeanie wrote: "Finished "Dancehall" and have moved on to Listening Woman. Almost halfway there. Jim hasn't appeared in the books as of yet, so I'm still learning all about Joe. He's pretty wonderful. (smile)"

This is so admirable. I am impressed!

Faye wrote: "Jeanie said she finished Dancehall and Jim has not made an appearance in the series yet. So I take back my statement that Dancehall is one of my favorites. I'm thinking of the book that starts wit..."

Does anyone know which book this is? For some reason I'm thinking it might be Sacred Clowns.

Barbara wrote: "Jeanie wrote: "Finished "Dancehall" and have moved on to Listening Woman. Almost halfway there. Jim hasn't appeared in the books as of yet, so I'm still learning all about Joe. He's pretty wonder..."
Barbara, I quite agree. How do you think he creates that distinctive atmosphere? He's just brilliant. Though his friend Ernie Bulow challenges him on a few things in that interview I mentioned in my first post.

Elle wrote: "How do you think he creates that distinctive atmosphere? He's just brilliant. "

I suspect a great deal of it may be a matter of immersing himself in the culture, spending a lot of times in ordinary circumstances with the people of that area.

I've only really seen this happen with three authors, Hillerman, Peter Bowen and Craig Johnson. I don't know as much about Hillerman but both Peter Bowen and Craig Johnson have lived in the area they write about, small town and modern west people as their community ... they are not 'visitors' or 'summer people' and their friends are MT and WY natives for the most part, 3rd and 4th generations of residents who are the kind of people they are writing about.

Someone from that kind of community and culture can tell the difference where most people can not.

Elle wrote: "Faye wrote: "Jeanie said she finished Dancehall and Jim has not made an appearance in the series yet. So I take back my statement that Dancehall is one of my favorites. I'm thinking of the book th..."

That sounds right.

Sharon wrote: "Elle wrote: "How do you think he creates that distinctive atmosphere? He's just brilliant. "

I suspect a great deal of it may be a matter of immersing himself in the culture, spending a lot of tim..."

In keeping with what you just wrote, I have this feeling as I reread "Thief" that Hillerman could even tell us what a dusty NM road smells like. Maybe he already did!

I'd be interested in reading the work of the two authors you mentioned: can you recommend bks you've liked by those authors?

Elle wrote: "be interested in reading the work of the two authors you mentioned: can you recommend bks you've liked by those authors? "

Both authors have written just one series and while any of them can be read separately, like the Hillerman books I believe you get the full benefit from reading from the first book.

I don't think Bowen is actively writing anymore, but his series starts with Coyote Wind/A Montana Mystery: A Gabriel Du Pre Mystery

Craig Johnson's series starts with The Cold Dish.

Both of these first books are excellent introductions to the series.

Finished "Listening Woman" last night, and now I'm almost done with People of Darkness. I'm so glad I did this. These books are really filling out the two protagonists quite nicely. It's funny, actually. Jim, in my opinion, comes across in several of his actions in "Thief" as practically a rookie. His powers of deduction were fabulous, especially when he nailed down "Nails" (no pun intended) and the facts he used in tracking him down. But in other ways...he seemed somewhat impetuous and untried, and he's anything but that! So, listening to these earlier books is removing the scales from my eyes. (laughing) Or, errr... ears?

Sharon wrote: "Elle wrote: "be interested in reading the work of the two authors you mentioned: can you recommend bks you've liked by those authors? "

Both authors have written just one series and while any of t..."
Thanks very much, Sharon: just the partial title Coyote Wind gives me chills (of excitement)!

Jeanie wrote: "Finished "Listening Woman" last night, and now I'm almost done with People of Darkness. I'm so glad I did this. These books are really filling out the two protagonists quite nicely. It's funny, ..."

Jeanie, It's really wonderful what you're doing reading so many in the Hillerman series: You are going to be the Goodreads resident Leaphorn/Chee expert! I agree with your observation about how Chee comes across in this story (and it's odd given that it's the eighth in the series). It's interesting also b/c revisiting "Thief" is giving me a new appreciation of the Leaphorn/Chee relationship to the point that I'm writing a review (a short one) touching on this very aspect. Hope to post a link to it tomorrow (don't want to spoil anyone's reading). And now I'm really eager to reread The Wailing Wind, the fifteenth Chee/Leaphorn Navajo Tribal Police novel. It is haunting me after reading it years ago. Be interested to know what you think if you get to it.

Finally, I am able to stop by and read all of your comments. (Was at a convention all weekend.)

Thief is the first one that I read and the one that I remember the best. I didn't find it too confusing, even if the characters were very well established. I found I was reading it for the description of the Anasazi, which I found fascinating, and for the motivations. (Thanks for that interview in message #2, Elle.)

I have also read another, perhaps Dancehall, although I don't remember it at all. But I splurged and bought the first one (Blessing Way) for the ereader, so will start working my way slowly through the series. A wonderful adventure.

Hayes wrote: "Finally, I am able to stop by and read all of your comments. (Was at a convention all weekend.)

Thief is the first one that I read and the one that I remember the best. I didn't find it too confu..."

Like you, Hayes and Jeanie, I'm going to read more Hillerman. Just finished A Thief of Time, and more than ever I admire Hillerman's writing and his humanity. Wow, is all I can say.

Elle wrote: " Be interested to know what you think if you get to it." Oh, I'll get to it. I'm completely hooked. (laughing)

Donna wrote: "I found I was reading it for the description of the Anasazi, which I found fascinating, and for the motivations." I recall years ago reading something in a magazine, I think, about the Anasazi. I'd forgotten all about until I read "Thief". I totally agree that it was fascinating.

Jeanie wrote: "Elle wrote: " Be interested to know what you think if you get to it." Oh, I'll get to it. I'm completely hooked. (laughing)

Donna wrote: "I found I was reading it for the description of the Anasa..."

Re: The Wailing Wind and "I'll get to it." Great.
BTW and in case you have time, what I wrote about Leaphorn and Chee is at
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

I just the book. I really enjoyed it. I enjoy the description and learning about the different cultures.
I live his descriptions. I have read several of Hillerman's books and I have enjoyed them all.

I'm starting Skinwalkers this morning. It has been a remarkable and enlightening journey, thus far. (smile) I read your excellent review, Elle, and I'll say more on the book once I've "re-listened" to it. I think what really amazes me about these two protagonists the most is how they approach solving a mystery... how it all comes together for them. Both Jim and Joe have such curious natures. Since they both believe deeply in "The Navajo Way", they cling to hozho as a way of life. Things simply must make sense, and when a situation appears to be out of harmony, neither one of them can resist becoming involved. The combination of Joe's analytical mind and Jim's astounding intuitiveness continues to amaze me, and I'm extremely excited about starting this, the first book that involves both protagonists.

I also wanted to add that the only other mystery author I know of that writes so well about the Native American experience in the modern world is Dana Stabenow. Her Kate Shugak novels take place in Alaska, so it has a different flavor than the Hillerman books, but, in my opinion, they're just as richly and honestly detailed. Dana lives there and she, just like Hillerman did, knows her stuff, and, just like Hillerman, the landscape and culture are just as important to the story as the protagonist. They leave you feeling as if you've visited the area and not just read about it.

Jeanie wrote: "I'm starting Skinwalkers this morning. It has been a remarkable and enlightening journey, thus far. (smile) I read your excellent review, Elle, and I'll say more on the book once I've "re-listene..."

I like the Kate Shugak novels also. As you say, the atmosphere of the books seems authentic and Kate is a wonderful character - feisty and smart.

Jeanie wrote: "...the only other mystery author I know of that writes so well about the Native American experience in the modern world is Dana Stabenow. Her Kate Shugak novels take place in Alaska, so it has a different flavor than the Hillerman books, but, in my opinion, they're just as richly and honestly detailed.
Jeanie, This is very helpful info on Stabenow for those looking for more about "the Native American experience in the modern world." Thanks for letting us know.

Barbara wrote: "...Kate is a wonderful character - feisty and smart.

Barbara, your description of the Kate Shugak char in the Stabenow books, together with Jeanie's descriptions means these are 'must read' books on my list.

Anne wrote: "... I have read several of Hillerman's books and I have enjoyed them..."

Which ones have you read? How does "Thief" stack up?

Does anyone who's finished reading A Thief of Time have thoughts on the believability of Houk's actions (view spoiler)[ toward his son (hide spoiler)]? Ernie Bulow questioned Hillerman on that aspect of the book.

Elle wrote: "Does anyone who's finished reading A Thief of Time have thoughts on the believability of Houk's actions [spoilers removed]? Ernie Bulow questioned Hillerman on that aspect of the book."

Yes. His actions were very believable in my opinion.(smile) I won't say more until folks are finished, then I'll edit my post.

Hi Elle and Jeanie. You can hide your spoiler with the html spoiler. Click on the (some html is ok) for the whole list. That way you don't have to wait to discuss a spoiler. (view spoiler)[This is where you write the spoiler (hide spoiler)]