The Sword and Laser discussion

I love the first 4 Dune books – up to God Emperor (and plan to re-read them). I also liked the Lynch movie and both mini series. I really did not like any of the books written by Brian Herbert (but I still read a few of them!).

I believe there is possibly a new movie in the pipe line.

I've read the original six around four times, so obviously I love them all. I can see how some people would not like various books in the series for various reasons. The first time I read through them, I actively disliked books two and four. One thing about this series is that you simply cannot get everything in one pass. After finishing book six, I felt I'd missed something in God Emperor and immediately went back and re-read it. It went from being my least favorite book of the series to my absolute favorite of the bunch. Book two has also improved in my eyes, though is still my least favorite of the series.

Books five and six have a noticeable stylistic change, which is why many people dislike them. For me however, after the previous four books, it's a nice change of pace and the change keeps me interested till the end.

I've noticed that many people like the first book only, which is understandable. It is a great book and it is always tough for an author to maintain that initial connection that the 'world building' first book creates. For me, I view each book as it's own thing. Comparing them too much to each other creates an expectation that can never be met, because what you expect and what the author creates/expects will never be the same. Going into the first book of any series, one simply doesn't have enough information to create any real expectation. As a result I think people are more open to what is happening, as the ground rules are still being established.

Matt wrote: "I've read the original six around four times, so obviously I love them all. I can see how some people would not like various books in the series for various reasons. The first time I read through..."

I agree with you Matt. Each of these books give you great insight into the characters. My favorite, but the hardest to read because of how sad it is "God Emperor of Dune." Here we see what Leo II sacrifice have done to him. He barely human anymore yet at the same time he understand human better anyone before or after him. His transformation make him so isolated that he have no one that can understand him and he live like that for thousands of years. He keep bring back Duncan to ensure the Gold Path is secure, yet as he keep bringing back Duncan, Duncan grow to hate him. The character that resemble his sister hate him as well. He know there technology to bring back his parents, but that is selfish so he would not do that to them. Even if he wanted to kill himself after securing the Gold Path he cannot because the worm in him would not allow him to kill himself. So in the end he have to ensure that the one he love(the person that resemble his sister) end him. Even then he does not really die part of his consciousness are forever with the worm so there is no rest for him. This was something even Paul his father cannot do. Paul know of the Golden Path and what it mean for humanity, yet he did not do it because in the end that mean to live forever without Chani. If all of you want to compare books try to understand the deeper meaning in the book, then just what is written. Next time think how that would effect you.

I'm curious to as if Tom has read the entire series and enjoyed them all. I seem to recall him being a fan of Dune.

I liked 1 and 2, never got through 3.

I really like the Dune series as a whole, but it took me several tries to get through God Emperor, and that one I usually skip when I re-read them, it's just too weird and I never liked Leto as a character. Also that jump of thousands of years meant all my favorite characters were gone.

Of the ones written by his son, I liked the trilogy about the Houses (because I liked learning more about Paul's father and the younger Baron Harkonnen), didn't finish the jihad trilogy and found the two finishing books of the main series painfully written but I wanted to know how it all ends up. I felt it ended up pretty weird, but still glad I read them. I haven't bothered to ever re-read them though.

If you don't get past the third you don't get to see just how the Golden Path plays out and why it was justified as the correct choice for Leto to make. But if you don't care by that point then it doesn't matter.

I finished God Emperor of Dune but couldn't bring myself to go any further. GEOD got really weird and I just couldn't handle it.

I enjoyed Dune and Dune Messiah the most (DM is probably my favorite)

I think Dune through God-Emperor of Dune make a great epic saga (though I had problems with Dune Messiah) and reach a satisfying ending point.

I read the other two and enjoyed them, but at a much lower level.

Never tried the prequels. Felt too much like gold-digging to me.

Darren wrote: "I think Dune through God-Emperor of Dune make a great epic saga (though I had problems with Dune Messiah) and reach a satisfying ending point.

I'm just now reading Dune Messiah, and I'm finding it very tedious compared to Dune. At the same time I'm finding it too long and too short; Herbert doesn't get into the details that are needed, but draws out the less important ones.

Dune and Dune Messiah were originally one book, and the publisher made Frank split it into two. Like one of the previous contributors, I first hated GEOD, then loved it, particularly after reading "The Dune Encyclopedia". Chapterhouse and Heretics were "ok", the Brian Herbert stuff is an Alia-level abomination.....

I love all 6 by Frank. They are all brilliant in their own way. My favorites are probably Dune, Dune Messiah, Heretics & Chapter House. I always tell people to take a big breather between "trilogies". And remember: Dune has been ripped off so many times, by now some of it seems predictable or too familiar.

I also still get amused when I see my copy of Chapterhouse that says, "The Triumphant Conclusion to the Dune Saga!" on the cover. Well, um, only in the sense that he died before writing the next volume.

I got to the one where Leto II turns into the worm - was that God Emperor? I remember that even then it was more out of a sense of completion than interest that I finished it. Once the focus shifted from Paul to his kids, the story didn't catch me anymore.

Anecdote: I am trying to unload all my books beyond Dune for free since weeks now on Amazon - no takers...

Julio wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "In that they admit that the outline of Dune 7 that Frank left behind was only 2 and a half pages. "

Interesting fact.
I guess I'll never read those sequels, then.

Thanks for the..."

Avoid them like plague!

I read the first three before giving up but only really liked Dune. But I liked the first as much as anything I have read that Herbert gets a pass on the rest.

I read all the Dune books in my youth and loved them. But then recently, after I started writing (I write short stories) myself, I reread Dune and was shocked by how much Herbert head hops (POV shifts). Never noticed before but now that I have been "trained" it made his work much less enjoyable. Curse of being a writer I suppose.

CR wrote: "I read all the Dune books in my youth and loved them. But then recently, after I started writing (I write short stories) myself, I reread Dune and was shocked by how much Herbert head hops (POV sh..."

Uh, untrain yourself. There are no rules. I try to break as many "rules" as I can whenever I write. And hey, GRR Martin has had great success with "head hopping", not to mention Robert Jordan, among others. Toss the rules out, they'll only hold you back.

Best I can tell GRRM is quite skilled at it (POV shifts), only changing at chapter breaks. That said, he's probably set records on the number of POV characters. Haven't read Jordan.

Hey it's all a matter of preference. Just for me, mine changed when I started writing, that's all.

Who comes up with the rules? Who says they get to make rules that define what's right and what's wrong? Have they written anything published? Have they written, as Herbert did, a genre classic?

As someone once said: "Argue for your limitations... and they're yours."

Nekroskop wrote: "I got to the one where Leto II turns into the worm - was that God Emperor? I remember that even then it was more out of a sense of completion than interest that I finished it. Once the focus shifte..."

That's the one. Between WormGod! Leto and his creepy obsession with his neice?/granddaughter? (I can't remember the relation), I was this close to lemming it.

It's been years since I read God Emperor but as I recall those novels Paul wandered into the desert because he'd seen a future where humanity died out because it become too centralized and vulnerable to a central authority that could quite literally see the future. Somehow, his merging with the sandworm and imposition of a millenia-long order would change this in part at least by giving rise to humans who carried the ability to hide from his prescience. Leto took this burden from him.

Leto's interest in his female descendant was, IIRC, because she carried that capability to hide from even his prescience. It wasn't creepy in a sexual way and if anyone's reading that into it... that's on the reader and his/her predilections.

The failure of these books from my point of view was that it was never really clear what Paul and Leto saw nor was it credibly setup that humanity could die out having spread across worlds. I suppose one could say that having prescient rulers who could anticipate revolts, etc centralized power and increased dependence and that even assassinating them (if possible) only put things off since, once it was known that creating such humans was possible, someone somewhere would simply create more.

Dune, though, was a fairly standard story in an exotic location with echoes of Earth's cultures twisted and reformed in interesting ways. It was, in many ways, a coming of age story with subplots of betrayal, the regaining of power and various evils, petty and otherwise. For me, it was set in a richly detailed, interesting universe. The sequels struggled to have a purpose though. It's one reason many of the stories like Dune where the rightful heir regains his or her throne stop there. The story of exile, struggle and conquest is interesting. The story of the aftermath usually isn't.

Despite all that, I still found WormGod! Leto weird. The many descriptions of his cold gray skin, the way he had to undulate to move, the hood covering his head and face, and I think at one point he even drank from his own tail. That's weird. IMHO, anyway.

I didn't say creepy = sexual, although if you read it that way, that's on you and your predilictions.

I love the IDEA inherent in God Emperor of Dune, but getting through the actual book can be a bit tedious. At least then the series picks up again with Heretics and Chapterhouse, in my opinion.

Generally, I just tell people to read the first book. Hearing people stopping after the third is so common.

I've made it up through Heretics of Dune, but have yet to start Chapterhouse: Dune.

Chapterhouse gets better every time I read it. It's a deep book.

Charles wrote: "Like Ender's Game, some people stopped after the first book.

Personally, read everything the late Frank Hebert release, and it's interesting how Duncan Idaho became the lynchpin of the series..."

That was pretty cool.

(Ressurection of 2013 thread)

I have Dune as my #1 SciFi book of all time and never read the rest of the series. I needed a break from Non-fiction and with my interest in the second movie at a high, I came back to this series and I have no idea if I like it. But, I cant stop reading it.

Herbert can go quite a few pages of writing one person's thoughts and that's it. It feels like you can cut 90% of the book and get the full story but for some reason I can't put it down and I am pretty sure I am enjoying it. Although I skip every single excerpt from the chapter intros.