The Sword and Laser discussion

If you haven't finished the book STOP RIGHT NOW!

Veronica mentioned in the S&L podcast that she felt Quentin's rise in class did not bear any fruit in his abilities as a magician. But the time spent in Brakebills South, in which the students perform in the cross-country race through the arctic, was one of my favorite scenes in the book and I feel more than settles the question of Quentin's ability as he and Alice are the only two to actually finish. I will grant that this scene is his only display of arcane mastery in the book. When they head to Fillory he's really no better off than any of the rest of the Physical Kids. Maybe it's the lack of follow through after this display that leaves some cold? To be fair the Big Bad of the book is a self-made god. Thoughts?

It was my thread that Veronica commented on and though I agree that the scene at Brakebills South was indeed another example of Quentin being exceptional at magic.

However there still remain two flaws for me:

1.) It was actually never said that the others would have failed, they didn't even try. I know this can be regarded as a technicality, but it really makes a difference to me. If the other students had tried and not come further than ten miles it would have been different - for me at least. The fact that Alice and Quentin were the only ones who made it to the pole just because they were the only ones that tried says more about their personality or maybe their relationship with each other than about their actual magical abilities.

2. It still remains that there are only two points in the books where Quentions supposedly superior abilities show, at least as far as I remember. It feels more like Lev Grossman just says that Quentin is exceptional, illustrates it with two scenes and doesn't actually provide any further proof (so to speak) during the rest of the book. It feels inconsistent and lacks a certain credibility - at least that's how I feel.

Veronica mentioned in the S&L podcast that she felt Quentin's rise in class did not bear any fruit in his abilities as a magician. But the time spent in Brakebills South, in which the students perform in the cross-country race through the arctic, was one of my favorite scenes in the book and I feel more than settles the question of Quentin's ability as he and Alice are the only two to actually finish."

As Anne points out above, they aren't the only ones to *finish* (although they did), they are the only ones who even tried. And the fact that there is no penalty for not doing it, and no reward for doing it other than the intrinsic reward of proving you could do it, made me wonder why Quentin did. The other students seem to pity him, as though he had done something foolish--possibly reflecting that anti-intellectual bias mentioned elsewhere. But I'm not sure that we really get an answer to why Quentin did it. He seemed to have been surprised to learn that he and Alice were the only ones that did, so I was left with the impression that he did the test only because he thought everyone would do it, and then was surprised to find out that they didn't.

Meanwhile, during the test he thinks negative thoughts toward the other test taker (not knowing it was Alice)--that she was wasting energy on the bright light. But then she finishes two days sooner than he does. Which, it seems to me, is just further evidence that his high opinion of himself is unjustified. Which is kind of the opposite of proving his competence at magic.

His failure to complete his final project (and there's no penalty for that, either--just what kind of school IS Brakebill's?) is still further proof that he's not as competent as he thinks he is.

I think Quentin lacks motivation, that's why he isn't as good with magic/studies as Lev Grossman makes us think.

It seems to me that there are several instances where Alice and Quentin were shown to be the best students, but they never attained any skills equal to those shown by the teachers. From that I can conclude two things; 1) the other students were even more pathetic at Magic than these two, 2) The school did a very poor job of education overall.

The final battle with the baddie, with the fact that Alice is able to keep up with him for a long time, despite the fact that he had effectively held all the teachers to a standstill earlier in the book for a day, is an example of the fact that the relative power/skill of the various magicians in the book is completely illogical and inconsistent, either because the author put no thought into it or this was deliberate as some sort of satire on the usual fantasy trope that has (generally) a fairly clear heirarchical power level of the various protagonists. Either way it was one of the things that irritated me about the book.....

Most annoying thing to me, no lie, was that he put his shoe in a stream, then didn't use magic to dry himself.

What is that?

@Tora I think he and Alice being the only ones to attempt says something about his character in and of itself. Quentin accepts the challenge as validation of his abilities. That the others didn't says nothing against him; they're just lazier than he is. Compare he and Alice to the rest of the Physical kids, and they're the least jaded, the least entitled of the group. In relation to Quentin, that's not saying much. He's haughty, arrogant, and self-absorbed. But I still think he was the second most poweful protagonist of the book.

As far as Alice's display during the race, I think that whole scene was supposed to indicate to us that she was just THAT much more powerful than he was; Quentin figures out how to burn the energy efficiently which shows understanding, foresight, and mastery of his craft; the difference is that she doesn't even need to bother with such concerns- she has the power to spare, which allowed her to beat him by two days.

@Napoez I think you're right, but compared to his peers (other than Alice) he's the most motivated.

@Ian - THAT'S a good observation. The only argument I can come up with (and it's a flimsy one) goes back to Alice's display during the race. She'll waste energy on big flashy magicks to try and get the result she wants as fast as possible. The faculty of Brakebills, by comparison, are more conservative like Quentin and concern themselves with efficiency of the casting, which probably means they can last a lot longer in the ring, but don't hit has hard.

Brandon wrote: "@Ian - THAT'S a good observation. The only argument I can come up with (and it's a flimsy one) goes back to Alice's display during the race..."

I can't agree though, for one reason: As Alice points out, Quentin is supposedly special because he still believes in magic and its wonders when everyone else has grown out of it. While that doesn't mean he has to be all flashy, I think the fact that he's portrayed as so conservative with his abilities is a flaw. Like you say, he uses it like the faculty - people who pretty obviously limit themselves and are afraid of magic (as the book progressed I developed the impression that the faculty were hiding. They'd caught a glimpse of the 'real world' and sought shelter under the guise of teaching).

I just don't think Grossman ever worked out an actual system for his magic and flaws really show as the story moves along.

This sort of relates to one of the major problems I had with the book as it progressed.

(view spoiler)[
I didn't have much of a problem with any of the plot points until they got to Fillory. I found it completely unbelievable that people who were supposedly college trained in magic would have been so inept! I guess none of them had ever really been forced to use magic under genuine pressure, but still! The teens from Hogwarts would have put them to shame! ;)

Upon arriving in Fillory, they didn't employ any kind of protective or warming spells. I know they think that Fillory is going to be a land of bunnies and Cozy Horse and all, but it still strikes me as extremely and unbelievably naive. It took them getting attacked several times before finally finding their guts and responding. Heck, Janet goes for a gun before she goes for a spell! What kind of magicians are they? (hide spoiler)]

I think some of the discussion here is sort of missing the point Grossman was trying to make about the magic. It seemed to me that there were two aspects to it: 1) innate power, and 2) skill/specialization level.

Alice has a huge amount of innate power, and Quentin's level is pretty high as well (as evidenced by the ability to stay alive and even to want to take on the challenge in Antarctica). The teachers and pretty much everyone else in the book except maybe Penny have relatively low levels of innate power.

What sets the teachers apart is their skill/specialization level, which is a function of how long they have been doing magic, especially the same type of magic. The reason the teachers seem crazy awesome at magic throughout a lot of the book is not because they are incredibly powerful, but because they have sort of maxed out the power they can use into really specific things that they are good at.

By the time they face off against the FINAL BOSS LEVEL, Alice has significantly improved (more than Quentin or any of the other students except probably Penny) in her skill level, and is still has a much higher power ceiling than anyone else. That's why she can hold him off for a long time, and probably why she can sort of control herself post-niffining.

Thoughts?

Amy wrote: "Upon arriving in Fillory, they didn't employ any kind of protective or warming spells."

Grossman explains that, though mostly in passing. They need to know the circumstances in order to cast their spells, and it takes time to familiarize yourself with the surroundings.

Seth wrote: "I think some of the discussion here is sort of missing the point Grossman was trying to make about the magic. It seemed to me that there were two aspects to it: 1) innate power, and 2) skill/specia..."

That's a really interesting way to look at it. I'd say maybe 'natural ability' more than 'innate power', since I didn't see Quentin as particularly powerful, he just learned things easier. That said, I didn't get the impression that they were stronger than their teachers or even better magicians (minus Alice's ability to find the school through the wards), just that the teachers were more... self-doubting.