Christian Readers discussion

I'm about to look carefully and see if its possible to fully comply with the 10 Commandments and NOT make it to heaven.

The biggest problem with this scenario is whether the Commandments are attached to the rest of the Bible or not. For the sake of the discussion - lets pretend they are NOT.

1) Have no other god's before me.
2) No carved images or likenesses to bow down to.
3) Don't take God's name in vain.
4) Keep the Sabbath Holy
5) Honor Mom and Dad
6) No murder
7) No adultery
8) Don't steal
9) No false witnessing against neighbors
10)No coveting neighbor's donkeys...

So there they are. Can a Muslim pull these things off? Technically yes. Can someone from Judaism pull them off? I think so. Also a Mormon or Jehovah Witness.

Do you need the Holy Spirit to accomplish this?

Rod wrote: "I'm about to look carefully and see if its possible to fully comply with the 10 Commandments and NOT make it to heaven.

The biggest problem with this scenario is whether the Commandments are att..."

No on can pull this off. You have to be fulling yourself. No one, but Jesus Christ has ever done this:
Mar_12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Luk_10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
The groups you mentioned do not even have the right God. They have no chance at all. Yes you do need the Holy spirit to accomplish this, because it is not outward pretending you are keeping them, but sins of the heart. Repent or perish as I stated prior. you will lose your soul. It looks like this is a crazy bible that left some commandments out in the first place.Dangerous. coveting is more than donkeys. That is silly.What we have here is this verse: 2Timothy_2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. They are attached to salvation: Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

They show your sin to be saved and then you are not bound to them any longer, but you will die in sin if you do not get saved. Any of us or any in group you mentioned. God also hates pretense.

Rod wrote: "I'm about to look carefully and see if its possible to fully comply with the 10 Commandments and NOT make it to heaven.

The biggest problem with this scenario is whether the Commandments are att..."

I think you should be renamed Controversy King or something like that. You seem to like to start debates. In any case, I think part of the problem is your list. These are . . . very simplified versions that are used to memorize. The "real" commandments are much more complex and have more meaning.

For example:

“You shall have no other gods before Me.

“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."

Exodus 20:3-6

Those two go together because the whole idea is to keep God first. Nothing is to come before God in your life. That means no other gods for sure - no prophets claiming to be god, not putting your family or wife before God, your job, your personal ambition . . . nothing is supposed to come before your relationship and obedience to God. If you even once chose to watch football instead of going to church -- or chose to not give what you know God wanted you to because you wanted to buy something else, then you have broken these commandments -- and failed.

My Pastor once preached a message about how the 10 commandments (or the law) revealed our need for Jesus. It's a guide for our behavior sure - but more than anything it points out how much we need a Saviour. We can't do it on our own.

All of our righteousness is like dirty rags before our Holy God.

To the world: all Christian beliefs and claims are controversial. I just like to get them out in the open. See if there's any flaws in them.

And Yes, I simplified the list from the E.S.V. study Bible. I figured most of us get the basic idea of these 10.

I don't crave controversy. I love when everyone agrees on something and yet adds information that takes us deeper in our understanding. I just want info - and I enjoy being corrected on something I might have wrong.

I must preface this with the caveat that I am not only a Calvinist but a "theonomist" (one who believes the Law of God as relevant not only for moral righteousness (1 Jn 3:4-7) but for social and national order and harmony (Isa 24).

Paul makes it very clear that salvation in the form of justification is not possible by the keeping of the Law (Gal 2:15-16). The Law does have a purpose as a teacher leading the guilty sinners to find forgiveness of sin in Christ and are now no longer under its curse (Gal 3:23-26). It is not the intent of keeping the Law or the cursory maintaining of its tenets but the actual doing of the Law (active obedience as well as sins of apathy and indifference) and the Judge of All Men judges the secrets of men (Rom 2:12-16). Later Paul quotes from Psa 14 (Rom 3:11ff) to prove that no man is righteous (law-keeping and so lawless) before the Righteous God. Paul later uses both David and Abraham to prove that salvation is not by works but by faith in Jesus Christ (what he calls the righteousness of faith Rom 4). The "work of God" meaning obedience to the Law of Faith is not keeping the moral law but the Law of Faith which is only defined as faith in Jesus Christ John 6:19, 40.

No one, not he Muslim, not the Jew, not the "righteously good man can "pull the moral law off" with any definition of perfection for knowledge of the Law brings the knowledge of sin to life rendering him guilty and fully liable before God (Rom 7:7-12).

Actually, Calvin is quite good on this Institutes 2:7:3-9.

As a side note, how can we consider the Commandments of God as unattached to the rest of the Bible? Is not God the Law-Giver and the Standard of all Righteousness and Purity and don't we define righteousness and purity in legal and forensic terms? Is it not dangerous to separate the Law and render justification in Christ as not only impotent but without any true definition? If there is no law then how can we be credited with a Righteousness of Christ that is based not only on His passive obedience but His active obedience as well? How does the Cross pay for the curse of sin if there is no law?

Rod wrote: "To the world: all Christian beliefs and claims are controversial. I just like to get them out in the open. See if there's any flaws in them.

And Yes, I simplified the list from the E.S.V. study Bi..."

It's that "See if there's any flaws in them" part I have trouble with. If you are a believer and not deciding whether or not to believe, then you can always study to understand more -- but you should know that any flaw is in your understanding -- not in Christian beliefs or in what God has done or will do.

Seekers - those who have not accepted Christ -- sometimes wrestle with these kinds of questions a lot and need to have things explained to them. Sometimes a person goes through a crisis in their faith and isn't sure where they stand with God. This usually happens after some sort of trial in their life.

You don't claim any of that. You claim to be a strong Christian who just likes to discuss this kind of thing. I don't know many people who love someone and yet look to try and find weaknesses in their character or places where they aren't all they should be. At the heart of things, we are supposed to be in a relationship with God - built on love and respect.

It all comes back to what we discussed before. Who is Lord in your relationship with God? You can't call Him Lord and yet say that you don't like this and this -- and He may be wrong about that --- and this part is off . . .

In any case, I don't believe anyone can perfectly keep the commandments. I do believe they are the standards we should all be working towards. If you find someone who has actually never lied, never coveted, never put anything before God, (and so on) then I suppose you will have met Jesus face to face.

I think maybe Rod is playing devils advocate here a bit. Trying to get people to look at what they believe & why. Getting people to read scripture & apply scripture to their lives.
If you are a Christian we probably agree on how you came to be a Christian (if not we probably need to figure out why you think you are a Christian & what that word means to you). After that we don't necessarily agree on all scripture. Why do you think there are so many Christian denominations in this world? Even among certain denominations there are differing interpretations of scripture.

I believe the law is there to prove to us that we cannot ever keep the law. We are sinners!! There is only one way to heaven - that is Jesus Christ. Scripture says He is the way, the truth, the life. No man comes to the Father but by Him. However I know many Christians who believe that after salvation it is possible to live a sinless life. They believe God grants them the ability to live without sin because they are born again. They use scripture in Romans Chapters 6 & 7 to back them up. Just like I know Christians who use Acts to prove speaking in tongues or baptism in the Holy Spirit. I even know Christians who believe they can lose their salvation or give it back if they choose to.

I have been a Christian all of my adult life. There have been many times when I questioned God. Many times I thought He couldn't possibly be right. Or that surely He was way off on something that was said or done. Every time though he was proven right. I think that when we stop questioning we stop growing, learning, and needing God.

The short answer is yes. It's not all about the rules. The purpose of the law is to make relationship with God possible, to make a way to not be unclean and to do something about sin, the law was never an end in itself. If you need a verse try Isa 29:13.

Janette wrote: "I think maybe Rod is playing devils advocate here a bit. Trying to get people to look at what they believe & why. Getting people to read scripture & apply scripture to their lives.
If you are a C..."

You're right that a lot of denominations have differing views on certain issues. You're also right that Christians have times where they question their faith - or what God is doing. I said that as well. It's usually when they are baby Christians or when they are going through some kind of trial or they've witnessed something horrible that leaves them doubting the goodness of God. It's not wrong to search for answers when you have serious questions.

What bothers me a little is . . . almost a spirit of divisiveness and a kind of disrespect really to God in these discussions. It's when I see phrases like "see if there's any flaw in them" and the whole discussion about whether the God of the Bible is any better than the gods put forth in the other religions (which are described in very harsh terms) --- that doesn't seem like someone using these discussions to build up believers in the faith - but to make people question their faith.

I am not judge and jury. I like discussing my faith. I don't mind discussions about controversial things -- as long as the person really is seeking answers.

I would love to see less division among Christians. I would love to see us unite because of the things that matter - the hills worth dying on. I think that's especially important as we look around and see more and more places where Christianity isn't tolerated. We need to concentrate on what binds us together - not argue and pick each other apart on tiny details.

I think we need to show our utmost love and respect to God first and then to each other.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, not us. Therefore if our faith is in Jesus Christ, who took care of the Law, what is there to argue about?

I wonder if someone out there who is not christian might come across some of this discussion & do exactly what Rod suggests. Compare their god to our God. Search for the flaws, look for discrepancies. And find that their god lacks. Find that our God stands the test & comes out on top. I don't think the controversy is for fellow Christians. But for those who do not know our God, Those who are weak & searching.

Great responses everyone. (Thanks Janette especially.)

I spend a great deal of time chatting with people from all religions (and many atheists). My favourite question is: Why do you assume you are right?

There are many reasons people assume they are right. Mostly - "cause that's what I see and its fits my worldview." 2nd is probably: Because Mommy told me...and she's never wrong. 3rd seems to be a depressing time of life and someone offered answered that seemed correct at the time.

Right now I see an insanely large amount of confused Christians. Many don't even believe that Jesus is God. most do not fully trust the Bible. Many think good people go to heaven...and all religions are basically the same. And these are people from popular denominations that go around telling everyone they are followers of Jesus.

How do I know Christianity is TRUE? Because I challenge every aspect of it. I research it to its core. I follow every complaint and supposed contradiction that is mentioned to me.
And I challenge people from other beliefs to apply this method to their own: Most do not. Their belief systems hold up only because they are told that doubts are a failure to have stupid blind faith and Satan is behind all your doubts. This is insecure fear and guilt that keeps these religions rolling.
Christianity is a religion that holds up incredibly well under attack...did Jesus punish or embarrass Thomas because of his doubts: Not at all. We need a few Thomas's to hold out for the truth. We'd have less false religions and endless Christian sects.

The God of the universe accepts many challenges throughout the Bible. He understands that things need to be challenged and checked for credibility and Truth. Awesome eh?
Some people's spiritual gifts are to love, share, encourage...
Some are to discern and evaluate. We'd have alot less crazy charismatics and false teachers if people weren't so gullible. OR did proper research.

I'm not a perfect know it all. That's why I love bringing some issues to other believers for discussion. Thanks Johnnie for your contributions. Its always good to have a Calvinist around.
And I enjoy your challenges Margaret. We need those too!

Back to the reason for the 10 commandments:

The Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses love the 10 commandments. But they have indeed separated them from the rest of the book. Systematic theology is not their specialty.

So yes.
1)they love a god. As well as they can.
2)no general images.
3)No O.M.G.'s or disrespect for their deities name.
4)They attempt to obey the sabbath just like us.
5)lots of honoring religious Mom & Dad.
6-10)No murdering, adulturing, stealing, lying, or coveting.

So they think they've made it to the big time (Heaven).
I'm glad we agree that rules don't save us. But most religions claim they do. Tricky eh?

this reminds me of the passage from Matthew 19 when a rich man asked Jesus how can he get to heaven and it ended up with the man leaving sadly even if he obeyed the 10 commandments because Jesus asked him to give up his riches and follow Him

You know, it is good to know why we believe what we believe. When you speak to someone that isn't Christian, you need more than I believe.

In High School I opted out of other religious studies and wish now that I had not. Only to know what others believe to help them see what the truths of the Bible. I know I believe but I want to have the truth to back me up to reach the hearts of others.

In response to the 10 commandments I know you need the Holy Spirit to help us. That is why God sent someone to do that. We no longer have to go through the priest we can go to God directly.

It goes back to our heart. No one can make it to heaven. That is why we accept Christ to take our sins for us. We do not continue to live in sin but we will still sin in our human behavior. But God looks at our hearts and that is why we can never judge the heart and who will make it to heaven or hell. Only God knows.

Jocelyn quote:
" I know (what) I believe but I want to have the truth to back me up to reach the hearts of others."

I've spent years studying the doctrines and histories of Christianity and numerous other religions. I have yet to reach the heart of a person in a false religion. It's those that have walked away from a previous belief that are most in need of the basic love of God.
All those amazing Biblical facts are mostly for New Christians who need a serious foundation to stand upon. Or old Christians who should know this stuff.
Nobody should have a wimpy belief system based on fruity hopes. Otherwise we'd all be Hindu's.

When badtimes hit us its great to know our Bible is solid.


Cary quote:
"reminds me of the passage from Matthew 19 when a rich man asked Jesus how can he get to heaven..."

That passage is freaky. Isn't it weird that Jesus only touched on the last 6? Why not mention the first 4?
I think its because those deal with the love of God. Did Rich youngman loved everything but God possibly.

Jesus said "Go sell what you own..."

This man's gods and idols were his wealth and possessions. He didn't honor the first four commandments - yet he assumed he was a righteous follower of the faith.
That's what it seems like to me.

I believe it's impossible for even the most righteous person to completely obey the 10 Comandments. But, even if it was possible, that's not what gets you to Heaven anyway.

I too believe its impossible to fully accomplish the Ten commandments.

Commandments number 1 and 4 seem to be the hardest. Although sometimes its tempting to want to murder someone. :)
Having no other Gods before God. Most of us fail at that. Of course if the god of your religion is very small and insufficient - then its probably not a big deal. Or if your god is a Mormon deity who used to be human then it almost doesn't matter.

Rod wrote: "I'm about to look carefully and see if its possible to fully comply with the 10 Commandments and NOT make it to heaven.

The biggest problem with this scenario is whether the Commandments are att..." If you follow the first commandment as Jesus said "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy mind and all thy strength" and the second commandment, "to love thy neighbor as thyself", I believe the rest of them fall into place. And, yes, I believe you have to have the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ). "I will send you another counselor. . ." (Jesus) As you say, we fail, but we come closer as we practice in Him. The Holy Spirit is very patient and looks at our hearts.

No one can fully accomplish the 10 commandments. Only Christ accomplished them and through Him we can go closer to God. In the Gospel of Matthew chapter 5 Jesus says: "For I say unto you that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven". The scribes and the Pharisees were the most righteous men as they tried to accomplish every commandment, but still they could not enter the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus says that if we are not better than them, we cannot either... Unless we trust Him and let the Holy Spirit live in us.

There's a reason the first part of the Bible is called the "Old Covenant" (translated as "Testament" in English) and the new part of the Bible is called the "New Covenant". The old covenant was a law to be followed. Interestingly enough, most religions of the world gradually drift toward this thinking. If we want to beleive C.S. Lewis' statement that mankind's natural gravitation toward thoughts of Heaven are the best argument that there must be one, we must also recognize that there must be a law...but then there must also be war, adultery, human sacrifice, and all the other things humans naturally do in all cultures.

When Jesus established a new covenant, he did not lead us back to the law. I, too, have tried to understand the Mormon religion and discovered that it takes Jesus' teachings and turns them right back into a law. Now if this were divine thinking, then all religions that gravitate back to law would be equal. But if the concept of law were a fallen, man-made covenant, then we're all in trouble when we gravitate back to it.

Why do we love "law" so much? Because once we know it, we know how to break it. Right now scientists all over the world are trying to understand the laws of physics...so they can break them. We want to defy gravity. We want to defy atomic construction. We want to defy life and death.