Christian Readers discussion

Ok, is it me or are there a lot of very silly, even argumentative topics in this group? I rarely see something noteworthy but things that uneducated Christians or perhaps non-Christians who are pretending to be Christians would say or ask. Are we really this uninformed about our own beliefs? Or are there truly a lot of new Christians or just secular individuals in this group? Either is ok, I'm just confused when I see notifications on different topics (this is over the last few months I've been here).

I agree!

It's not just you.

My experience has been (not just in this group either) that alot of Christians are very uninformed about their our beliefs. Many take what is said from the pulpit or by well meaning individuals as automatic truth. Never bothering to ask questions or even study what God's word says on a subject. When tested or questioned themselves they spout scripture out of context or just get angry & argumentative about the subject rather than trying to find truth or argue truth.
2 Timothy 2:15 says: Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The sad truth is many people who claim to be Christians only open their Bible on Sunday morning in church (some not even then). They base their entire Christian life on what others say a Christian is. :(

Janette wrote: "My experience has been (not just in this group either) that alot of Christians are very uninformed about their our beliefs. Many take what is said from the pulpit or by well meaning individuals as..."

thanks for everyones replies so I'm not crazy. Y'know Janette, i think that's so sad but also i really shouldn't be surprised. I was somewhat in that group too about 7 yrs ago. I guess I've forgotten that mindset is prevalent. I wonder how do we change this? Ideas? How can we help those on this group to be stronger minded Christians?

Janette wrote: "My experience has been (not just in this group either) that alot of Christians are very uninformed about their our beliefs. Many take what is said from the pulpit or by well meaning individuals as..."

I agree...

I think we have to be careful as well. People may have genuine questions and where do you ask questions if not to other believers? We want them to ask questions...

I think the only way to help people be stronger is to have conversation that have a constructive outcome. (Many times there are varying points of view, which can be confusing). We should always be prepared to help others with what the word of God says!

Good conversation!

I think the tone of the conversation is important. It should always be respectful of God and try to . . . uplift, educate, and encourage (exhort) other believers.

We have no excuse for not reading and understanding the Word of God. It is a sad state when the opinions of others trumps Scripture.

What most people say are their opinions. We've gone from standing upon what Scripture says to this is what is means to me. The problem grows when others reinforce that notion rather than point out the wrongness of opinion by using Scripture.

Margaret, I understand and appreciate your sentiment of being respectful, but there are times to admonish by saying opinions don't cut it.

Shawn wrote: "We have no excuse for not reading and understanding the Word of God. It is a sad state when the opinions of others trumps Scripture.

What most people say are their opinions. We've gone from stand..."

don't. yes and there is a balance between admonishing and exhorting.

Yep, you're right, Rose - I meant "don't" cut it.

:P

My "respectful" was towards God. I was concerned with those conversations myself because I thought they might be divisive and the person seemed to like to stir up controversy for the sake of debate - and possibly even to question the Christian faith itself because he would say things like "see if there is any flaws in them" (about Christian beliefs) and how he was comparing God to the gods of other religions and if He punished people in Hell, then He was just like those other gods -- and not at all what he had thought God was.

I called him on it and was attacked myself.

I don't have any problem answering genuine questions from people who really want to know the answers. I agree we should continue to learn and grow.

Completely agree, Margaret. The first sentence about the 'tone' led me to believe you meant respectful of each other about God - not directed towards God. Thanks for clarifying. :)

I've had a few of those conversation myself with "trolls" among Christian groups and forums, whose sole purpose is to stir up contention. When it becomes obvious, I give a stern warning and drop out. You can't argue with someone like that.

Shawn wrote: "Completely agree, Margaret. The first sentence about the 'tone' led me to believe you meant respectful of each other about God - not directed towards God. Thanks for clarifying. :)

I've had a few ..."

My Pastor stresses to not argue with non-believers but to state the facts with Scripture as they are willing to listen, then be the example of Christ.

Here is my problem (and I am truly NOT trying to stir up contention or trouble):
The reason I joined this group was because of some of the discussion groups on here. I want and need to hear where our beliefs are being defeated or standing ground. I actually like having my faith challenged. We as Christians are coming up on a very scary time. I fear we need to stand our ground alot better than we do. If we don't I think we may lose all religious freedom that we have.
I tend to get a little upset when I see Christians attach other believers just for their thought process or the way they put truth about God together. It's like because they are Christian, they feel everyone else who is Christian should look feel & process everything the same exact way. That everything Christian should be peace, love, & forgiveness (all attributes of God). However, God did not intend for us to just sit back & become so complacent about Christianity that we can't defend our own faith when we come under attach. If we can't discuss contention with other Christians or we refuse to look at our faith the way outsiders do, how will we ever be able to lead outsiders to Christ? Being an example will only go so far when outsiders see us as weak in our faith unable to defend simple doctrine because we don't want to appear to be stirring up trouble.
Are any of you familiar with Detreich Bonhoeffer? or any of his teachings or thought process? I have just started to read a Biography about his life so I do not pretend to know everything there is to know about the man. However, he was a Pastor & theological student in Germany during the time of Hitler. He was a great man of God. As I am reading his biography I realize that many of his thought patterns come from the outside going into & ending with God. He had a very systematic, scientific, agnostic way of going about finding truth. Some peoples minds just work that way.
Maybe the discussion is not meant to stir up anything. Maybe that man just wants you to confirm what he knows about God. Maybe he's looking for loopholes in worldly thought processes that would give him opportunity to share Christ with unbelievers who would never dare to allow a Christian to share otherwise.
I believe this type of discussion does have value. I don't believe it is trying to tear down God at all. As a matter of fact I think the opposite.

Janette, I don't think any of us are dismissing good, health 'debate' - since iron sharpens irons, as Scripture says. It's when the discussion becomes unprofitable, demeans Christ and can possibly damaging to our witness that is is time to withdraw.

Jesus even said don't cast your pearls before swine least they turn around an 'rent' you. This is where wisdom and spiritual discernment comes into play. Each of us has a different level of tolerance for 'wrangling' with words. I have a low tolerance, thus I don't tend to go on very long in heated or destructive discussions. Some are more merciful and will argue in hopes of winning the debatee.

But which one a believer is and however long they choose to discuss a topic, when the end comes, all any of us can do is trust God for He said His Word - not our words - will not return void. Whether for salvation, chastening or even judgement - that is for God to decide.

Yep, challenging people is a tricky business. We are indeed an interesting group of Christian thinkers. Probably because we actually read about our faith and have an interest in Christianity outside of our church.

I just finished Dietrich Bonhoeffer book (by Eric Metaxas)
My favorite line in that book was: If you weren't arguing with Bonhoeffer then you weren't his friend.

Now read through the Bible: how many of God's chosen folks had confrontational lives? Especially his messengers and prophets? And Jesus as well.
I'm probably none of those. I just love theology and what we get out of God's word. To the point where I want to pull out of everyone else what they are getting.

The difficulty with this is many people are not using the Bible in the same way. And many maybe don't need to. If your gift is compassion or sharing or uplifting then you will use the Bible very differently than a person who is comparing religions and dealing with Doctrines and facts coming at us from the numerous cults and false religions surrounding us. And that is my main passion.
If someone is dealing with foreign orphans or relief work in underprivileged locations then Forcefully standing up for God's word against lies and deceit (and poor scholarship) is not really a tool you need.

Anyway, show me a time when there is NOT humor in my posts and I will be shocked. Most people are upset that I ask very passionate questions. This has nothing to do with my absolute belief (and researched facts) that the Bible is indeed the word of God. These questions are the ones I get asked daily by Atheists, Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses etc...and mostly confused Christians who attend very uneducated Churches.

I don't have time for a Bible study. (location, children, work hours) so these questions ARE my Bible studies.
I believe there is no better Bible study than having someone say to you: "Your God is evil, the Bible even says so!"
Now as a Christian, your job is to carefully and FACTUALLY prove them wrong. THat's where humor and skepticism will help you get to the core of theology and sharing the truth with those who want answers.

In order to minister to someone: you must be able to seriously consider their questions. And understand where they are coming from. And sometimes that is not a pleasant place. I spend alot of time trying to look at Christianity from the outside. I only do that because I know exactly what's on the inside.

Fun eh? I got lots more questions for you all. And some of you won't like them. But your answers are a blessing because I bet others are thinking the same thing yet too embarrassed to actually ask.

You Rock Janette. I love your posts and thoughts.


Tone is a fascinating thing. The problem with written word is that tone can be assumed or perceived. Its seldom written into the sentences.

Hi guys

A few observations on this debate. I think I'm broadly with Janette and Rod on this, and I also completely agree with Shawn when she says we need a lot of wisdom and discernment. A few points:

1. We each need to decide whether our questions, and especially our wrestling with God (a wholly legitimate activity) should be done privately with the support of a counsellor / pastor / friend, or can be done in this forum. That requires wisdom, and I do appreciate that these forums might be the only place to bring stuff up. Perhaps there should be a separate space here for people who want to discuss issues aside from within the context of books.

2. Don't we all need masses of grace and love to deal with this stuff! I have found that a lot of the contention I faced, including during a period when I served as a pastor, was diffused by just trying to see the other persons point of view, and also their world view, even if I didn't agree with it. Then it often came to just loving the person. I remember once how the simple act of praying for someone seemed to 'break' the contention between us, I'm grateful to God for that moment :-)

3. As an author and writing tutor I sometimes encourage writers to "be real don't be polite". I think there is precedent in scripture for this. We can't afford to fall in to a collective unreality in which anger, passion, conflict, pain, and reconciliaiton can't be discussed, and instead the only thing allowed is a kind of fake triumphalism or even an authentic debate about being victorious in our lives. We have to be as real as the holy men and women of the bible were, and even as Jesus was.

4. I feel sorry for any of you moderators who have to deal with people who are just out to cause controversy or be offensive for the sake of it - shame on them! And God bless the people who have to shepherd these discussions.

Blessings!

Andy

If it makes you feel any better, Christians are not the only group who are defamed by imitators. Try holding an open discussion on homeschooling and an illiterate horde of "homeschoolers" come out of the woodwork to leave pointless, gramar-less, punctuation-less comments about how they love being "homskewld". They're not fooling anybody.

As for what the masses know of Christianity:
In the latter part of his book, How the Irish saved Civilization, Thomas Cahill describes an encounter where superstitious peasants dipped a very ancient and valuable Bible manuscript into a pot of cow tonic in order to give the potion "magical" healing properties. I have kids in my own Sunday School class who think Christianity is just like that--magic. Look at the way churches are depicted in video games--they are synonymous with pagan shrines and temples. Who wouldn't have a confused idea of Christianity?

It is our duty to show a faith that does not fall into the same rut of human understanding as all those other religions out there. We don't need rituals and sacrifices. We don't need a temple. We don't need a theo-political epicenter or a human ruler to tell us who to fight and who to follow. What we need to do is show our personal relationship with a living and present God--and share it with those around us on all seven days of the week.

Another interesting book that comes to mind is Venti Jesus. It does well to address the difference between "real" Christians and what the public eye sees (or is allowed to see).

Thanks Robert. I'll have to look for Venti Jesus. Very interesting.

That seems to be the problem Kristine. I've heard a few studies that say probably 10% of Christians actually study their Bible.

Although there are millions of Christians attending Bible studies - these usually involves how the Bible is supposed to speak to them in their busy modern life. These are not Bible studies, these are self help groups.

I just waded into a comment thread hosted by my hometown newspaper because of a similar problem. Somebody was claiming to be a Christian, then dropping explicatives amid his comments and complaining how other Christians were hypocrites because they were not following his interpretation of scriptures. It was clear by his words that his interpretation of scripture was poorly informed.

I feel kind of bad but I basically had to point out the evidence in his own statement that showed that he and his buddies were not Christians and in fact had no idea what Christianity was really about. It seems kind of self-righteous and clique-ish to ostracise somebody from our faith, but considering the kind of impression these guys were leaving in the minds of other readers, I wasn't going to let them get away with it un-challenged.

Incidentally, (as in the case of the "Homskewld" commentors I mentioned before) it is often an easy step to check the person's profile to see if their behavior (bad grammar, in the case of homeschooling) matches what they say about themselves on the more permanent side. Even my pre-teen son was able to investigate one such "poser" in his online adventures. Perhaps more vigilance is necessary if we are to avoid an opinion among the masses that is biased by such false impressions of our faith.

Is there a term for these kinds of people? I'm new to the cyber world, but there must be a term for people who pose as members of a certain group or ideal so that their subsequent behavior makes that group or ideal look bad. The Bible warns us to be on the lookout for wolves, but "Cyber-wolf" seems almost too glamourous. CyberLycanthrope lends to the idea that they are not what they seem, and that they are dangerous, but it just doesn't seem accurate. It could apply as much to an avatar asking for my bank account information as a pseudo-christian slandering my faith with his intentionally hypocritical behavior.

Does anybody know if there is a word for that?

I agree also, it is not just you. I am not sure what to post or if to post.

After reading others' posts to this "discussion" I realized what many have said concerning this issue. Sometimes, I believe, at least for me, we react before we actually go to God for discernment. I have a big problem with this. I agree with Andrew's post. I also liked what Janette had to say among all of the others'. I am learning so much right now reading everyone's posts and their feelings, and thoughts on this subject.

As far as responding to people, when they start attacking I'm gone. Rod is asking a lot of questions here respectfully, which makes it seem he is a seeker or a new believer. I have no problem with those kind of debates. If he starts telling us we are all idiots then I would feel differently.

I ask alot of questions because no one else seems to. Many New Christians are not being challenged. Many people who assume they have been christians for decades may be in for the shock of a lifetime if they are not confronted on their theology and obedience.

I have been a Christian over 30 years. Went to Bible college for a few years. Worked in Churches over the decades. Still very involved.
In all this i've learned that most christians just don't think or ask themselves deep questions about their faith. They believe what little they are told and seldom explore their Bible.

Its amazing how people are taught to be afraid to ask questions or challenge God. Not challenge God as if he's wrong - but for answers that will build their faith and help understand the Bible.

I have spent the last decade chatting with atheists who distrust Christianity. They have 1000's of questions that deserve to be addressed. From supposed Biblical contradictions to moral issues. Its great to know that there are answers to all those questions. God does not expect us to run on blind stupid faith that has no logic or facts. (like many charismatics would like us to believe)

We are at war for the Truth. I enjoy being on the side of truth and confronting people about their beliefs. Its amazing watching people respond to questions. Fascinating.

I don't know how much many of you chat on the net? If you have the time it is enlightening - and maddening.

Every single time I go to any Christian chat room I quickly find out I am in a world of chaos. I see everything from:

A total lack of discussion about theology and Biblical related issues.
An endless supply of false cults and beliefs.
Most people don't believe that Jesus is GOD.
People that think Christianity just leads to nice tolerance that gets everyone to heaven eventually.
Pathetically liberal Christianity is the norm.
All religions eventually lead to heaven.

Our churches are failing. People are not being taught what the Bible says and how to defend and understand the Word of God. I ask questions to see how people are doing, and what's really on their hearts.
God is always answering my questions - just not always in the order I would like.

Cindy wrote: "I agree also, it is not just you. I am not sure what to post or if to post."

In regards to reacting too quickly, I have learned not to hit the send button when angry. At the same time, hesitation in speaking once cost me the life of a childhood friend. I have learned that when the spirit moves me, sometimes I have to act fast. In this case, however, I typed up my response, waited a good six hours, then returned to the thread to find that it had gotten worse. At that point, I asked my wife (she does all my editing) for her opinion of what I was going to say before hitting the send button.

Pat W. wrote: "As far as responding to people, when they start attacking I'm gone. Rod is asking a lot of questions here respectfully, which makes it seem he is a seeker or a new believer. I have no problem with ..."

I agree with a lot of what is written - and I think I have said almost the exact same thing you said. If someone has a genuine question, then I am all for them asking it - and I would love to help them find the answers.

However, Rod claims he isn't the seeker or baby Christian. He doesn't even want answers to most (if not all) the questions he asks. All he wants to do is start debates in order to challenge our thinking. He takes the position that he's the teacher -- making all us sluggards think about our faith for the very first time.

Then he adds in that he's making sure God is really better than anything else out there, and that he can justify his answers to all his atheist friends - who seem to be better able to defend their answers than most Christians. Is this really the attitude of someone who is building up the faith with humility and has respect and love for God -- treating Him as Lord?

If you backtrack, you'll see I participated in several discussions before I got frustrated and questioned why he was asking all these questions and the way he was doing it. That's because I LOVE sharing about my faith. I have an entire library in my home and usually relish any and all discussions having to do with Christianity (unless they come from trolls).

I also agree that we shouldn't answer in anger. Patience should reign.

I don't know what responses were deemed inappropriate, but if it was something I said, then I apologize for any offense. I don't think I said anything I would take back. Most of the time I quoted conversations.

Like I don't believe Rod's statement in this thread "Not challenge God as if he's wrong -" is accurate.

He has stated that:

"So far I have never had to judge God Margaret. But I do read the Bible very carefully to understand him. My goal is to clearly see the difference between the God of the Bible vs. the Islamic, Hindu, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Charismatic chaos and those gods of the numerous cults.

I very much need to disagree with the gods of other religions. If the Christian God is not perfect in his Love and Justice then I need a God that is."

"To the world: all Christian beliefs and claims are controversial. I just like to get them out in the open. See if there's any flaws in them."
(emphasis mine)

Again, I apologize if I'm part of the problem. I think just as Rod talked about watered down faith and too much tolerance in the churches, we should be able to call it when we think someone might be talking disrespectfully about God or being divisive. Too many churches and groups have been broken up because nobody would say to someone that they couldn't talk that way.

I didn't think debating Christianity was the purpose of this group.

Margaret wrote: "Pat W. wrote: "As far as responding to people, when they start attacking I'm gone. Rod is asking a lot of questions here respectfully, which makes it seem he is a seeker or a new believer. I have n..."The last comment he made kind of made me wonder about his motives, too. I decided not to respond to his comments again.

Margaret wrote: "Pat W. wrote: "As far as responding to people, when they start attacking I'm gone. Rod is asking a lot of questions here respectfully, which makes it seem he is a seeker or a new believer. I have n..."

I definitely see your point of view on this. And I can see how some comments might be taken as inflammatory, even disrespectful.

I personally did not take offense to the way the comments were made. I found them to be harmless statements - not disrespectful to God. I thought they were challenging, motivational to me to check what I believe & why I believe it & how to present it to someone who maybe doesn't know God or who has little/no reference point for coming to God.

I am more offended (I think God is too) when I see all inclusive, watered down version of who & what God is. I think we should be thicker skinned about questioning God than we are about a watered down gospel that lets anyone in because God is all LOVE & rainbows. In the end, a strong stance on theology is gonna get more people into Heaven than a Tolerant "Everybody counts - Don't stir the waters" belief system.

Matthew 10:16 says: Behold I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

margaret quote:
"I didn't think debating Christianity was the purpose of this group. "

I didn't think I would be doing any of that here. But immediately I found numerous people with different theologies. So it begins...

I don't know everything. I am constantly searching for understanding about supposed Biblical contradictions and literary challenges. But I do know questions. Whoever asks the most and the best questions will probably walk away the better for it.
Sometimes things I think I know the answer to may not have been fully explored.

I thought maybe this group could be a Christian think tank. I guess not for some of you.

What are my motives: The truth and sharing it. which just so happens to be The Word of God and Christ's deity. I'm not here to be nice. But it happens :)

Janette wrote: "My experience has been (not just in this group either) that alot of Christians are very uninformed about their our beliefs. Many take what is said from the pulpit or by well meaning individuals as..."

I am new to this group, and this is the first topic I clicked on. I have to agree with you on this Janette. Seems like not only in Christianity but in Politics and other things, People are only saying what they have heard rather then forming their own opinions based on study.

Welcome Callie.
I look forward to your opinions based on your studies.

We haven't really been talking much here. I'm guessing many don't actually like to explore their beliefs. It can be hard on the heart and the head.

Yes I agree! I have found it difficult to question what I was taught as a child. I am 28 and just now questioning things. My dad was a Baptist preacher. My grandfather too! I have talk to them both about what I am going through. They both seem to agree that it's part of growing up. Not only physically and mentally, but spiritually as well. They have both encouraged me to continue on my "quest for enlightenment". That's what my grandpa calls it. LOL!!

Very awesome Callie: Question everything. :)

It seems we do eventually have a time in our life when we start challenging and exploring our beliefs.
I've done this ever since I realized some of my Catholic friends disagreed on numerous Biblical and theological issues from me.

Now 30 years later I am aware that Most Christians seem to disagree on just about everything. So I tried to find out who agree's with the Bible. First I had to start clearly understanding the Bible myself (that'll take the rest of my life, but every step is enlightening).
Now i've found many Bible teachers that I love and trust: Ravi Zacharius, Chuck Swindoll, John MacArthur, Greg Laurie, Billy Graham, R.C. Sproul.
But none of those teacher's are perfect. They disagree on a few minor issues. So the ultimate test is up to me to decide. And I've decided to stick to the Bible. What an adventure that's lead to.

I hope what you are GOING through never stops. I too want enlightenment in all Truth. Sometimes the Truth hurts.

I too hope I go through this for the rest of my life! I have never been closer to God! I pray more then I ever have! Reading the Bible is no longer a "Christian Duty" to me. It is a joy! Maybe this is one of the reasons approaching age 30 is so hard for some people? I know a lot of people in there 40's and older who look back and say, "Yes." I have asked everyone! I at first felt like I was doing something wrong. The natural thing for me to do is ask people older then me what they think. I am glad I have people around me who embraced their questions at my age.
Thanks For your encouragement!

I heard a wonderful thing recently:

"If reading the Word of God is no longer a chore (or Christian duty) but is a joy and excitement that won't go away. That is a sign that you truly are saved and the Holy Spirit is working in you."

The scary part is people who claim to be saved yet have no desire to devour God's word. They should seriously consider their eternal salvation. It is safe to say we are all growing...But there is a time when everyone needs to chose where their passions truly are.

I have enjoyed the Bible for many years. But it wasn't until the last few that I really got passionate about what God has said to us through the ages.
________________________________________________

Callie you may get discouraged by all the people you ask for input. Truth is a challenge. God allows people's hearts to guide them off-track. I have to stop and check my heart often.
I always remind myself to continue trying to want what God wants.

I think it is important to study the Bible and learn for ourselves what it says, not just depend on what someone else says. I also agree that when we see a brother or sister being led astray, we should "speak the truth in love". Therefore, if a believer has an honest question, we should be ready and willing to give an honest answer with Scripture.

That being said, I think we, as Christians, need to be careful not to become so distracted arguing among ourselves that we lose track of our purpose here on earth. There is a battle to be fought and souls to lead to the Lord. If we're spending all our time debating which views are correct and which are not, who's out there reaching the lost? Yes, we must know what we believe, and we must believe the truth that can be backed up with Scripture. But then we need to take that truth to the world.

I've been on too many forums where Christians are downright fighting about everything under the sun. Where's the love of God? Where's the fruit of the Spirit? I think it's a ploy Satan uses to get us distracted and sidetracked. After all, in his eyes, the best type of Christian is an ineffective one. Let's be careful, my friends.

Dana wrote: "I think it is important to study the Bible and learn for ourselves what it says, not just depend on what someone else says. I also agree that when we see a brother or sister being led astray, we s..."

Very good point. :)

Good point Dana. Should we be distracted arguing amongst ourselves? Personally I don't have a simple answer to that.

Christianity is out of control and divided by lies, personal revelation, charismatic and conservative beliefs. Liberal and traditional scholars pushing and pulling the Bible. Some Christians claiming that Jesus is all we need - others claiming that Jesus isn't really God, just another prophet, or is actually the angel Michael.

Is truth important? Some people would say: NO, all we need is the general idea and everything will be okay.

There was a day when Christians had to have serious discussions about everything from the divinity of Jesus to the canon of scripture. And these things upset people back then. But truth had to be pondered and researched - and questioned.

How far do we let our churches go into Biblical and theological illiteracy? Some would say: ALL THE WAY. As long as everyone is happy and loving Jesus.

Some will be dragged away happily loving the Mormon Jesus, the Buddhist Jesus, the Jehovah Witness Jesus, the Hindu Jesus, the Charismatic Jesus of Prosperity, the New Age Jesus. I've seen this happen.

Someone needs to join our theologians of old and carry on protecting the truth. Definitely not everyone. But a few.