Heathens, Pagans and Witches discussion

I've always wondered how many pagans whose path takes them in this direction are comfortable with the title 'Witch', and how many would prefer to leave the negative associations of the old word behind.

So, do you reclaim and embrace the title, inform those interested or misguided of its true meaning, or choose to inhabit a different one? And if this is not your path, how would you feel if it were?

Like the real world, witch has positive and negative associations. How one reacts to them is individual but I think the use of witch by a person will reveal much about them in the context of the use rather than in the actual word itself. I see a witch as a wise woman - not an idealized romantic nor a satan-worshipping denizen of evil. Because of its range of interpretations I find its use helpful in determining the intent of the user.

I have no problem embracing the word. The past has shaped what it has become today.

Neill wrote: " How one reacts to them is individual but I think the use of witch by a person will reveal much about them in the context of the use rather than in the actual word itself. I see a witch as a wise woman...
Because of its range of interpretations I find its use helpful in determining the intent of the user. "

Yes, I so agree about the context of the word when a person applies it to themselves - in a way that was the subtext of the question. It could be seen almost as a challenge or as defiance in the face of what the word has evolved to mean. There's the risk of attracting ridicule or inspiring unease to be considered too. The ways of witches are many and varied, yet the way in which a person uses the word can reveal much about them.

Terri wrote: I have no problem embracing the word. The past has shaped what it has become today.

I think the past has helped to shape what the word 'witch' has come to mean to many today, but the blame for the majority of its negative aspects lies in the laps of witch hunters and writers of fiction like the Brothers Grimm and William Shakespeare.

I like Wise Woman, but to call oneself 'wise' feels arrogant and not entirely true. Green Woman feels good, and truer, more accurate for me, although 'twould be better if the Green Party hadn't appropriated half of it first.

I think the most uncomfortable thing about the word, especially to someone who didn't grow up Pagan, is trying to tell someone that you are or are trying to become a witch and that you practice witchcraft. Because they don't really understand what you mean when you say that, at least not in the full depth of what you are trying to say, it causes that communication rift.

Personally, I am happy to use it freely when I'm talking to people who wouldn't give me weird looks about it. Unfortunately those people are few and far between in my real life.

I remember practitioners in earlier days of reclamation of the title (about the 1970s), would call themselves 'white witches' and seek publicity, either to educate or to promote books or courses. I think the serious ones helped, although some seemed almost like caricatures and may have attracted seekers of notoriety. However you look at it, however it was gained, there is power in the word itself.

It's sad that there are few people who wouldn't react without a weird look - possibly one of the reasons why even Solitary practitioners occasionally feel the need to gather or meet.

Any reticence I have comes from the fact that the Witch Trials do not lie in the distance past. There are countries where they still label women Witches, and burn them as a result (New Guinea being a good example).

To me Witch means wise woman. I would hope to be wise one day.

I don't use the term in reference to myself, though I use those hidden practices often associated with it. If someone wants to refer to themselves as one, it's fine by me, but I would prefer to use a different word.

Georgina wrote: "Any reticence I have comes from the fact that the Witch Trials do not lie in the distance past. There are countries where they still label women Witches, and burn them as a result (New Guinea being a good example."

And there's no guarantee that toleration will endure, even in the places where it exists now. I hope to be wise one day too. :)

Ancestral wrote: "I don't use the term in reference to myself, though I use those hidden practices often associated with it. If someone wants to refer to themselves as one, it's fine by me, but I would prefer to use a different word."

Unless one is asked a direct question, there's no need to classify oneself at all. The Census is really the only time, with pagan festivals and gatherings possibly the second most likely occasions, but I'm guessing at the latter, as I have to admit that I'm such a solitary creature that I've never been to one.

With the census,I usually put pagan - polytheist for religion, as I do not associate witchcraft with religion, but rather see it as a practice, or art.

I agree, and usually put 'pagan' too - it's just that in thinking about situations in which direct questions are asked I came to the tentative conclusion that in real life (rather than online), there are very few.

Nell wrote: "I agree, and usually put 'pagan' too - it's just that in thinking about situations in which direct questions are asked I came to the tentative conclusion that in real life (rather than online), the..."

Yes, I put Pagan too.

I have been asked in real life situations several times, including once on a holiday tour, and I stated my dislike of the term. Some of my friends who practice the art will inform others I am a "witch" which I politely deny.

Yes, I have had plenty of people call me a Witch (sometimes in a derogatory way), but I don't use the term to describe myself.

Ancestral, Georgina, that's interesting and surprising - at least to me - but then I probably lead a comparatively secluded life.

Nell wrote: "Ancestral, Georgina, that's interesting and surprising - at least to me - but then I probably lead a comparatively secluded life."

The comment usually comes from men. I'm outspoken (despite the fact that I'm a recluse) and a Pagan, they put the two together...

I don't want to sound sexist here, but it strikes me that there could be more of a sexual element in the comment than if a woman had made it.

I must admit I have never encountered prejudice, or aggravation as a polytheist, or as a practitioner of the occult.

This has been a good thread for me to watch because, being rather new to this, I have yet to have a name for what I would call myself or really even my beliefs beyond "Pagan" which of course covers a wide range.

I work at a used book store, so tend to buy whatever I can get on the subjects of paganism and witchcraft as it comes into the store. While I do not consider myself Wiccan (at least not as of yet), many of the books I can find are Wicca-specific, so "witch" becomes a term I am used to reading a lot.

One of the reasons I shy away from "the witch word" is because it seems too ... political, I guess is the word I'm looking for? What I mean is that, much of what I'm reading states that, even if you are a Solitary practitioner, and even if you have been so for decades, many people in the Wiccan community won't recognize you due to their own tradition's beliefs.

I completely understand that a coven in a certain tradition wouldn't just let someone in without going through their own initiatory process, but that they would consider a Solitary's spiritual state completely not valid is a little disheartening to me. Those same politics are why I'm hesitant to try and seek a coven or something like it in my area. I really don't like politics and spirituality to mix in my life.

Regarding comments from men vs. women, in my own life they seem to react the same - trying to act supportive but being a tick sarcastic about it. But, to be honest, they're sarcastic about everything... And then there are a few friends and my partner who are fully supportive while passing no judgments either way.

I agree with Nell that those comments sound rather charged ... Do you find it hard to keep your cool when that happens, Georgina?

Yes, especially when it seems clear that they mean to say a similar word, starting with a "B'. :) I have had the comment in a supportive way though, the difference is in the inflection of the word and the attitude of those saying it.

I'm a solitary creature too. I have been invited to join covens, but I'm a non ritual person. I like the term Pagan as it is so broad and accepting. I steer clear of belief structures. I defend my right to change at any given time, belief structures can be rigid.

I'm a solitary creature too. I have been invited to join covens, but I'm a non ritual person. I like the term Pagan as it is so broad and accepting. I steer clear of belief structures. I defend my right to change at any given time, belief structures can be rigid. ..."

I love your description, Georgina. The Path may be long and winding, there are obstacles to be negotiated and sometimes the light seems to fail and it's hard to see a way through the trees. But it can be unique and personal to each - for me that's the beauty of being pagan.

Absolutely :):)

I think that many associate 'witch' with Harry Potter and let's face it, we are not walking around mending glasses with a wand and a spell. I get laughs when I say I am a witch, but I only share it with people I know will give me the opportunity to explain what it means. I embrace the term.

Hi Marina. I wonder if JK Rowling can have succeeded in putting a more positive spin on the word 'witch'? I have to confess that I've never read any of the Harry Potter books, but 'mending glasses with a wand and a spell' has to be an improvement on all the 'evil' stuff.

It's interesting that you say: I only share it with people I know will give me the opportunity to explain what it means. I embrace the term. In a way the two statements feel slightly contradictory, but I can understand it as meaning that you embrace it to yourself - step into it rather than reject it.

Thanks for all the shades of thought on this thread, everyone.

I get why it might sound contradictory, but you got what I meant. For me I embrace the term, I don't mind calling myself a witch. I share it with those that give me the chance to explain rather than ridicule me, but I am a private person by default.

Oh JKR definitely has succeeded with that, witches are cool now, BUT it is the whole fantasy that is connected with it. You should give them a try. It is a great read and watch too.

Maybe, when I get the time, but I have this passion to learn as much as possible about the things that interest me, so I'm more of a non-fiction/mythology person these days.

I don't mind being referred to as a "witch" as long as the person isn't being nasty about it. My boyfriend bought me a True Blood t-shirt that has "Bruja" on it, and I thought it was cute, and I wasn't offended by it.

I'm reading the first Harry Potter book right now, and so far I'm okay with it.

I've just found a link to an excellent and relevant blog post at Necropolis Now on another thread, and thought it worth posting here too. Interview with Professor Ronald Hutton . Some of the comments below are well worth reading too.

Thanks for that link, Nell! That was a really interesting interview. I never read anything by Ron Hutton. I'll have to check him out.

There's an essay by him in the next group book read: Paganism Today: Wiccans, Druids, the Goddess and Ancient Earth Traditions for the Twenty-First Century.

It's a collection of writings on paganism by different authors. I love the cover, and the contents are pretty good too.

I personally love the word "witch" for both it's positive, and negative connotations. Wicca originally meant "The one who knows" didn't it?

I distinguish between witches and Pagan Priestesses in that there is something a bit rogue about the word "witch". It is usually associated with solitary women, following their own ideals and flouting society. A pagan priestess strikes me as sort of humble and reverent. A witch conjures up images of independent women, with fierce ideals and a slightly feral quality. To me it speaks of "Wild Woman" more than "Wise Woman" but this is just my personal point of view.

I find it fascinating that at least three of the women commenting on this thread confessed to being solitary sorts of people.

Good or bad, the word has always commanded respect, and even the evil stereotypes promoted by Shakespear and Grimm, do depict the witches as powerful and fearless, and hats off to Shakespear for remembering the illustrious Goddess Hecate.

It's interesting to me, that the two professions which actually afforded women some independence from men, in ancient times, have been reviled so viciously throughout history. I say "interesting", but I mean galling.



I thought I'd add one of my paintings here to punctuate my rant. Edited to show the completed version, with the familiar which I think is bleeping wicked.

The most vexing thing I find about the term "witch" is the Christian insistence that it has something to do with their devil. As if any self respecting witch would submit herself to the villain of Christianity. Please!

That's a powerful painting, Aaron. I like your definitions too - 'feral' seems just the right word for a particular sort of witch, but I can't help feeling that the spectrum was (and is) wide and colourful.

I think the idea of association with Old Nick came about due to confusion with Cernunnos, but power and control was almost certainly at the depth of things.

Amazing painting, Aaron!

I agree Nell, power and control were at the depth of things. New forms of social control were emerging during the Renaissance, births death and marriages more tightly monitored. Midwives and folk healers found themselves in conflict with doctors and priests.

In America the trials and their victims, centered around land issues. In England it was more to do with unwanted, landless, outspoken old women, past their usefulness when they were no longer of a child bearing age.

Foccult talks about this increasing control of society in Madness and Civilisation.

It wasn't just 'witches' who were targeted but also gay men (hence the horrible term 'faggot' as in faggot of wood with which to burn them) and the insane.

The church of course, cut it's teeth on the heretics in the Inquisition then moved onto others when that madness passed. Did you know psychiatry did the same with the possession cases in Europe (especially France)? The psychiatry couch fits into this time.

I could rave on for hours about it, as I spent quite a few years looking into it. The Demonologists and their devils (based on past Pagan Gods, definitely Cernunnos amongst them, but also Pan, Hermes, Baal, to name a few) merely added 'stories' to provide more obvious excuses for the public. Woodcut pamphlets fed the common people's fear and roused their morbid excitement.

Oh and in terms of the Great Solar Year and astrology, the superstition belonged to Pisces, the need to control and regulate, Virgo.

Someone stop me! Seriously talk about raving, Gina! (And I'm sure you already know this, so I'm raving to myself!)

I am a witch and Pagan as well as other things. The term witch is just a simple designation to me, not signifying Good or evil, or a specific type of practitioner. Nell is close comparing Ol' nick to Cernunnos. The church in ancient times, demonized Cernunnos turning him into Lucifer. When you see the images of Lucifer with the horns and all, it is a direct representation of Cernunnos. This is the same thing that happened with the witch. A true witch has never nor will ever have anything to do with Satan or demons and devils. The church created this image of us.

Georgina, just to mention, don't forget about the part ergot had to play in the Salem witch trials. I thought it was very interesting that they'd been unknowingly getting themselves high on the mold of rye and accusing others of witchcraft. It was a classic example of humane frailty.

What offends me is that they never bothered about Hecate, who is a personal favourite of mine. What, wasn't she dangerous enough? They had to fixate on Pan and Hermese, as if the only relevant archetype can be a male divinity?

Not sure about the ergot idea, some of the books I've read have been discredited it, but they certainly indulged in some mass mania. Not ruling it out though. Funny how that mania benefitted key families.

My two favourite books on the subject are: Salem Possessed: The Social Origins of Witchcraft and Salem Story: Reading the Witch Trials of 1692, both close readings, looking at the demographics, and social origins of the trials. What I do know is that Increase and Cotton Mather are high on my list of infamous pricks.

Yes, Hecate is one of my favourites too! Shows sexism applies in even in negative archetypes!

I just found a book that blamed Aliester Crowley for 911! I won't link it here, nor the author's other appalling book on the Memphis Three, as I have no wish to provide advertising for such books. But I can tell you it has upset me. Here are the blurbs.

From Prophet of Evil: "Did Aleister Crowley influence the events of 9/11? Do the numbers suffusing the day of September 11th have occult significance? How did Aleister Crowley inspire the doctrines of the New World Order? The answers to these questions is contained in the book Prophet of Evil: Aleister Crowley, 9/11 and the New World Order."

From Abomination: "With startling insights into one of the most talked about murder cases in American history, Abomination: Devil Worship and Deception in the West Memphis Three Murders reveals the truth about the murders of three children in West Memphis, Arkansas in 1993. By analyzing original police transcripts and court documents, William Ramsey effectively proves that witchcraft and devil worship were involved in the heinous murders, and that a continuing wall of deception has prevented the public from knowing awful truth about the West Memphis Three child killings."

The mania of the witchcraft trials, and the anti Pagan/witch sentiments are not dead and gone. It all lies just below the surface. :(

Nell wrote: "I've always wondered how many pagans whose path takes them in this direction are comfortable with the title 'Witch', and how many would prefer to leave the negative associations of the old word beh..."

First of all, I want to thank you for asking this question. I was quite fascinated with the responses. I myself, am not Pagan, but I respect the free will given to all to choose the path that is best for them.

I have always loved the word Witch. I love the imagery that single word conjures up in my mind, both the negative and positive aspects of it. I mostly associate the word with "power" ~ If you think about it, every person that has been "accused" of being a witch had some type of power (either real or imagined).

I think there is magic(k) in words/names and this one is literally dripping with it. I can't imagine trying to distance one's way from it, but I do understand avoiding any confrontations with those who would try to "educate" you to believe as they would.

* * *

I have a different but similar question. How do those who follow this path feel about the fictional depictions of Witches? Example ~ Wizard of Oz / Snow White / Sleeping Beauty / Chronicles of Narnia / Harry Potter and so forth? Is it offensive? Does it depend upon the depiction? Or do you separate the two types of Witches (fictional & Practicing) since they really are different?

And to clarify ~ I am probably more Pagan than I realize. I just haven't done enough research... ;D

Celeste the wrote: "Nell wrote: "I've always wondered how many pagans whose path takes them in this direction are comfortable with the title 'Witch', and how many would prefer to leave the negative associations of the..."

Good question, Celeste. I really try to separate the two types, but sometimes it does seem a bit offensive to me the negative connotation that is given. I don't appreciate negative propaganda about my belief, but at the same time I do love a good scary movie or T.V. show. I can't wait to see Hansel and Gretal: Witch Hunters, for example. In my life I try to educate others ( not force my ways onto them) about the truth and reality of Paganism and dispell (ha ha) the negative and evil image that others have of us.

I do find the archetypical depiction of the witch to be offensive: the hooked nose, the wart, the nasty cackle. Yet if Hansel and Gretal was a real story rather than a fairy tale, it would have been the two, hysterical, zealous children that shoved the poor old woman into the oven and burnt her, rather than the other way around. It's a weird distortion, perpetuating a false archetype, created by the Demonologists in the 1400 and 1500's.

I'm looking forward to watching the new Hansel and Gretal movie too, but the clip I saw was confronting and disturbing in its anti-witch sentiment.

I'm think we are seeing a reappearance of the negative portrayal of the witch in films.

First, look at the eighties and nineties: The Witches of Eastwick, Practical Magic, Charmed, Buffy, all gave the idea that magic and witchcraft weren't intrinsically bad, but rather neutral, and it was all about how, and why, you used it, that determined the question of morality (sorry, mouthful of a sentence, couldn't figure how to word it otherwise).

All the movies I've seen lately are back to the witch is bad, and should be killed. I'm wondering if it's because society has grown more conservative again (which I suspect it has). The film makers give the public what they want, after all. Or is it because the US has grown more religiously conservative?

That said, times and stories change. They'll change again, and I agree with Erik, I try to be a part of that change.

Georgina wrote: "First, look at the eighties and nineties"

I do think it has become more conservative in the new millennium. Just look at how the music scene has changed. In the nineties we had all those fabulous witchy female rockers. Tori Amos, Alanis Morrissette, Bjork, Fiona Apple, Joan Osborne, Patti Rothberg, Courtney Love.

The female archetype in the music scene of the new millennium have a distinctly different flavour. Beyonce, Rhianna (not as pagan as her name), Jennifer Clarkson.

Aaron wrote: "Georgina wrote: "First, look at the eighties and nineties"

I do think it has become more conservative in the new millennium. Just look at how the music scene has changed. In the nineties we had al..."

I blame the Spice Girls with their chaos magic (each representing a specific archetype)and overt sexualisation of the feminine...OK they didn't necessarily do the magic but for a while in the late 90s they were being used by a few chaonauts as cyphers.
They were the Rubicon: pre Spice Girls artists as you mention; post Spice Girls it all went a bit Britney.

Tori Amos is an out and out witch. Father Lucifer is exquisite.

Father Lucifer
You never looked so sane
You always did prefer the drizzle to the rain
Tell me that you're still in love with that Milkmaid
How's the Lizzies
How's your Jesus christ been hanging

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-ux7G...

Not sure how I feel about Spice Girls, never my glass of beer. Totally agree they marked the long slope down.

I actually blamed it on the twin towers thing. The whole singer songwriter trend was taking an Arabic turn when it happened, and then it took a sharp swerve into soul and r&B which was politically safe, but not edgy enough to keep it going, and it was ground which had been covered add nosium.

I derail, do please watch this version Georgina, it gives me chills.

Father Lucifer

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "I blame the Spice Girls with their chaos magic "

I do think "Ziggazigg, AAah" is a chaos spell if ever I heard one.

Celeste wrote: "How do those who follow this path feel about the fictional depictions of Witches? Example ~ Wizard of Oz / Snow White / Sleeping Beauty / Chronicles of Narnia / Harry Potter and so forth? Is it offensive? Does it depend upon the depiction? Or do you separate the two types of Witches (fictional & Practicing) since they really are different? "

I have always admired those witches found in traditional tales, even as a young reader, for being strong, often independent women. I was never happy with the depiction (as mentioned by Georgina) of the wart, etc. as though any woman striving to improve her lot by any means was inherently ugly. I think it was those witches in fairytales who sowed the seed for my finding a spiritual path/tradition where women are not (overtly) treated as secondary.

I still enjoy the old fairytales, and the modern ones being told by modern authors and films, regardless of how a witch is depicted. I do see the witches in fiction as separate from those that take up the title in real life.

Should someone choose to apply any title to themselves, then is it not appropriate that they are assuming all of the words connotations: old, new, good, bad, fictional, virtual and real? Should they attempt to change the traditional, known meaning of a word/title? Why not invent a new word/title with a similar meaning but omitting the negative aspects?

Aaron wrote: "I derail, do please watch this version Georgina, it gives me chills.

Father Lucifer"

The woman is amazing! Totally inspiring. (Can you tell I'm a massive fangirl?) Thanks, Aaaron, lovely start to my morning. :):) Now I'm off to pick up ten, new Isa Brown chooks to add to my flock...