Literary Exploration discussion

This month we will be diving into a collection of 12 short stories from one of the most famous detectives in literature: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s book The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes. This book was the winner of the Classic Detective poll.

I will have to dig it out of wherever it's hiding and give it a reread.

I love Sherlock Holmes.

Hey guys, I'm kind of new at this group, -joined a while ago but never really engaged, so please pardon me just barging in, but I'd like to do the Sherlock since I'm a fan.

..but not quite sure of the rules, do we just jump in and start discussing at any time? Certain stories for certain dates? Or how?

Just jump in and start discussing. Remember to put any spoilers behind spoiler tags and it's all good.

Have any of you watched "Sherlock" on PBS Masterpiece Theater? The new season starts Sunday at 9:00 with "A Scandal in Belgravia." It's really a good series.

Is that the BBC show? I love the modernisation; too bad only 3 episodes a season

It is.

Benedict Cumberbatch is one of my favorite Sherlocks on film. I was never a fan of the Jeremy Brett/Edward Hardwicke combo: I thought they portrayed Holmes and Watson as much older than they're meant to be.

If you pick through the small facts in all the stories, you'll realize that they're both probably in their early thirties, possibly even in their late twenties according to some analyses, when the series begins. Understanding the character this way, rather than based on the popular film interpretations which often make Sherlock late middle-aged, gives a different view of him.

We had The Adventure of the Speckled Band in our literature book in high school. Also, remember reading The Red-Headed League and enjoying it, but I missed some of the other stories, so I look forward to reading these. I finally found my copy of the book.

As far as actors playing Holmes, I've always been partial to Basil Rathbone in the old black and white films like The Hound of the Baskervilles and some of the short stories. I did watch the Jeremy Brett version of Baskervilles, and, it wasn't too bad, but didn't like Brett's version as much as Rathbone's.

Just as long as Robert Downey, Jr. isn't playing Sherlock.

Franky wrote: "We had The Adventure of the Speckled Band in our literature book in high school. Also, remember reading The Red-Headed League and enjoying it, but I missed some of the other stories, so I look forw..."

Yes, Robert Downey is no Sherlock! I am partial to Jeremy Brett.

Rupert Everett also did a good Holmes in an only average BBC film a few years ago, as well.

Barbara wrote: "Franky wrote: "We had The Adventure of the Speckled Band in our literature book in high school. Also, remember reading The Red-Headed League and enjoying it, but I missed some of the other stories,..."

The feeling I get is that, whoever is responsible for the new Sherlock Holmes movies, has never been a big fan of the books.

Gone is our geeky, lanky Holmes. Instead, we get an ass-kicking martial arts master. At that point, they might as well have casted Steven Seagal.

Veljko wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Franky wrote: "We had The Adventure of the Speckled Band in our literature book in high school. Also, remember reading The Red-Headed League and enjoying it, but I missed some of th..."

The real (or at least, Conan Doyle's Sherlock) isn't as geeky and staid as he is usually portrayed, though. Remember that he indeed has a martial arts qualification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu and he does a bunch of other kick-ass stuff as well:

Holmes and Watson carry pistols with them in the case of Watson often his old service revolver—a Mk II Adams Revolver, as was issued to British troops in the 1870s.[33] Watson describes these weapons as being used on seven occasions: in The Sign of the Four, they both fire at the Andaman Islander. In The Hound of the Baskervilles, both Holmes and Watson fire. In "The Adventure of the Copper Beeches", Watson fires at and kills the mastiff. In "The Adventure of the Empty House", Watson pistol-whips Colonel Sebastian Moran. In "The Adventure of the Three Garridebs", Holmes pistol-whips Killer Evans after Watson is shot. In "The Musgrave Ritual", it is revealed that Holmes decorated the wall of their flat with a patriotic "V.R." done in bullet marks. In "The Problem of Thor Bridge", Holmes uses Watson's revolver in a reconstruction of the crime.

Cane

Holmes, as a gentleman, often carries a stick or cane. He is described by Watson as an expert at singlestick and twice uses his cane as a weapon.[34]

Sword

In "A Study in Scarlet" Watson describes Holmes as an expert with a sword—although none of the stories have Holmes using a sword.[35] It is mentioned in "Gloria Scott" that Holmes practised fencing.

Riding crop

In several stories, Holmes appears equipped with a riding crop and in "A Case of Identity" comes close to thrashing a swindler with it. Using a "hunting crop", Holmes knocks a pistol from John Clay's hand in "The Red-Headed League". In "The Six Napoleons" it is described as his favourite weapon—he uses it to break open one of the plaster busts.

Fist-fighting

Holmes is described as a formidable bare-knuckle fighter. In The Sign of the Four, Holmes introduces himself to a prize-fighter as:

"The amateur who fought three rounds with you at Alison's rooms on the night of your benefit four years back". McMurdo responds by saying, "Ah, you're one that has wasted your gifts, you have! You might have aimed high, if you had joined the fancy".

Holmes engages in hand-to-hand combat with his adversaries on occasions throughout the stories, inevitably emerging the victor.[36] It is mentioned also in "Gloria Scott" that Holmes trained as a boxer, and in "The Yellow Face" Watson comments that "he was undoubtedly one of the finest boxers of his weight that I have ever seen."

Martial arts

In "The Adventure of the Empty House", Holmes recounts to Watson how he used martial arts to overcome Professor Moriarty and fling his adversary to his death down the Reichenbach Falls. He states, "I have some knowledge, however, of baritsu, or the Japanese system of wrestling, which has more than once been very useful to me". The name "baritsu" appears to be a reference to the real-life martial art of Bartitsu, which combined jujitsu with Holmes's canonical skills of boxing and cane fencing.

Physical Condition

In several stories, Holmes is described or demonstrated as having above average physical strength. As an example, in "The Adventure of the Speckled Band", Dr. Roylott, 6 feet tall and wide as a doorframe, demonstrates his strength by bending a fire poker in half. After the Doctor leaves, Holmes "said laughing. 'I am not quite so bulky, but if he had remained I might have shown him that my grip was not much more feeble than his own.' As he spoke he picked up the steel poker and, with a sudden effort, straightened it out again." In "The Yellow Face" Watson comments of Holmes, that "Few men were capable of greater muscular effort." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock...

See also: http://edwardianpromenade.com/amuseme...

Though I do think the films that you refer to, was done tongue-in-cheek. I intensely disliked the first one, and think it definitely went overboard portraying Watson as too sassy, as well as Holmes too sexy, who is indeed not very sexy at all, and only ever once in his life felt anything close to erotic stirrings.

I liked the second film very much though. Not entirely quite the Doyle Watson and Holmes, yet, but enjoyable enough on its own merit. ..and I thought their version of Moriarty wasn't too bad, actually.

Regan wrote: "Benedict Cumberbatch is one of my favorite Sherlocks on film. I was never a fan of the Jeremy Brett/Edward Hardwicke combo: I thought they portrayed Holmes and Watson as much older than they're mea..."

Because of movie/TV images, I have always thought that Sherlock was middle aged. His character "seems" old which may be why he is portrayed that way.

Barbara wrote: "Regan wrote: "Benedict Cumberbatch is one of my favorite Sherlocks on film. I was never a fan of the Jeremy Brett/Edward Hardwicke combo: I thought they portrayed Holmes and Watson as much older th..."

Though, he was in fact not. If you look at the adventures of Sherlock and Watson over a time continuum, they start off as young bachelors sharing rooms. Watson is a young, just qualified doctor. Later on Watson meets his wife (this happened much sooner in the films with Robert Downey Jr and Jude Law than it happens in the progression of the Holmes/Watson stories as penned by Doyle).

I can waffle on for hours about SH and Conan Doyle. I do assume all of you know the background to the creation of SH, that CD was a doctor himself (so he is actually Watson in the stories) and SH is based on one of his teachers whom he greatly admired.

CD was writing the SH stories in serial form for something which was the equivalent of a modern day comic or TV series - a lot of Victorian fiction was released serially in chapters, like the literature equivalent of a soapie.

SH garnered a huge following, but CD had greater ambitions and saw himself as a historian, rather than a writer of detective fiction. He got tired of Sherlock, and killed him off to get rid of him, to such enormous public outrage that he actually got hate mail for the death of poor Sherlock. Soo... in the end he gave in and resurrected Sherlock again. :)

Barbara wrote: "Regan wrote: "Benedict Cumberbatch is one of my favorite Sherlocks on film. I was never a fan of the Jeremy Brett/Edward Hardwicke combo: I thought they portrayed Holmes and Watson as much older th..."

I've always thought of Jeremy Brett as the best Sherlock Holmes and much as I've enjoyed Benedict Cumberbatch as the new Holmes it is the voice of Jeremy Brett I hear when reading these stories.

What did catch me by surprise in these short stories was the reference Holmes makes to both he and Watson being middle-aged, but when thinking about it Holmes and Watson are supposed to be of a similar age and Watson is a qualified doctor who served with the army in Afganistan. This would surely make him at least in his early thirties at the start of all the stories and there are lots of references to the passing of time indicating that the pair of them are ageing appropriatly as the stories progress.

I'm glad to be reading these adventures as I have found I don't know them as well as I thought I did and it's like seeing a new side to an old friend.

Teresa wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Regan wrote: "Benedict Cumberbatch is one of my favorite Sherlocks on film. I was never a fan of the Jeremy Brett/Edward Hardwicke combo: I thought they portrayed Holmes and Watson ..."

The Holmes /Watson relationship starts with A Study in Scarlet. Remember that in Victorian times, you were middle-aged by your thirties.

Here is a good timeline: http://www.nekosmuse.com/withlovesh/?...

Holmes and Watson meet. They are, at this point, in their mid-to-late twenties, Watson some years older than Holmes.Watson, having returned to London from campaigning in Afghanistan (during the second Afghan War), and sporting an injured shoulder and/or leg (Doyle varies on the location of Watson’s wound) runs into an old acquaintance, Stamford. Watson tells Stamford he is looking for cheap accommodations, so Stamford offers to introduce Watson to Holmes, who is looking for someone to go halves with on a set of rooms (Baker Street).They agree to take the rooms and move in together. Within the span of a few weeks, Watson has become obsessed with his new roommate and begins keeping lists of Holmes’ limits. Holmes preens under the attention.

Shortly after Watson’s list-taking begins, Holmes chooses to reveal his profession (consulting detective) and begins dragging Watson out on cases. Holmes, ever the showman, is delighted to have found an audience.

By the end of the story, Watson has announced his intention of writing and publishing Holmes’ cases."

Traveller wrote: "Veljko wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Franky wrote: "We had The Adventure of the Speckled Band in our literature book in high school. Also, remember reading The Red-Headed League and enjoying it, but I mi..."

Wow, I guess that is a way more informed opinion than my musings. I read almost all of the stories and novels as a kid - but it's been so long that I did recall the boxing, and the occasional shooting, but not the martial arts, sword-fighting etc.

Nonetheless, Sherlock was my geek-hero as a kid. I can't help but feeling the movie is off. Maybe it's the 'sexy' image you refer to...

I, too, liked the second one better, however.

Veljko wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Veljko wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Franky wrote: "We had The Adventure of the Speckled Band in our literature book in high school. Also, remember reading The Red-Headed League and enj..."

I think it's very hard to follow a timeline just from reading the books alone. I did more research on Sherlock because of some of the very reasons posters above have mentioned: That films or games about Sherlock sometimes seem to portray him differently than what my own idea of him was. But I'd never read the stories in order when I read them, and who remembers all this much detail off of the top off their heads?

... so I decided to check it out, and it seems that there are people quite fanatical about Sherlock out there, and you get websites and books dedicated to the study of Sherlock and the timeline that the stories follow, as well as interesting details about the character, plus how he's been depicted in films and other popular media.

It's interesting how differently he is depicted in different films and graphic images. I can recommend two interesting books in this regard:The Pictorial History Of Sherlock Holmes and Sherlock Holmes

They're great even just from a pictorial point of view.

A few years ago the Smithsonian magazine had a nice story about Doyle's early years as a doctor and writer, his creation of Holmes and the London landmarks he incorporated into his stories. If Doyle had been a more successful physician, Holmes might never have existed.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-cu...

I read the first two stories, "A Scandal in Bohemia" and "The Red Headed League." I'll probably skip around with some of the others.

So, I heard that "A Scandal in Bohemia" is the first story written even about Sherlock Holmes, so a sort of debut. Is that correct? He does seem a little sloppy in solving the crime. The stories where Holmes puts on disguises always add an interesting element, too. I like the way he battles wits with Irene Adler.

I think Irene is the perfect match for him. She can keep up with him, and I love the tension.

Franky wrote: "So, I heard that "A Scandal in Bohemia" is the first story written even about Sherlock Holmes, so a sort of debut. Is that correct?"

Not exactly. It was the first Holmes short story.
A Study in Scarlet was the first Holmes story, written in 1887. Then came The Sign of Four in 1891. And then comes A Scandal in Bohemia.

Kim, thanks for the clarification.

Does anyone know why he uses cocaine? He seems so alert without it.

Flash Beagle wrote: "Does anyone know why he uses cocaine? He seems so alert without it."

Only when he's working. If he's not working he finds life too dull.

Kim wrote: "Flash Beagle wrote: "Does anyone know why he uses cocaine? He seems so alert without it."

Only when he's working. If he's not working he finds life too dull."

I believe you probably meant 'only when he's NOT working'. Am I right in recollecting that he's also done opium?

Actually I did mean only when he's working. I was referring to the second part.

Flash Beagle wrote: "He seems so alert without it."

Ah, I see what you're saying now.

I already had the complete collection on my 'to read' list and since it was picked for this month's selection I decided I would start from the beginning so I haven't gotten to The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes yet- I'm in the middle of A Study in Scarlet. It's fun to read!

I like the novel best and my favorite is "The Hound of the Baslervilles".
The short stories are something I like to read in between. Something where I stop before the solution and try to find out what happened myself. It's fun.

I also read this in a Complete Collection so I read "A Study in Scarlet" and "The Big Four" first. This was my first foray into Sherlock Holmes. I am a definite fan of detective stories. Christie's Poirot has been my favorite up to now, but I loved Holmes. I don't know how it has taken me this long to get to reading these books. I finished The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes but am continuing to read the Complete Collection because I'm enjoying the stories so much.

Conan Doyle is a master of telling stories and Sherlock Holmes is one of the best characters ever created. This was an enjoyable read but I felt that the writing was not deep enough for me. The stories also appeared to be more predictable than I thought, even the ones that I haven’t seen in films. Having said that, I intend to read all the other stories about Sherlock Holmes as I find some elements in them quite interesting, especially the ones concerning with explanations of human nature…

I read these last summer for fun and fell back in love with mysteries. Sherlock Holmes rekindled my crazy infatuation with Mystery novels and I began reading as many of them as I could find! Then, upon my return to University, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle inspired me to create a Thematic Unit for my secondary education courses based around Mystery Novels. I called it A Mysterious Thematic Unit. I love the BBC adaptation and am sooo excited that it's been playing on PBS these past two weeks. Unfortunately, after Sunday it's back to waiting. *shakes fist* Mofffattt!
Ah, well. Sherlock Holmes: rekindling passion for mysteries through his passion for mysteries.

Traveller wrote: "Veljko wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Franky wrote: "We had The Adventure of the Speckled Band in our literature book in high school. Also, remember reading The Red-Headed League and enjoying it, but I mi..."

I do agree with this arguement completely

i think that Guy ritchie up until the BBC came out with their version using Cumberbatch was as close to who Sherlock really was writeen by Doyle.

Although it has been pointed out that Robert Downey Junior is too sexy for the role have watched a lot of his films i think he was more playing insufferable prat than sexy - which is what Holmes would have been.

However i do think that Cumberbatch is much better suited to the role and Freeman is a much better Watson than Jude Law.

Now for the book - really enjoying again so far. I hadnt read these for at least 10 years. great to relive the adventures

I'm just reading A Study In Scarlet because I cannot find the whole collection, and by the time I get it in it will be too late. But I have read other Holmes novels so seeing how him and Watson meet is interesting. Holmes is erratic and moody while Watson is calm and steady. They complement each other nicely.

Michael wrote: "This month we will be diving into a collection of 12 short stories from one of the most famous detectives in literature: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s book The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes. This book w..."

How does one post a message on the group after one reads the monthly selection?

Finally found this comment block.
Am not sure I'll find it again.

At any rate, I've read ten of the stories in the monthly read. Fun, enjoyable, but I expected more. In only one of them did Dr. Watson contribute to a solution to the so-called "crime."
Last night I came to the conclusion, Watson was invented by Doyle simply as a tool, a person to whom Holmes can talk. Watson is rather colorless.
In one sense, the stories are almost formulaic.
Holmes in his apartment either alone or with Watson nearby and a visitor arrives.
Visitor expresses problem.
Holmes either investigates -- in or out of a disguise -- or asks Watson to join him.
Holmes offers his deductions.
Watson praises him.
Story ends.
The word "that" is still in the English language.
And Holmes uses the word "ejaculated" in almost every story to express the meaning of "said"--never with a sexual overtone.
Having recently read both Michael Crichton's The Great Train Robbery and Anne Perry's Breach of Promise, SH stories were less exciting than they might have been had I not already been deluged by Victorian mysteries.

We don't close any of the monthly discussions, feel free to come and post anytime. If you want to post in the very first book discussion go for it :)

Good to know. Thanks, Kim.

Barbara, I tend to think Watson is a fun sidekick to Holmes. In a short story, this isn't as apparent, though, and there isn't time to establish this as much. However, in a longer work or novel, like The Hound of the Baskervilles, Watson's importance to the crime being solved and his personality come into a sharper focus.

Will look for a FREE copy. Years ago, I saw the film -- I think.

The longer stories give a more full view of their personalities and also have more mystery/suspense.

It would be fun to do a compare/contrast of Holmes and Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot - the 2 most famous classic detectives - very different personalities - but to do that you really need the longer stories.

I'm enjoying the humor. For example, in The Red-Headed League, when they are ready to nab the would-be robbers, Holmes tells Watson, "If they fire, Watson, have no compunction about shooting them down." Watson's nerves are on edge of course and I had to wonder what in the world is Watson doing with a revolver; did he always carry one? To me this was funny because Holmes is so matter of fact about the whole thing, never giving it a second thought as to what Watson might think about "shooting them down".

Red-headed men seem to be the villains in both SH short stories -- e.g., The Red-Headed League -- and Crichton's Great Train Robbery, which I think was a fictionalized true-life drama.

Flash Beagle wrote: "Watson's nerves are on edge of course and I had to wonder what in the world is Watson doing with a revolver; did he always carry one?"

Yes, he tended to carry his old service revolver with him.

I started watching some of the Jeremy Brett adaptations of the short stories on netflix. Really enjoying these. They really seem to give an added dimension to the stories.

Thanks for the link to the Smithsonian article, lots of good information. More insight into the cocaine use. Also timely because it mentions Oscar Wilde and Dorian Gray, next month's read...imagine these incredible authors at a dinner discussing their upcoming publications.

I found a very neat edition reproducing the original illustrations, great illustrations too, and printed in columns as they appeared in The Strand magazine (I love historical context). The illustrations had to be key in forming the images of Holmes, Watson. It also has The Hound of The Baskervilles which was published from Aug 1901-Apr 1902, each installment eagerly anticipated by readers. Finding this illustrated version has added greatly to enjoying the Holmes experience! Make that, Holmes-Watson experience; without Watson there's no Holmes.

Just finished reading "The Man with the Twisted Lip." It is the first story I have read that involves Holmes and Watson both going into an opium den as part of a search and investigation. Interesting story, sort of a missing persons mystery with a little locked-room mystery thrown in.

A great quote from Holmes in the story: "It is better to learn wisdom late, than never to learn it at all." Fitting quote for the story, too.

I find that I have trouble getting through short story anthologies when all the stories are by the same author. I've just finished "The Man with the Twisted Lip" and I'm feeling like I've had enough Holmes for a couple of weeks.

It's one of the drawbacks of reading them in a collection instead of stretched out over months as they gradually appear in publication.

The advantage, though, is being able to compare the stories and really see why some have been so enduringly popular and others not as much.

(view spoiler)["The Red Headed League" has an unexpected twist to it and "The Five Orange Pips" is very suspenseful. You really wonder if John Openshaw will make it back in time to save his life.

On the other hand, "A Case of Identity" and "The Boscombe Valley Mystery" I figured out fairly quickly. (hide spoiler)]

Watson is very much at the forefront of all these stories, though I did feel like Conan Doyle was jumping through hoops to get both Holmes and Watson in that opium den in "The Man with the Twisted Lip."