The Sword and Laser discussion

I felt like this book was primarily about depression, but without any real message about it (aside from its portrayal).

Quentin, in my opinion, is obviously suffering from chronic, clinical depression. Having dealt with family members who suffer like this, it feels very familiar to me. The problem I have with this book is that Q never progresses, at all.

He believes that when he learns magic, he'll stop being depressed. But learning at, and graduating from, Hogwarts Brakebills doesn't cure him. And so he tries to dull the emptiness he feels with drugs and alcohol, which, of course, also doesn't help. Finally, he thinks that going to Narnia Fillory to live out his childhood fantasy will cure him. It doesn't either.

At no time does he ever actually try and get real help for his depression. (view spoiler)[In fact, by the end of the story, he's about to run away again, obviously in an attempt to fill the emptiness of his hum-drum life. (hide spoiler)]

In a way, I'm really disappointed that this character never really shows any personal progress at all. But perhaps, that was Lev Grossman's intention. I'm not really sure. Your thoughts?

I feel that he had a complete lack of progression and that really irked me. I don't know if that is going to be different in the follow up novel, or if I'll even ever read that.

What really struck me as odd is that he seemed to take everything so seriously, but his attitude toward everything didn't reflect that. It just seemed like Q and Alice did whatever they wanted and just breezed through. If learning magic was so important to him then I figure he would have been a better magician and studied harder.

I also don't understand how he was passed to second year after his first semester. He didn't show any aptitude above and beyond the others that I could tell. Maybe it just wasn't written in enough and it was assumed since Q is supposed to be so "amazing".

Dan wrote: "I felt like this book was primarily about depression, but without any real message about it (aside from its portrayal)....I felt like this book was primarily about depression, but without any real message about it (aside from its portrayal)....In a way, I'm really disappointed that this character never really shows any personal progress at all. But perhaps, that was Lev Grossman's intention. I'm not really sure. Your thoughts? "

I agree with this that it's a book about (among other things) depression. I'm not disappointed per se that Q didn't grow or otherwise seem to have a response from his depression...again, it made it more real to me. To some extent, Q reminds me of my dad, who is clinically depressed but doesn't want to treat it because he thinks he should feel bad. He thinks it's cheating to feel good. Maybe Q (intentionally or otherwise) feels the same way.

terpkristin wrote: "I agree with this that it's a book about (among other things) depression. I'm not disappointed per se that Q didn't grow or otherwise seem to have a response from his depression...again, it made it more real to me."

I'd agree with this.

Q does the wrong things to lift himself out of depression, that combination of convincing yourself that the 'next awesome thing' is going to make you happy, the crash when it doesn't, and the self medicating with alcohol and drugs rang very true to me.

Lots of people with depression don't seek treatment, for lots of reasons, and Q to my mind fits a fairly typical pattern, he's intelligent and functional enough that other people haven't intervened, and he's identified the problem as being external to him. If the world we're only better he would feel better. It's a very easy trap to fall into, and not one I've seen represented well in fiction much.

Q is a "high functioning" depressive and often that's missed by pretty much everyone, in my experience - parents, partners, friends, health professionals. You can hold down a good job, have a family, hobbies, do sports - and still feel like absolute crap all of the time. It's when the self-medicating gets out of hand that you come to the attention of others, and if the others in your circle are self-medicating themselves, or hedonistic, or have their heads far enough up their own backsides/are in denial/are self-centred (as I thought Q's parents were), then it just goes on and on and on. There's no energy for growth - it's like the little stunted shrub in the corner no-one notices. It's living - it doesn't complain by shedding leaves or failing to fruit - but it's not what it could be.

I really felt for Q because he just ended up with unchallenging people all the time - nobody asked what was going on with him as they were all too caught up in themselves. Even Alice, who I had high hopes for. Q had no insight into himself and no connection with anyone who could draw him out even a little bit. I actually got really angry that none of his teachers or his parents saw even a little bit of what was happening. But then, I've been there, where no-one sees beyond your outer shell of grades and standard upkeep - both for myself and for friends - so maybe I'm just bitter.

Dan, I think you hit the nail on the head here, and my opinion of the book mirrors yours. It seemed obvious to me early on that the central theme of the book would be Q's depression rather than something more explicitly magical or fantastic. What was interesting to me was that I'm not sure the word "depression" was used very much, if at all, with regards to Q.

That being said, I agree with you in that what, to me, was the major failing of The Magicians was the complete lack of growth for the main character. I don't need there to be a likable or relatable main character for me to enjoy a book, but there has to be some kind of arc to the character, and that wasn't the case here. Q on page 1 is the same as Q on page 400, and that's a little hard to swallow.

Hi my name is Chris. I really enjoyed The Magicians. these are my thoughts about this discussion:
I think depression is the wrong word for this discussion. Depression is characterized by a depressed mood, in ability to experience pleasure, changes in appetite, feelings of hopelessness, thoughts of suicide and difficulty sleeping. Quentin does not have these symptoms. We know that because the narrator tells us what he is thinking. I think a better word is unhappiness or dissatisfaction. Fogg Even says when they graduate from Hogw ... Brakebills that being a Magician is about being unhappy, which is different from the overwhelming sense of despair experienced by someone with major depression. Q has a chronic sense of dissatisfaction which he does't learn to deal with in the book. But I think that is Lev's comment on being in your 20's, sometimes you're too thickheaded to learn your lesson.

Thanks for reading

Christopher wrote: "Depression is characterized by a depressed mood, in ability to experience pleasure, changes in appetite, feelings of hopelessness, thoughts of suicide and difficulty sleeping."

Sure, for some of it, but I think your characterisation is too simplistic. The chronic, long-term, high-functioning unipolar depressive is also perfectly capable of enjoying things, eating normally, sleeping reasonably well, etc etc. Some people are very cyclical, others have a pervasive sense of low mood almost all the time. Sometimes medications and therapy help, sometimes they don't. There are as many flavours of depression as there are brains - as it happens, Q's flavour is quite similar to some I have close experience with.

I don't think it's about being thickheaded at all. Depression in this particular nihilistic flavour - a feeling of "what's the point of me, what's the point of all this?" is even more taboo than "standard" reactive depression. Most of us can understand depression when it's related to loss or failure, and expect to get over it or at least make it manageable eventually. Free-floating anxiety and black, pessimistic what's-the-point-ism isn't something it's easy to admit to when the world is seemingly your oyster. Q had everything and nothing - and we don't know how much of that nothing feeling is down to his brain chemistry, his personality and his particular set of circumstances. It's a weird state to be in and hard to understand if you've not been in contact with someone who experiences the world in this way. I do wonder if Lev Grossman is writing from personal experience because it's a very good description and has obviously resonated with a lot of people here.

I could definitely sympathize with Quentin - the ennui, the dissatisfaction, and even the self-destructive actions. When you get everything you've ever wanted and dreamed about and it doesn't make you happy, it doesn't necessarily mean you're a spoiled brat. It can mean that you've got a problem.

Chris' definition is the criteria for major clinical depression. Quentin would probably be diagnosed with dysthymia, chronic low grade depression that doesn't quite get to the level of disrupting one's life, but still sucks.

Caroline wrote: "Q is a "high functioning" depressive and often that's missed by pretty much everyone, in my experience - parents, partners, friends, health professionals. You can hold down a good job, have a famil..."

I agree with Caroline, for this reason The Magicians engaged me with the idea that our "hero" was suffering the way real people can. To see Q suffer with self doubt and depression was an interesting addition to a genre that can become join the dots fantasy. I am looking forward to The Magician King.