Fantasy Aficionados discussion

There was a short story back in the early '60s, can't remember exactly when. I read it in a collection back then. The idea was a post nuclear story and only 2 people had found each other in the ruins at least of the area in the story. It was a guy who'd "been around". He had some disorder that would shorten his life and caused him to cough constantly and collapse. He had trouble beginning to breath again after. The woman had helped him so far. BUT she was a very prudish young woman and the idea that they had to do the Adam and Eve thing was freaking her. He finally convinced her that they had to have children when he had a coughing fit and fell backward through a swinging door. It turned out to be a mens' room and she wouldn't go in....

I watched a movie don't remember name where the last people on earth were two men and one woman. Wouldn't you hate being the last third person alive... I think one of the men killed the other.

Prudes being the downfall of the human race?

Facetiousness aside, I'm not overly fond of Apocalyptic stories. I have to be in a very particular mood to enjoy them. I like gritty noir-esque stories but they have a snarky cynicism that lightens the mood, where 'pure' apocalyptic stuff tends to be over heightened emotion and moodiness from beginning to end. That gets exhausting unless it has some other focus like romance, comedy, gender or, like S.J. mentioned, sexuality.

Reminds me of some very strange Schwartzenegger movie I saw when I was a kid where he was, uh, "impregnated". Preeeeetty sure it was from the 90's.

S.J. wrote: "I can see where a character in a book being the last man on earth could be a serious obstacle to writing a gay romance novel..."

He could have an intensely torrid love affair with his left hand.

Sophie wrote: "Reminds me of some very strange Schwartzenegger movie I saw when I was a kid where he was, uh, "impregnated". Preeeeetty sure it was from the 90's.

..."

That was one weird movie, i can't believe that guy became Governor.

Lizzy wrote: "S.J. wrote: "I can see where a character in a book being the last man on earth could be a serious obstacle to writing a gay romance novel..."

He could have an intensely torrid love affair with his..."

Or with a dead man, presumably. Or the entire novel is about the last man on earth desperately trying to persuade some of the many remaining women on earth to have a sex-change operation?

I've got to admit, I couldn't call THAT novel cliched...

^lol

One thing that always annoys me, in a book or in a movie, is when some hapless victim is caught by the psycho killer or evil villain and somehow manages to knock the bad guy out or render him helpless for a moment and then runs away rather than staying to finish the job. I spent many fun years playing various fantasy role playing games, and gamers never forgot the first three rules of such a situation:
1) Make sure it's dead.
2) Make SURE it's dead.
3) Make sure it's DEAD.
Of course, applying those rules would make for a fairly short book or film.

Wastrel wrote: "Lizzy wrote: "S.J. wrote: "I can see where a character in a book being the last man on earth could be a serious obstacle to writing a gay romance novel..."

He could have an intensely torrid love a..."

That sounds like something I'd actually read! (Not the necrophilia, but the sex-change thing)

S.J. wrote: "One thing that always annoys me..."

Every single villain out there needs to get themselves a copy of the Evil Overlord List.

love the Evil Overlord list. Talk about a list of cliches!

I know. There used to be several other lists, hero, side kick and so on. Haven't seen those in a while.

S.J. wrote: "One thing that always annoys me, in a book or in a movie, is when some hapless victim is caught by the psycho killer or evil villain and somehow manages to knock the bad guy out or render him helpl..."

Double Tap!!! According to Zombieland

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I know. There used to be several other lists, hero, side kick and so on. Haven't seen those in a while."

Carol wrote: "love the Evil Overlord list. Talk about a list of cliches!"

Yeah, I mean, seriously. If the hero wins using some flaw as silly as some of the ones detailed on that list in a novel, I'd throw the book against the wall opposite me and groan.
Unless I was using my kindle, in which case I'd take twilight which I actually have a hardcopy and throw it against the wall. it's good at taking abuse.

Lizzy wrote: "Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I know. There used to be several other lists, hero, side kick and so on. Haven't seen those in a while."

Carol wrote: "love the Evil Overlord list. Talk about a list of ..."

lol reminds me of Rules of Metal on www.metalstorm.net

it has rules of almost every major genre of metal, the best being the first ones like black metal, power metal, added rules of power metal, numetal and maybe most hilarious is 196 rules of doom metal... the others arent too bad but then, they arent the best either :D

S.J. wrote: "
1) Make sure it's dead.
2) Make SURE it's dead.
3) Make sure it's DEAD."

I have a habit of screaming this at books and the television set and my brother when he has to kill something crawly for me.

I don't know how I've never come across that list before! Been giggling for the last half hour. The whole time reading it I couldn't help but hear Dark Helmet in the background, "So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb".

Rape is probably the top turn-off for me, too. I have no ideology involved in this, that is, whether fantasy should depict awful things or not. In theory, I would say "Write your story the way you want" or "Read whatever you want."

I just observe, however, that when I read a fantasy that was book one of a new series and the female character who was second to the protagonist was raped, I finished the book, but I had (and still have) no desire to read the subsequent books.
That's not something I consider entertainment. And yes, the book was simply entertainment, with no literary pretentions. The only other thing I can conceive of that might turn me against a book more would be vivid description of cruelty to animals.

Donna wrote: "Rape is probably the top turn-off for me, too. I have no ideology involved in this, that is, whether fantasy should depict awful things or not. In theory, I would say "Write your story the way you ..."

I feel like I know what book you're talking about. And that bothers me greatly, too.

I am annoyed when a character is in peril and picks up the sword or starship or whatever and is suddenly superbly expert with it. An example would be Princess Leia in the 2nd or third Star Wars movie (of the first 3) suddenly being able to duel with a light saber.

Well, as Luke Skywalker's sister she did have all those midichlorians going for her...

I don't mind violence in fantasy, actually I guess I must like it considering my favorite books. But I hate it when everyone in the book is either a victim or a bully. I'll quit these quicker than any other.

That reminds me of my main disgruntlement with an otherwise fine book by Tim Powers, The Anubis Gates. (view spoiler)[ If you weren't the hero or villain, you were a victim. Two exceptions only. (hide spoiler)]
(I think that's too general a comment to be a real spoiler, but I marked it anyway.)

I don't believe in midichlorians. I hold that everything after the first 3 Star Wars movies (which of course are now supposed to be the last 3 Star Wars movies) is an evil conspiracy perpetrated by whoever is the Sith Lord of Earth. Possibly Voldemort or Sauron or maybe a used car salesman.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I don't believe in midichlorians. I hold that everything after the first 3 Star Wars movies (which of course are now supposed to be the last 3 Star Wars movies) is an evil conspiracy perpetrated by..."

^This

I don't mind violence in books, and graphic descriptions of sex and violence don't really irk me, much. Rape is sometimes an effective plot device if used properly, such as a motivation for revenge or something, because, unfortunately, it DOES happen. However, if the rape is carried out with no repercussions whatsoever and the rapist gets off scot-free, I might take issue...

Lizzy wrote: "I don't mind violence in books, and graphic descriptions of sex and violence don't really irk me, much. Rape is sometimes an effective plot device if used properly, such as a motivation for revenge..."

I've seen rape "used properly" but most of the time it serves the same purpose as a young child: plot moppet. Oh woe is the heroine! She has been violated! No need to worry about character development, she was raped!

Lizzy wrote: "I don't mind violence in books, and graphic descriptions of sex and violence don't really irk me, much. Rape is sometimes an effective plot device if used properly, such as a motivation for revenge..."

Except that I feel like it becomes a shorthand for character development in those revenge fantasies, rather than deal with more complex motivations, psychological development or histories. As an evaluation technique, I have to ask myself: how would this work if a man was the main character? There are loads of revenge fantasies with male main characters, but certainly the rape/revenge story isn't used to nearly the same extent as it is with female MCs.

That's where I feel that authors need to be careful and ask themselves why it's a necessary storyline. Many fail, and instead fall into what Janny was talking about, that it is for more voyeuristic intention.

I don't really have a problem with rape in stories either, but then I've yet to read a book that uses it as a narrative shorthand. The only example I can think of off the top of my head is, uh...well I'm not sure if it would be a spoiler to say which book, so to err on the side of caution: (view spoiler)[ Robin McKinley's Deerskin (hide spoiler)] which horrified me immensely and I believe that was the intention. It is a good book, I'd rate it high, but it did make me awfully uncomfortable, which rape should do in any story.

I recently read (view spoiler)[ A Companion to Wolves (hide spoiler)] which involves the question of male rape ( or "non-consensual" as some say). It gave me the same uncomfortable reading experience as the previously mentioned book.

For both novels the instance of rape is more or less central to the storyline rather than the characters, though it inescapably affects the character's development. I didn't find either to be voyeuristic, but mayhaps others might.

Right now the word “vampire” and “super special girl” that meets “sexy bad boy” that makes things all better really irk me.
What is also really creeping me out now is this obsession for possessive and borderline abusive boys in YA books.
It’s like if the guy is hot enough and rich enough it’s okay if he is a controlling asshat.
This is not sexy, it’s scary as hell.

Sophie wrote: "S.J. wrote: "
1) Make sure it's dead.
2) Make SURE it's dead.
3) Make sure it's DEAD."

I have a habit of screaming this at books and the television set and my brother when he has to kill something..."

Oh, yeah. I was giggling when I read that list too.

Liz wrote: "Right now the word “vampire” and “super special girl” that meets “sexy bad boy” that makes things all better really irk me.
What is also really creeping me out now is this obsession for possessive ..."

Especially with this newfangled fifty shades of shit thing that came out recently.

Protip for guys: Taking a woman's TAMPON out and ramming yourself in there is NOT SEXY.

Well, I'd been debating whether or not to read those books. Thanks for helping me to reach a final decision, Lizzy! Now I can buy something else with the money you convinced me to save.

Yeah the whole this isn’t me trying to be a controlling bastard its bondage, yeah that’s it.
CSI understood bondage a heck of a lot better than the 50S hack author.

Lizzy, OMG LMAO!!!! Too funny. Maybe I have to read that. Might make an interesting review if nothing else.

I have no intention of jumping on the "Fifty Shades of Grey" bandwagon. Controlling, abusive bullies send shivers of revulsion and disgust down my spine, not shivers of ecstasy!

Liz wrote: "Yeah the whole this isn’t me trying to be a controlling bastard its bondage, yeah that’s it.
CSI understood bondage a heck of a lot better than the 50S hack author."

She came out and said she doesn't know idea the first about bondage and BDSM. She just thought it would be sexy and went with it...made it all up whole cloth (except what she'd gleaned from other romances).

I have friends who hate the portrayal of BDSM in the books. They said that the author made BDSM into the "bad guy" and it was only something a "deviant" would do. At the end the hero is saved from his deviant activities by the love of a good woman.

Usually the only sympathetic treatment of BDSM is found in erotic fiction. I would suppose that in order to first titillate and then appease a wide audience an author must finally condemn the practice in some way and then find a way to redeem the deviant.

MrsJoseph wrote: "Liz wrote: "Yeah the whole this isn’t me trying to be a controlling bastard its bondage, yeah that’s it.
CSI understood bondage a heck of a lot better than the 50S hack author."

She came out and s..."

Wow, isnt she special...she can write a book without research.

Go her!

(detect sarcasm)

Lizzy wrote: "Liz wrote: "Right now the word “vampire” and “super special girl” that meets “sexy bad boy” that makes things all better really irk me.
What is also really creeping me out now is this obsession for..."

Different people can find different things sexy. Sometimes, people find things sexy that you find disgusting, and vice versa.

----

The 'she's making BDSM seem deviant and weird' argument is missing the point. Not just because BDSM IS deviant and weird, but because its neither healthy nor polite for people to defend their own unusual tastes by attacking the even more unusual tastes of others. If people enjoy reading 50 shades of grey (and clearly many people do), it's a bit hypocritical for 'mainstream' BDSM enthusiasts to denounce those people as weird and creepy and 'deviant'.

The proper response to "your sexual fantasies are deviant and weird" is not "but we're not as deviant and weird as those guys! Look at those guys, they're disgusting!"; the proper response is "I don't care what you think about my sex life".

Wastrel wrote: "Lizzy wrote: "Liz wrote: "Right now the word “vampire” and “super special girl” that meets “sexy bad boy” that makes things all better really irk me.
What is also really creeping me out now is this..."

Huh??

Not quit sure of the context of your comment.

On second thoughts, I don't think I want to have this argument yet again right now. Maybe next time. Pass on by...

Wastrel wrote: "Lizzy wrote: "Liz wrote: "Right now the word “vampire” and “super special girl” that meets “sexy bad boy” that makes things all better really irk me.
What is also really creeping me out now is this..."

Hey I am not going to look down on what floats your boat for harmless adult fun, to each their own kink.
I am not saying that there is some scary crap out there though, I mean there are people that get off on amputating their fingers and toes.
I don’t find infant play in any shape or form sexy but if it’s your thing rock it, it doesn’t affect me at all.
On a personal note I find m/m romance sexy and to a lot of people that might be “deviant” or “wrong” and I say if you are living in a glass houses don’t throw stones.

As long as it's consensual with reasonably aged parties I really don't care. Which I think was the point here. Maybe I'm mistaken. But I got that even though the book has BDSM elements the author looks down on it. Making her and her book hypercritical. What bothers some readers about books like Twilight is it's not equality between two partners.

Traci wrote: "As long as it's consensual with reasonably aged parties I really don't care. Which I think was the point here. Maybe I'm mistaken. But I got that even though the book has BDSM elements the author l..."

Huzzah, well said!

Traci wrote: "As long as it's consensual with reasonably aged parties I really don't care. Which I think was the point here. Maybe I'm mistaken. But I got that even though the book has BDSM elements the author l..."

Agreed.

Wastrel wrote: "Lizzy wrote: "Liz wrote: "Right now the word “vampire” and “super special girl” that meets “sexy bad boy” that makes things all better really irk me.
What is also really creeping me out now is this..."

People have their kinks, yes, but it's all about both parties enjoying each other in an intimate act. Because 50s was told from Ana's point of view, it was made very clear that she didn't like it but she had to go along with what Christian wanted.

Not very healthy.

What Lizzy said. I read it last week and it was really bad.

Lizzy wrote: "Wastrel wrote: "Lizzy wrote: "Liz wrote: "Right now the word “vampire” and “super special girl” that meets “sexy bad boy” that makes things all better really irk me.
What is also really creeping me..."

Yeah I forgot in my rant to specify two consenting kink enjoying adults.

Traci wrote: "As long as it's consensual with reasonably aged parties I really don't care. Which I think was the point here. Maybe I'm mistaken. But I got that even though the book has BDSM elements the author l..."

Signed.

Well I avoid vampires, the undead, and zombies.

I generally do to. They're heck on the furnishings and always crease the backs on your books.