The Sword and Laser discussion

So, I've recently started watching "Game of Thrones", and I've basically gotten to the point in the TV series where I lemmed the novel, and it got me to thinking about why.

The book series has something of a legitmate reputation as a series where any character, including perspective characters can be killed - at almost any time. The reason I lemmed the book was I came to the realization that, if not by the end of this book, then by some not-to-distant point in the series, I would reach a situation where I would lose all investment in the characters, especially new characters, because emotionally investing in those characters would be a losing proposition - odds were high that they would die. Whether heroically, tragically, or randomly, they'd be killed, so there'd be no point caring about any of the characters.

I kind of call this point the Tomino/Martin Threshold, after George R.R. Martin (whose applicability to this I've already established), and Yoshiyuki Tomino, creator of (among other things), the Mobile Suit Gundam TV series (and related novels), who has received the nickname of "Kill 'Em All Tomino" due to the high named character body-count in some of his works, particularly Gundam Zeta, Char's Counter Attack, and, in particular, Space Runaway Ideon, where (Spoiler for an unlicensed and unreleased in the US TV show) (view spoiler)[the entire universe is destroyed and remade in the conclusion. (hide spoiler)]

So, what I'm wondering is, has anyone else hit this threshold - where you just stopped caring, either about new characters (or even already established ones), because they were already dead anyway? What books pushed you over?

I'm glad G.R.R.Martin makes everyone fair game for death. Real life is like that. People come and go in our lives.

I'm not going to stop making friends or loving people I'm close to because they may not be around in my future.

I'm at an age where friends and family are dying way too regularly.
I reflect on the past and good times I had with them and never on the fact that getting to know them makes their loss harder.

I enjoy the time I have with family and friends now and that's how I feel about my favourite characters in books. It makes them feel real that their futures are not assured.

That said, if he kills off Arya in book 6, I may just toss the book away.

I think it's your loss for having lemmed the book. Like Tassie said, it's closer to real life. You're going to make emotional connections with people who are going to die, but it doesn't mean you avoid making those connections. I've been reading the series since 1999 and never once thought of stopping, not even after the carnage of A Storm of Swords.

I'm not sure if Tomino is directly comparable. With the exceptions of Ideon and Victory Gundam, he tends to stack all his deaths at the end. Also, since Turn A Gundam he's become happy Tomino and doesn'ts mass murder his casts anymore. If you watched Victory, did you stop when lots of people started dying?

. Tassie Dave wrote: "I'm glad G.R.R.Martin makes everyone fair game for death. Real life is like that. People come and go in our lives..."

If I wanted 'Real Life', I would read a newspaper. Not fantasy.

I empathize entirely with the OP, although I label the condition Joss Whedon Syndrome: the mistaken belief by an author that just because random deaths sometimes do occur in reality, they should also in fiction. Cause of many a lemming.

P. Aaron wrote: "If I wanted 'Real Life', I would read a newspaper."

But our real life experiences dictate our emotional response to stories.

I would rather have a logical believable story that's relatable to real life, where bad stuff happens and endings aren't aways happy, than a story where everyone lives happily ever after.

Deaths of main characters in fantasy is not new to George R.R. Martin. The roots of fantasy in myths, legends and folklore don't always end well for the heros and main characters.

It can be disappointing if a character you've developed an attachment to dies. But in fantasy, I'm always hoping that the character resurrects somehow, as in the case with Gandalf. I think authors should pull our emotional strings in a good way by killing a great character and then resurrecting the character. We all have a wishful thinking that beloved people who have gone from our lives would come back to us better than ever.

Whenever I hear people talk about Martin killing characters I think of a quote from Neil Stephenson. He was asked about whether people should care about his characters because they might get killed off. He said "By all means, get attached. Get totally attached. Yeah, I’m all in favor of getting attached. Even if it ends in tears, it’s still a good thing."

You get a better experience if you get attached to the characters because their deaths mean something to you. Of course, I haven't read any GRRM yet, so I don't know if he overdoes it. But with other authors, get attached. Emotional investment in the characters and the story make it worthwhile.

Tassie Dave wrote: "I would rather have a logical believable story that's relatable to real life, where bad stuff happens and endings aren't aways happythat'..."

And there's the crux of the matter: I believe it's possible to write a logical, believable story that's relatable to real life in which, while bad stuff happens, it's not that bad, and happy endings are possible.

Given the choice between a believable story with a happy ending and a believable story with an unhappy ending, I will choose the former. I don't even understand what possible reason would cause someone to choose the latter...unless, deep down, they think "believable" and "happy" are essentially incompatible.

P. Aaron wrote: "Tassie Dave wrote: "I don't even understand what possible reason would cause someone to choose the latter..."

Sometime a sad ending can be more powerful than a happy ending.

Most books and films are going to have a happy ending that's what makes the sad or unexpected ending more powerful.

Happy or sad, I want the right ending not the Hollywood ending.

For me, what's impressive with Tomino (big fan of his Super Robots like Voltes V, which employed that technique) and Martin is that the deaths matter, as opposed to recent comic book deaths which have been pretty much a revolving door.

You also don't want a contrived story where the protagonists always win or feel safe.