Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion

I love hearing people's understandings about Hell. It usually shows me what kind of theology they are pursuing and how they go about reading the Bible.

I do find that most people seem to have a Hollywood view of Hell. They believe what the movies and fiction writers say over what the Bible actually mentions.
The other popular belief is that Hell is a parable and isn't really going to happen. A loving God would never do that. Jesus' was just joking when he said all that stuff.

So tell me your views on Hell. I'm curious.

I'll start:

Hell has flames. It's a literal place.
You are alone there. You aren't burning or drowning.
You aren't screaming or being tortured by imps.
You are not decaying or melting.
You have NOT changed your nature or desires.
You are separated from God and hope.

I have looked at every single verse in the Bible that mentions Hell. I have read numerous books by crackpots and wise theologians who have studied hell (or claimed to have visited the place.)

If there's so much confusion - that could mean a thing or two. God knows what he's doing. And people refuse to accept it.
Or

God knows what he's doing and people can't wait to abuse it.
Or its none of our business. But Jesus said enough about it to keep us informed.

I've learned that you can't change most people's minds. You can only learn and share.

Which Hell, Rod?

The O.T. hell (Sheol) has no flames. It's a dark, shadowy, dreary place that you sink to from the grave. At first, many believed you slowly dwindled away, but when the doctrine of resurrection began to infiltrate forms of Judaism, Sheol became merely a holding place while you awaited your fate.

The N.T. hell is just as confusing. Greek ideas of everlasting punishment and an eternal soul began to make inroads into Christian thinking probably about the time of Jesus. The parable about Lazarus probably stems from a Hellenistic story. Matthew, on the other hand, loves to talk about fire and gnashing of teeth. What did Jesus think? He really says little except when he refers to gehenna, which doesn't sound eternal at all ... just a place to be disposed of and forgotten.

Revelation echoes this. Revelation says hell will be destroyed, cast into the fire alongside human bodies.

Paul believed in annihilation, not hell. Good people lived on; bad people died forever.

Or should we talk about the evolution of ideas since Bible times? Like Dante's version?

Hell is absolutely huge. I might argue it is the most pressing issue today as it is the reason why many leave the faith and many who stay in struggle with it.

I have read the 4 views of hell that pastorjeff mentioned and found it quite good. I found, if I recall, the "conditional" view most convincing.

I think people have a problem with hell because we basically say, "Jesus loves you so much he'd die for you...but if you don't accept that fact he'll torture you in hell for all eternity."

Yeah, that's a loving God. Right.

One thing we need to get straight - do people end up in hell simply for not believing in Jesus OR for choosing to live a life of evil? How you answer this is huge because either hell is an arbitrary decision God makes based on how you answer a theological quiz, or hell is the result of your own self-destructive actions?

I think a strong biblical case can be made for hell not being eternal: death is death, the second death is just the end, eternal "life" is a gift from God and so on. I am skeptical of hell literally lasting forever when proponents of that view focus so much on one or two verses from Revelation, implying those verses trump the rest of the Bible that seems to say death is the end. Another way to put it, is the soul inherently immortal in the Bible or was that adopted from Greek philosophy?

I don't think you can get rid of hell though. The idea that a loving God would not punish evil can only be believed in a comfortable culture like our own. Women whose children have been murdered and who themselves have been raped cry out for the justice only a just God can give. A good God cannot look at the Holocaust or the Rwandan genocide or sex trafficking and shrug His shoulders. If the universe is just, justice must be done on evil.

So against some I defend the existence of hell but against others I would argue that we have misunderstood what hell is and why it matters.

Finally, I think your theology (Calvinist, Arminian) plays into how you view hell too.

Thanks for the responses guys. Its a tricky topic.

The part i've been trying to figure out is: Death, Hades, Bottomless pit, Lake of Fire.

I believe alot of this is descriptive. That's what John had to work with. He didn't get a memo or chart before going in. He's just going on visuals.

Revelation 20:10
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

So the bottomless pit (abyss) is just a storage tank for Satan. Simple enough.

So the lake of fire is simple: The end. All the bad guys end up there for eternity.

So the Sea, Death and Hades is confusing. Lots and lots of different views on these.
Revelation 6:8
Behold, a pale horse! And its riders name was death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

So: are death and hades people/characters/demons or places? it seems Revelation says they are not places. Places don't usually follow one another - even on symbolic horses. Does death kill people and hades bags them? These things are given permission and authority. Interesting...
Is Hades possibly where non-believer's wait to be judged? The guy in Luke 16 sure seemed to be judged and condemned already.

Is the Lake of Fire a liquid lake? No mention of swimming or drowning anywhere in the Bible. I think it just looks like a big lake. John is describing as best he can.

So does all this match luke 16:19-31?
Which I don't believe to be a parable. Anyway...
it gives us tons of information. It uses the word Hades; Some say this is Hell, some say place of the dead (for a time), some say symbolic garbage dump for the soul. I wish Jesus would of used a different or more clear word here. But i'm sure there's a reason for it.

Revelation 1:18 says:
"I am alive forever more, and I have the keys of Death and Hades."

So is this the Key to 2 places? Or keys that kept 2 creatures locked up or restrained?

Lee i've never heard anyone claim Paul believed in annihilation? Is there a verse for this?
___________________________________________________

I just want to clearly follow what the Bible says. I'll think anything if the Bible clearly explains it. It is supposed to be the Word of God after all.

So any thoughts or info.

Rod, regarding Paul and his belief in annihilation, this is a typical verse we all know:

Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Either you live eternal or you die. Now it's possible to interpret such verses esoterically, but that does violence then to what we imagine about eternal life. Can't have it both ways.

Ummmh? We all die. Everyone of us. That is the wage of sin.

Eternal existence in Hell isn't really life. But in Heaven we will live life to the full.

It sounds simple to me. Eternal existence either way.

"Eternal existence in Hell isn't really life"

This is where the debate really is: how you define terms like "death" and "life" and so on.

I think the annihilation case is strong simply because in it death really means death. Death does not mean - you exist forever in a torture chamber. That makes no sense.

Personally, I think eternal conscious torment only makes sense if you are a five-point Calvinist in which case God elected some for heaven and the rest for hell. I also am not sure how such a God is really loving, but I have good friends who are Calvinists who try to keep me in line.

I'm still exploring Calvinism. So far I agree with Chuck Swindoll (We are both 4.5 Calvinists). God definitely has his elect. But Salvation seems to be available to others. There are a few verses that declare this.

But i am totally against Annihilation. God is very clear about his wrath and Justice. Satan and Demons are not being annihilated. I have looked into the few verses people say mention annihilation - I totally did not see them saying that.

Why would the Bible mention 2 deaths if they really meant something else? Death from the physical, death from the spiritual presence of God. You would need a 3rd death for annihilation.

The big fun question is: Why does God have an elect? The Bible mentions his elect many many times - therefore there's definitely something to it. Mostly that there WILL be a Bride for Christ. God guaranteed it.

Just remember that God is not needy and over-emotionally loving. God does what he wants and deems necessary. He loves animals yet requested many animal sacrifices on his alter. Its all part of his plan.

And I don't think its eternal conscious torment. It's eternal boredom and self righteousness that rebels against the one Holy God. I don't believe the flames are painful. And the anguish and torment are done to oneself. God is not in the Business of torture.

I've been reading everything I can on this. I want to fully understand God. So i'm still reading.

I think the best way to understand hell is to understand how its ideas evolved.

The History of Hell is a fun book. There are lots of more scholarly treatments, but I still like this one.

http://www.dubiousdisciple.com/2010/1...

Very interesting. It is fascinating seeing how Hell evolves around the Bible.

Quote:
" Satan, once destined to chains in a dark netherworld transforms before your eyes into an evil taskmaster. Now, trident in hand, he gleefully tortures lost souls in a lake of fire forever and ever, amen."

Its amazing so many people come to this conclusion. which is very different than what the Bible explains.

Hi all,

I actually believe that hell is a spiritual place. I don't believe people get magically regenerative bodies for the purpose of being punished forever.

This concept seems to have developed in medieval times.

With regards to Satan so many people have this strange concept of Satan being the master of hell. This appears to come from the belief of hell being a place of separation from God.

I would propose that hell is actually a place God created, this is why Jesus wept over the destruction of Jerusalem but had no tears when he declared that Capernaum would be brought down to Hades.

In the early church the law camp and the grace camp had profoundly different perspectives on hell.

It might help if folks who believe in hell would tell why. Rod links the lake of fire in Revelation to hell, which seems to be how he thinks of it. Full of flames. He also believes literally in the description of hades in the parable of lazarus and the rich man. So we have Rod's description: a lake of fire like the Greek underworld.

Joshua, to what do you point your "spiritual" understanding? Does anybody else have a biblical description of hell?

Hi Lee,

I take the perspective taught in Luke that Hades is the place of the dead that is corrective for some and comfort for others.

From this position I would point to an abundance of references to hell in the old testament.Most people understand hell purely from a new testament perspective. However Sheol has many mentions in the old testament.

Some of these mentions are quite significant, for example Deut 32:22 reads "a fire is kindled in my anger that burns to the depths of Sheol"

also Song of Songs 8:6 "love is strong as death, jealousy as fierce as Sheol. It's flashes are flashes of fire the very flame of the Lord" (check out the hebrew)

When Jesus spoke of Hades in Luke 16 it was a now reality that he was describing. He also said to the Pharisees that Abraham lives, yet He declared that the resurrection was still to come.

So Moses writes "you return man to dust and say return children of men." The physical body dies and the spirit returns to God.

The resurrection is not yet and without Christ the spirit goes to Hades. Therefore I perceive hell, which is part of Hades, as a spiritual reality.

It's quite common in scripture to describe spiritual realities in natural terms for the sake of understanding. I see hell the same way.

Moses describes God himself as a consuming fire, but God is spirit. Malachi prophecied that the Christ would come as a refiners fire. Jesus said He came to cast fire on the earth but there was no bushfires The Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples and they saw "tongues of fire".

It's a fascinating subject and I've actually written a book that devotes a few chapters to this topic. I believe the Greeks got a little off track by bringing spiritual things into the physical realm.

In my understanding, the only way to be separated from an omnipresent God is through ignorance (in other words, to think of yourself apart from God is an error). God, if he is omnipresent, would be as present in the flames of hell as he is in his throneroom. The difference between heaven and hell is not one of place, as if one could physically be far from God or close to God. The difference is in the state of the soul, either in rebellion or faith.

This is, I think, why to Jesus, to know God IS the Life Eternal, and why to the author of Hebrews faith is not merely a foreshadow, but the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for.

It is also why those who do not believe are condemned already. Their unbelief IS their separation from God, and the only sense in which they can be separated from he in whom they have their being - that is, they can only be separated in terms of their understanding.

That being said, I take issue with the tendency of many modern Christians to say things like, 'The idea of hell, or eternal punishment is so small minded it must be a human idea.'

Both Jesus and the Buddha talked about hell, and neither of them were small minded. The question to me is not whether hell exists, or whether it is as bad as all that. I fear it is worse than any place of physical torment. The fact of the matter is that people don't generally commit suicide to escape physical pain, but rather to escape spiritual or mental horrors. If hell is a place of spiritual anguish, then it would be better to have the flames etc. as a distraction.

The question to me, again, is not whether hell is real, but what IS hell.

I think hell and sin are two sides of the same coin, the one temporal (sin) and the other eternal (hell). Just as faith IS the Life Eternal, Sin, blindness to God (who is Love), is the Death Eternal.

Fascinating thoughts from both of you.

Jake, I'm curious where you think Jesus spoke of hell, though. Are you referring to the Hades reference, assuming that hell is a subpart of Hades? Or are you assuming Jesus' Gehenna sayings refer to an afterlife punishment?

I like what you say Jake,

With regards to "what is it" I get left in Pauls statement that the natural mind is not able to comprehend spiritual things. So we have pictures.

But I think I have seen a glimpse in how some people react to goodness. I have seen people with spiritual problems just lose their mind and fly into rage in the presence of someone who is beautiful and good. Like when Stephen was martyred.

I think that is the "fire" dynamic right there, like in Malachi He is like a refiners fire. The crap comes to the surface!

I must mention here I believe hell has a refining purpose to enable the fulfilment of Pauls statement in Phillipians that all will come to acknowledge Christ.

Lee - I'm referring to Jesus' statements that are translated 'hell,' such as 'it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.'

Neither Jesus nor Buddha used the word 'hell' obviously.

But as far as whether I believe it is a part of Hades or whether I believe it refers to an after life punishment is concerned, I would have to believe in Space in the first case, and Time in the second in order to believe such things.

Jake,

I am just looking for some context here, are you saying you don't believe in space or time? Is that a buddhist concept?

Lee, why are you concerned on space or time with the place of damnation or whatever you want to call it. The only reference to time is the place of no return. But hell is something that is very real for people long before they die.

Some newspaper man asked Pope Benedict once on hell and he answered that it is the place you just do not want to be. In his view it was to be in motivational seminar for middle management (and that kind of hell you get here as well).

The important thing for me is to be on the other side of hell, disregarding if it is in the here and know or at any time or space.

Cay, like Rod, I'm fascinated by what people believe and why. Then there's people like Jake who leave me totally baffled since they don't believe in Space or Time, haha.

The way beliefs about hell evolved are very interesting. Take Jake's verse: "It is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched." Why on earth did our translators use the word 'hell' here? Jesus is quoting word-for-word Isaiah 66:4 about the destruction of Jerusalem, and promising Jerusalem is going to be destroyed in like manner. His wording would be unmistakably recognized by his listeners as the language of the prophets, meant to refer to the prophecies. Isaiah makes it clear that it is corpses which are burning and being eaten by worms, not eternal conscious torment the way many people imagine hell.

Our translators decided Jesus must have been referring metaphorically to an afterlife punishment (a strange assumption, really, totally out of touch with Jesus' world) and now today's hellfire preachers love to quote the verse to scare the bejabbers out of us. It's fascinating how today's beliefs evolved.

Interesting Lee,

I note the context of Isaiah 66 is the new heaven and new earth. So would I be correct in thinking your beliefs infer the creation of new heavens and earth is a process we are now in?

yes. I see apocalyptic language as the norm for echatological writings in the bible. When the Bible's writers discussed the end of one age and the beginning of another (in this case, the beginning of the messianic age, when God would come back to earth and rule) they often fell into a habit of exaggerated, metaphorical language.

I would possibly agree. Jesus said he came to cast fire on earth and John the baptist said Jesus would immerse us (Christians) in the Holy Spirit and fire.

I do think fire is a real thing, spiritually that is. You might like my book! haha

Oh NO - another Charismatic. (am I wrong Joshua?) That's okay - i'm another crazy fundamentalist of some sort.

When the Bible mentions the fires of hell that often -- maybe they actually ARE FIRES. Just a thought. If it was 1 or 2 verses I would understand...but there are many across numerous books, and context is everything.

Of course Luke 16 even gives us some specific details.

Wouldn't it be interesting if Hell is exactly what the English Bible says it is?

I was just poking around on the internet reading about how the Apostle Paul didn't clearly mention Hell. But he did mention some interesting things about judgement.

Yes,

Paul was very interesting because he never mentioned hell fire but was big on judgement and the wrath (or passion) of God. He was also big on every knee shall bow.

If you consider Paul's writings in isolation he seems to have the perception that the wrath of God would be revealed to those who are unrighteous resulting in the subjection of all humanity to Christ.

I think to Paul salvation and attaining to the resurrection were separate issues since he states confidently all Israel will be saved, yet writes that he does not consider himself as attaining the prize but pressing toward it.

missed your first post, it would be interesting if hell was a real place of fire. But I find that difficult to reconcile with the myriad of scriptures on the subject. Though I am sure the King James translators saw it that way.

For me to view fire that way requires a bi-polar view of God. Isaiah in chapter 33 mentions everlasting burning and eternal fire but he is actually talking about God and indicates that it is the righteous who dwell in everlasting fire while sinners are afraid of it!

Its a mind bender but it we translate baptise directly as "immerse" (which is actually what the greek says) It brings perfect clarity to John's statement that Christ would immerse us in the Holy Spirit and fire.

As far as Christians go I don't what you could label me haha. Early apostolic maybe.

what is your book, joshua?

It's called "Hope Reformation".