The Sword and Laser discussion

Aloha wrote: "I just put Three Kingdoms in my to read. I read an excerpt and it doesn't seem bad to read, so I got the eBook."

I'll be curious to know what you think. The basic premise is wonderful -- enough battles and intrigue and betrayals for an entire Erikson or Martin series.

(And if you ever watch Chinese movies, John Woo did a movie called Red Cliff based on one of the major battles in Three Kingdoms. The international version is like five hours long but they also did a two hour theatrical release.)

The Crippled God by Steven Erikson.

I will, Joseph. I like John Woo. I have to look for Red Cliff. Thank you. The five hours international version looks like it'd be a fun film party thing to do. LOL.

I went book hoarding, wiki'd and found out that Three Kingdoms was one of four great classical novels. I went on Amazon and purchased the best version I could find of each, illustrated with TOC.

The Water Margin. Shi Naian
Monkey: The Journey to the West
Dream of the Red Chamber

My reading stomach is getting stronger, so I can put up with length along with difficult wording. If a book is under 500 pages, then that is short for me.

Joseph wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I just put Three Kingdoms in my to read. I read an excerpt and it doesn't seem bad to read, so I got the eBook."

I'll be curious to know what you think. The basic premise is wonder..."

Whoo-hoo!!!! I now have Red Cliff I & II. I think that totals the 5 hours one. I also have Three Kingdoms: Resurrection of the Dragon (2008), which is loosely based on the book. Okay, now to find a weekend movie marathon time!

Aloha wrote: "Whoo-hoo!!!! I now have Red Cliff I & II. I think that totals the 5 hours one. I also have Three Kingdoms: Resurrection of the Dragon (2008), which is loosely based on the book. Okay, now to f..."

Yep, Red Cliff I & II is the full version. Now I need to check Netflix for Resurrection of the Dragon ... :)

I have a version of Journey to the West and a version of Outlaws of the Marsh; should probably read those someday, as well as grab a copy of Dream of the Red Chamber.

The History of Rasselas, Prince of Abissinia

I took Tristram Shandy with glee and enjoyment, and I somehow made it through the first book of Gormenghast, but never have i been faced with such a soul killing slog than having to read that book.
I had to read that thing for English 10. It was the only school related book i have ever wanted to rip in half and throw out the window. It was the teacher's favourite book, and over half the class took the toady road and said they loved it too. I spent the rest of the unit shaking my head and disagreeing with everyone, writing a particularly spiteful essay about how stupid it was. I think i got a decent mark on it too. I would only recommend that book to an enemy, though they would probably love it just to spite me.

Aloha wrote: "I went book hoarding, wiki'd and found out that Three Kingdoms was one of four great classical novels. I went on Amazon and purchased the best version I could find of each, illustrated with TOC.

The Water Margin. Shi Naian
Monkey: The Journey to the West
Dream of the Red Chamber.."

Thanks for those links Aloha. I am familiar with the top 2 and have added them to my wish list.
Incidentally, does anyone remember the TV series 'The Water Margins', made in China in 70's. It was shown on British TV. There was another series made in the 90's but I have never seen that one.

A few of the more challenging books I've read or attempted:

The Children's Hospital by Chris Adrian
Kinda like reading biblical prophecy, powerful and compelling, but also disorienting.

Mason Dixon by Thomas Pynchon the language and way words are capitlized made it difficult for me to get into this book. I set it aside after aprox. 150 pages. I plan on attempting it again this summer.

House of Leaves by Mark Z. Danielewski - I don't know what to say about this book other than it is my personal favorite and there's nothing else like it.

The Darkness That Comes Before by R. Scott Bakker and all the subsequent books in his Second Apocalypse series. Philosophical epic fantasy given the "literary" treatment.

I agree about Lord of the Rings. It took me many attempts to read it without blanks where my brain shut off while my eyes scanned the words. In my opinion it is a great story, badly written, but that might not be the popular view. I've heard the Silmarillion is even worse for that, so I've never attempted it.

Homer's Illiad was entertaining, but got very dull during long stretches of 'such and such a person, son of such and such a person, who did such and such a thing, took a spear to the chest. I'm not all that interested in the deeds of someone who is going to be killed immediately after, though some of the gory descriptions are great! lol

Also, I have tried a few times to read Salem's Lot by Stephen King, and each time I have given up after the first few pages every time.

Ruth wrote: "I'm not all that interested in the deeds of someone who is going to be killed immediately after..."

This is one of my pet peeves too! I hate reading a whole page, or pages, about a guards personal life when his only part in the book is to immediately die.

Aloha wrote: "I have to read Derrida, since he is highly influential in postmodernist art and literature, which I'm getting more into. I'm glad philosophy is a voluntary study for me, since my degree is in art ..."

Ugh, Derrida. Had to read so much Derrida in college. NEVER AGAIN!

Most difficult books I've read: predictably enough
Ulysses and Finnegans Wake. The latter I lemmed, despite being in a class that was about nothing BUT that book. i actually scare kids these days by giving them Wake, telling them to open it to any page and start reading, then telling them "Now that's what EVERY book in college is like."

Closer to S&L territory: most of China Mielville's work is very slow reading for me, but rewarding. I usually read on the train to/from work, so I have to double up my concentration.

Aloha wrote: "I have to read Derrida.."

Have you seen documentary, Derrida? http://www.derridathemovie.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrida_...

Hard as in over your head or hard as in cant wait to put it down and get to cleaning the kitchen?

So many books are great but very difficult...it took me 3 times to get through Gravity's Rainbow.

Some boooks are hard emotionally. I think The Handmaid's Tale is a literary treasure, but I will kill myself before I would read it again.

and for the simply bored me right out of my mind, well it's a tie between Foreigner and Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell

Ulysses and Gravity's Rainbow is on my list to read within the next two months. I'm starting to get into Mielville, starting with Railsea. I was bored with his work before, but now that I'm getting into boring and long books...LOL

Keith wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I have to read Derrida, since he is highly influential in postmodernist art and literature, which I'm getting more into. I'm glad philosophy is a voluntary study for me, since my deg..."

I'll have to look for that. Thank you, Dharmakirti.

Dharmakirti wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I have to read Derrida.."

Have you seen documentary, Derrida? http://www.derridathemovie.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrida_..."

Kevin wrote: "Alex wrote: "Steven Erikson. I loved it the whole way, but it was much harder than anything else I've tried."

I would have to agree at that."

Me too. I end up loving the books but I lemmed out after book 7. I just wasn't enjoying STARTING any of the books. Unlike George RR Martin which had me reaching for the next book every time.

Lightpaths. Howard v Hendrix

Probably A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. One of the few books I didn't finish. I am not a James Joyce fan.

Book I finished, The Sound and the Fury.

Hey, Lady Di! I'm getting ready to tackle James Joyce soon. I loved The Sound and the Fury.

For me, 2 that stand out are Hard Times by Charles Dickens and Gormenghast by Mervyn Peake. I couldn't finish either one of them, they were just too boring!

I had to read Hard Times in high school, but managed to get by without finishing the book. I've sometimes wondered if another pass now that I'm older and (supposedly) wiser would make it easier to swallow, but there's so many other more interesting reads on my list that I don't really see the point in attempting it.

Gormenghast was something a friend of mine read and loved, so I gave it a go. I read a hundred pages or so and just wasn't finding it interesting, so I quit and moved on to something else. Again, so much more to read.

What I find most interesting about this thread is how many of the books in this list of difficult ones are ones that I particularly enjoy and didn't find overly difficult at all! It's really interesting to see such different perspectives on things.

Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco.

Started and gave up many times. Really glad I finally put the effort in and finished it.

I listened to the audio with Tim Curry on a road trip. It was abridged, which I was not aware of. It was recommended by a brainy friend of mine. It was his favorite book. I thought it was okay, but wasn't worthy of my friend's intellect. Afterwards, I realized my error. I've put it on my list to read the unabridged. I have to know why this is my friend's favorite, since I respect his intelligence.

Pickle wrote: "Consider Phlebas it was my first Iain M Banks book and it will be the last. I enjoyed it and glad it had a happy ending but i didnt enjoy the Culture idea or his style of writing."

I forced myself to finish it, but I really didn't like it. People seem to love Iain M Banks so much, I was hoping maybe I'd just read the wrong book in the series...

Speaking of Iain M. Banks, Feersum Endjinn was a struggle bekawz hee uzed weerd fonetik speling in it.

let's see= Ulysses = nah was pretty good, read it 4 times before I was 12.

someone here put the edda's I guess like the elder Edda- tough to get a good translation- but that is one place tolkien got some of his idea's from

bible is not bad either- just don't go looking for answers all the time

toughest was really philosophy- spinosa for one, but other philosophers as well- they all think too much

Foucault's Pendulum is very difficult to get through because Umberto uses so much trivial material that keeping it all straight will give you a headache. But hidden throughout is a mystery that is worth discovering. Remember his skill in The Name of the Rose.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Riddley Walker by Russell Hoban. Really hard postapocalyptic pidgin English.

Pride and Prejudice was the hardest to understand book I ever read. There was a lot of rereading, but I really enjoyed it in the end. Mmmm...Mr. Darcy...

Megan wrote: "Pride and Prejudice was the hardest to understand book I ever read. There was a lot of rereading, but I really enjoyed it in the end. Mmmm...Mr. Darcy..."

I remember reading this in school when I was about thirteen and our English teacher being driven mad by the fact that we could never remember that countenance meant face.

Aloha wrote: "I'll have to look for that. Thank you, Dharmakirti.

Dharmakirti wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I have to read Derrida.."

Have you seen documentary, Derrida? http://www.derridathemovie.com/
http://en.wik..."

Aloha, thought you might be interested that Mark Z Danielewski was an assistant editor and worked on sound for the documentary.

I have to think about it because there's a difference between hard and annoying as I find most of the books I have trouble getting through annoying rather than hard as in difficult to comprehend. I find pompous books hard to get through for the same reason.

JRR Tolkien the Similarion
I tried in high school to read this book three or four times and I could not read it all the way through. For Christmas about ten years ago my mom bought me the books on CD for the lord of the rings all three and the Similarion too. I have listened to them about three times now and I love it a lot.

Elizabeth wrote: "One summer I challenged myself to read Paradise Lost. I managed it but just barely. As soon as the devil isn't in it, that book is D U L L. And in verse.

On the up side, the first two chapters ar..."

At some point I want to read a bunch of that kind of thing -- Paradise Lost, The Divine Comedy, Orlando Furioso, The Faerie Queene, etc. -- but realistically I'll probably end up just picking up a stack of D&D tie-in novels or something instead.

My first response was Histories by Herodotus but reading down the thread I got to Derrida... It was like a flashback to a previously stifled memory of pain and horror ::shudders::

Thanks, Dharmakirti. I'm not surprised, considering his references that show how well-read he is in all the books we consider difficult.

Dharmakirti wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I'll have to look for that. Thank you, Dharmakirti.

Dharmakirti wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I have to read Derrida.."

Have you seen documentary, Derrida? http://www.derridathemovie.com/..."

Megan wrote: "Pride and Prejudice was the hardest to understand book I ever read. There was a lot of rereading, but I really enjoyed it in the end. Mmmm...Mr. Darcy..."

Try Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, that's a bit more entertaining :)

When I was, I think, ten or eleven years old, I read The Name of the Rose, mostly because of the spanish computer game.

Most adults around me tried to read it because of the movie and they Lemmed (am I using that right?) it. I read it all, every single word, and I assured everyone I understood it perfectly. That was obviously not true, I see it now. I got the "detective story", and that was all. Nevertheless, some things about history and religion stuck with me, and were helpful years later.

I wanted to read Foucault's Pendulum afterwards, and my mother warned against it. I'm glad I listened to her (then).

Of the Sword & Laser genres, I too Lemmed The Silmarillion. The first chapter read too similar to the Holy Bible, which I guess it's the point; thanks, but no, thanks, though.

I have a hunch that The Silmarillion is probably the most Lemmed book around here…

One hundred years of solitude was one the hardest books to read. The story covers a long period of time and the names, oh God, are all the same!!

Still a remarkable book though.

I enjoyed One Hundred Years of Solitude. I think I groove on complexity. I find it harder to go through a long book that doesn't have much going on. I can't wait for it to be over. I've read several, but I can't recall one off my head. I guess I forgot them all due to pain suppression.

Not to say Solitude was complex or that you meant it was complex. I don't know why I mentioned complexity. Oh, well....

Steve Pinkers How the Mind Works, I started it, got in a 100 pages and re-started it cause I realised I didn't understand most of what he was talking about.

I also thought the Illiad was a bit of slog in places with the name listing although I do want to re-read it before I read the Odyssey and Aenid

I loved How the Mind Works. It's full of information that connects to the other science books I've read and will read. I didn't find it difficult.

Seamus wrote: "Steve Pinkers How the Mind Works, I started it, got in a 100 pages and re-started it cause I realised I didn't understand most of what he was talking about.

I also thought the Illiad was a bit of ..."

Derek wrote: "Oscar wrote: "now I remember Dante is reaaaaaallyyy hard to understand"

I found the best (and only) way to understand Dante's numerous pop culture political references was to get a volume with goo..."

I ate Dante up! Loved, loved, loved him.

On the other hand I had a horrid time finishing The Lord of the Rings Return of the King.

I couldn't get through Against the Day by Thomas Pynchon. Gave up 300 pages in, because I realized I had no idea what had happened so far.

The hardest book I actually finished was Vanity Fair, but it took me a couple of months. At least by the end I *think* I got most of the names and characters right, but it surely was no walk in the park.

I want to reread it someday, just to see what was lost on me then. So many books, so little time…

Anne wrote: "I couldn't get through Against the Day by Thomas Pynchon. Gave up 300 pages in, because I realized I had no idea what had happened so far."

The same thing happened with me. Against the Day was my evening read for a little while and I had no problems. I really liked the Chums of Chance flying in to Chicago to attends the Worlds Fair. I'm not sure why but somewhere I just lost track of what was going on and became very confused so I put the book aside.

Atlas Shrugged. It was:
a. REALLY LONG
b. the first two-thirds were very slow moving
c. the anti-communist message in every sentence made it a bit weighty
d. REALLY LONG
e. 9 point font - terrible
f. 60 page rant where every sentence was pretty much the same thing repeated

I agree. It wasn't hard, just not pleasant. If you really want to learn about Objectivism, I would recommend books written by Ayn Rand's disciple, Leonard Peikoff, Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand.

Sage wrote: "Atlas Shrugged. It was:
a. REALLY LONG
b. the first two-thirds were very slow moving
c. the anti-communist message in every sentence made it a bit weighty
d. REALLY LONG
e. 9 point font - terrible
..."

Instead of Against the Day, maybe you guys should try something easy like Gravity's Rainbow.

Tamahome wrote: "Instead of Against the Day, maybe you guys should try something easy like Gravity's Rainbow."

My goal for this summer is for it to be the summer of Pynchon. I have Mason & Dixon, Gravity's Rainbow and Against the Day all sitting on my shelf and I will read each one by the end of the season. And if I have time, I would like to re-visit the Crying of Lot 49 (the first Pynchon novel I read).