The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Here is the folder for comments and discussions associated with the Week No. 4 reading of Charles Dickens' The Old Curiosity Shop. This folder is for Chapters XVI through XXI, and runs from May 13th through the 19th. Have fun, and I wish all of you a great week! I am off to Utah for a four-day business trip. Cheers! Chris

Doesn't seem as if we have that many people posting anymore - only 7 posts for the last chapters.

But I'm still hanging in there! :-)

I like it - but then again, I like almost everything Dickens.

Perhaps our readers are spread too thin? 3 novels on the go at present.

MadgeUK wrote: "Perhaps our readers are spread too thin? 3 novels on the go at present."

Good point. And it could be spring fever - people are out and about rather than sitting in front of their computers - which is good too!

But I don't think that it is a problem that there are 2-3 choices. I don't post on other forums for the most part, but do look at others to see what they are reading, and there are a couple of choices and buddy reads going on.

I think choice is good. For example, I would rather watch paint dry than read The Wings of a Dove so I was pleased to have Dickens going as well. :-)

I hope we have enough people to keep going. Although I'm tempted by everything this group reads, I am only doing the Dickens project, because there are just too many other things I want to read from various genres and time periods. 5 chapters a week or so is perfect. Here are some thoughts on this section:

Hooray! Show business people have arrived. This is my favorite part of the book so far. I liked the behind the scenes look at the Punch and Judy show and the other carnival acts. It seems the show biz folks aren't all as good-hearted as in Nicholas Nickleby, or maybe they are just poorer and see Nell and her grandfather as a means to get money.

By the way, does the grandfather have a name? He's usually just "the old man". It is pretty unlikely that after weeks of illness and barely leaving his room, he can walk for miles, but perhaps thats his desperation to get away.

Another reason this section is livelier is that we see more of Kit. He's an interesting case. Dickens often has good people who are naturally refined and sensitive (Oliver Twist, Kate & Nicholas Nickleby) regardless of surroundings. He has some bad or semi-bad people who are shaped by bad surroundings, like Nancy in Oliver Twist. Kit is not refined, but he is honest, loyal, hardworking and determined. Maybe he would grow up to be another Sam Weller.

Robin, I am still here and not giving up, but just need a little bit of time to catch up. I really enjoy this project...

I'm still in, and still enjoying it although I find all the threads a little hard to follow at times.

1. Nell and the Old Man-I'm glad to see a bit of a spark in Nell-catching on that Codlin and Short may not mean them well and that perhaps they aren't the best possible travelling companions and then making a run for it when they're occupied with their show. I also really enjoyed the Carnival characters. The rural people do at times seem over friendly and welcoming, but it might just be that strangers were rare and so provided a bit of entertainment.

2. Quilp-rather over the top in his horridness, but I guess Dickens was never particularly subtle in his characters-and Richard Swiveller and their machinations over Nell-I understand Swiveller's ignorant pursuit of Nell's fortunes but I'm less clear on what is motivating Quilp, other then pleasure in the misfortunes of others. This thread is the most confusing to me at present.

3. Kit-probably my favourite character-he seems good and kind but also has some ambition and initiative. I'm anticipating some comic relief from his new employers.

Robin, I agree that Dickens (and this seems common among Victorians) often had characters who, despite many hardships, neglect or abuse were absolute paragons of virtue and I see this a bit in Kit (although I don't think he has suffered anything but poverty) and much more so in Nell. And this is vividly contrasted by Quilp and to a lesser extent by the scheming Swiveller.

The name Swiveller seems a great combination of Sniveler and Swindler. Dickens is wonderful with names. In Nickleby, we had the repellent Gride, sort of grind + pride. Not sure about Quilp, except that its unusual just like he is.

Robin wrote: "The name Swiveller seems a great combination of Sniveler and Swindler. Dickens is wonderful with names. In Nickleby, we had the repellent Gride, sort of grind + pride. Not sure about Quilp, except ..."

In my mind Quilp sounds ugly and it does resemble the sound of mulch after the rain. And he is a human mulch:-) And yes, Dickens is extremely inventive with the names. One more chapter to go, and I will be ready to post.:-)

Done with this week's section! As it has been mentioned earlier in this thread, Dickens gives us some insight into the world of show-biz for the poor. This section of the novel seems to be a logical continuation of the previous novel we read (NN). Dickens first showed us the world of art and theater, and in this novel he is showing us the ugly side of entertainment. And I believe this explains why these people are money-driven and self-seeking - art is a mission and vocation while entertainment is first and foremost a way to earn your income. The characters are not as bad as Quip, who is an example of overpowering and engulfing evil, but they are not good either. It is a rare thing to see shadowy, grey characters in this novel because Dickens is often antagonistic with his characters.

It seems that the name of the book is gradually acquiring the new meaning: it is the old curiosity shop of all weirdos and unusual people:-)

And Kit is getting more and more likable.

One more thing - that stubborn pony is hilarious and possesses a number of human features, but he might be an unlikely ray of hope for Kit.

Zulfiya, I like the idea that the world is a curiosity shop. I found I have 2 videos of this story, one recently from TV with Derek Jacobi and the other an older version from Hallmark with Peter Ustinov. So I watched the beginnings of both. Neither one comes close to showing the whole world of Dickens, I suppose no film can do that. Neither one makes Quilp an actual dwarf, although he is ugly, nasty and has bad teeth.

Robin wrote: "Zulfiya, I like the idea that the world is a curiosity shop. I found I have 2 videos of this story, one recently from TV with Derek Jacobi and the other an older version from Hallmark with Peter Us..."

It is a good idea to compare and contrast the artistic versions of the novel. I am going to do the same as soon as we read the book. It is always interesting to follow how similar/different their interpretations can be. But you are right, there is always something missing. Well, the maestro's characters are always bigger than life and truly original, and it is hard to represent them in all complexity.

Zulfiya wrote: "It seems that the name of the book is gradually acquiring the new meaning: it is the old curiosity shop of all weirdos and unusual people:-)"


I really like this idea as well.

It is a curiosity shop of people. At first I thought it was the usual, good vs. bad, the typical Dickens world.

But now we are seeing all sorts of people: Kit as the innocent, pure person; the humble country folk; the quirky in Mr. Garland and his pony; the differences in the show-business people; even the wealthy - most of the people who can afford Nell's humble bouquet of flowers ignore her, but there is one wealthy woman who takes pity on her; Quilp - completely vulgar, dishonest, horrid man; Quilp's wife, the beaten down woman; the grandfather; and Nell, innocent but at the same time, seeming to now be able to figure out the people around her.

Robin wrote: "I found I have 2 videos of this story, one recently from TV with Derek Jacobi and the other an older version from Hallmark with Peter Ustinov. So I watched the beginnings of both. Neither one comes close to showing the whole world of Dickens, I suppose no film can do that. Neither one makes Quilp an actual dwarf, although he is ugly, nasty and has bad teeth.
"

I've long wanted to incorporate discussions of film/television adaptions with our book discussions, but didn't think that people would like the idea.

But I think it is nice to see the different ways people approach the stories. Every book has numerous ways of looking at the characters and ideas.

I've watched the Derek Jacobi version and really enjoyed it (although admittedly, I can't remember the details because I watched it awhile ago - I'll have to refresh my memory on youtube). He's such a wonderful actor.

Robin wrote: "Another reason this section is livelier is that we see more of Kit. He's an interesting case. Dickens often has good people who are naturally refined and sensitive (Oliver Twist, Kate & Nicholas Nickleby) regardless of surroundings. He has some bad or semi-bad people who are shaped by bad surroundings, like Nancy in Oliver Twist. Kit is not refined, but he is honest, loyal, hardworking and determined. Maybe he would grow up to be another Sam Weller.
"

Ahhhh...Sam Weller. My favorite Dickens character. And speaking of film adaptation, the man who plays Sam Weller in the old BBC version is just wonderful. Exactly what I think Sam Weller is like.

Kit has a ways to go to be a Sam, but he's definitely Sam material. :-)

Zulfiya wrote: "Done with this week's section! As it has been mentioned earlier in this thread, Dickens gives us some insight into the world of show-biz for the poor. This section of the novel seems to be a logica..."

You're right-the pony is a wonderful touch. Dickens does have a touch of slapstick to his work .

I have finally made it through this section, too.

You have mentioned everything more or less already. So here are just a few comments in addition:

I, too, had to think of the curiosities in the world with all the carnival people and tried to draw a connection between the dwarfs there, being waited on by the old giants and Quilp, who is kind of waited on by his wife and makes other people dependent on him and abuse them.
He really seems to be a wicked person, maybe a little of a socio- or psychopath, who loves seeing others suffer and has no empathy at all.

What struck me also as a little uncomfortable is all the "male" interest in Nell. Quilp, Codlin and Short in a rather disgusting way, Swiveller more from a supposed financial aspect and Kit, the only kind and sincere one, from a true devotion.

I also had to think of Sam Weller when Kit got the job with the Garlands, especially as he received some money in advance to enhance his wardrobe. He really seems to have a lot of potential as a character.

And as you have mentioned, the scene with the pony was pure slapstick and also reminded me of the many similar scenes in PP. It is just funny.

Just finished this section and I'm now almost caught up with the group. I too enjoyed this section, particularly the carnival section. I also share most peoples thoughts about the characters at the moment. I am so happy about Kit's fortune but I'm not clear how this fits into the whole book as I am sure him, Nell and her grandfather must eventually all meet again.

I love the atmosphere Dickens creates. In the part where Quilip came in to hear Kit and his mother were talking about his new job, I could almost hear the door banging open and making an audience jump!

Heather wrote: "Just finished this section and I'm now almost caught up with the group. I too enjoyed this section, particularly the carnival section. I also share most peoples thoughts about the characters at the..."

Dickens can be very visual:-)

Heather wrote: "I love the atmosphere Dickens creates. In the part where Quilip came in to hear Kit and his mother were talking about his new job, I could almost hear the door banging open and making an audience jump! "

Dickens is brilliant when it comes to atmosphere. I really feel like I enter 19th century London when I read his books. I don't get that feeling with most novels from another period.

When I visited London in 2004, I was a bit (well, very) disappointed mainly because of Dickens' novels. Obviously, today's London is nothing like Dickens' London, but that's what I wanted, and of course, didn't get it. :-)

Lynnm wrote: "Heather wrote: "I love the atmosphere Dickens creates. In the part where Quilip came in to hear Kit and his mother were talking about his new job, I could almost hear the door banging open and maki..."

I spend a lot of time in London and it certainly isn't the same as described in Dickens anymore! Although I'm not sure that's a bad thing if less romantic then the novels allow us to feel!

Heather wrote: "I spend a lot of time in London and it certainly isn't the same as described in Dickens anymore! Although I'm not sure that's a bad thing if less romantic then the novels allow us to feel! "

True enough!

I know I wouldn't want to see Fagin and Bill wandering the streets of London today. :-)

(Although I wouldn't mind seeing Pickwick or Nicholas Nickleby...and definitely would love to meet up with Sam Weller!).

Sadly I read too much, and prefer the world that my favorite authors have created than the real thing. ;)