Goodreads Librarians Group discussion

I'm reading the book "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Two of the quotes attributed to that book are actually quotes by other authors, which are properly attributed in the text, but not within the quotes on Goodreads.

My question is, should those quotes be combined under the original author, or is it appropriate to expand the Richard Dawkins quotes to include the author who originally said the quote? The argument for expanding the quotes with the attribution is that the quotes can still be tied to the book where they're being re-quoted. I'm leaning towards the later.

Here are the specific cases I've found so far:

“When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/searc...

AND

“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/searc...

Please don't combine the quotes (or make other changes) until a consensus is reached, or a staff member weighs in. Thanks!

What do you mean by expanding the quotes?

Even if Dawkins is using an Adams quote in a suitable/clever way it is still an Adams quote (or a Pirsig quote). I would say that it should be attributed directly to Adams (or to Pirsig) without the Dawkins Connection.

There is also the problem that a quote can only be attributed to one person.

What would the expanded versions look like, and would the people who have "liked" the original versions be happy to have totally different quotes instead?

rivka wrote: "What do you mean by expanding the quotes?"

For Robert M. Pirsig:

I am inclined to follow Robert M. Pirsig, author of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: 'When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion.'

For Douglas Adams, the quote is on the dedication page:

In Memoriam
Douglas Adams
(1952-2001)

'Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?'

***

I can argue both ways. If you just like the quote, then you most likely want the original author. If you are liking a bunch of quotes associated with a book you read, you might be disappointed to see that quote disappear from your review page.

I came across the quotes specifically looking for quotes in that book, so by removing the quotes to the correct author, I loose the opportunity to show this or that author agrees or disagrees with Dawkins' view of things.

A compromise would be to combine the quotes as they currently exist, then re-add the expanded quotes and attribute them to Dawkins.

mlady_rebecca wrote: "I came across the quotes specifically looking for quotes in that book, so by removing the quotes to the correct author, I loose the opportunity to show this or that author agrees or disagrees with Dawkins' view of things."

I don't understand that. With reference to the Douglas Adams quote Adams was not referring to religion or god or anything like that so it is not a question of agreeing or disagreeing with anything Dawkins said.

mlady_rebecca wrote: "A compromise would be to combine the quotes as they currently exist, then re-add the expanded quotes and attribute them to Dawkins."

If by that you mean to merge the Pirsig and Adams attributed quotes with the Dawkins versions and ONLY have the Dawkins attribution then I would say that would be wrong. Plain and simple, wrong.

Banjomike wrote: "If by that you mean to merge the Pirsig and Adams attributed quotes with the Dawkins versions and ONLY have the Dawkins attribution then I would say that would be wrong. Plain and simple, wrong."

No, I said the complete opposite. Merge the quotes to the correct authors, then possibly add a second version for Dawkins which includes additional text clarifying that he was quoting someone else.

I don't understand that. With reference to the Douglas Adams quote Adams was not referring to religion or god or anything like that so it is not a question of agreeing or disagreeing with anything Dawkins said.

I'm not sure how this is relevant to my question, but Dawkins analyzes quotes from a lot of famous figures, giving his interpretation of where they fall on a theist/agnostic/atheist continuum.

And, from what I've read elsewhere, Douglas Adams was a staunch atheist. In that context, the quote can be interpreted as an analogy to his thoughts on religion.

I think there is a lot of over analysis going on here. You hear/read something, it strikes a chord, who want to "like" it. You probably don't want to analyze the possible religious significance it has to someone completely out of the loop (to you), who it is possible/probable you never heard of or at least don't associate with every quote you happen to like.

If a quote is attributed to a person because it was written in a book or whatever written by that person/author, isn't that person the one that should be quoted? (as was mentioned above.)

Or, in this case, why would anyone want to harken back to someone named Dawkins, who may or may not be anyone who the person choosing to "like" the quote has ever heard of?

For me, a "liked" quote is generally liked not only for the words themselves, but for who I identify them with. Not someone who may or may not have originally had that thought, who knows when.

And in this case, I fail to see that analyzing Doug Adams religious beliefs, if any, has anything to do with someone liking a particular quote they associate with him.

Finally, end of rant, I'm no sure how many people really care what Dawkins analysis of other people's quotes and his interpretation of their place on the continuum are. If you do, great; but otherwise, to be rude, who cares?

Cheers.

I think it's pretty clear that the quotations should be attributed to the people who said them and not to Dawkins who quoted them. Period.

Banjomike wrote: "Even if Dawkins is using an Adams quote in a suitable/clever way it is still an Adams quote (or a Pirsig quote). I would say that it should be attributed directly to Adams (or to Pirsig) without the Dawkins Connection."

Kara wrote: "I think it's pretty clear that the quotations should be attributed to the people who said them and not to Dawkins who quoted them. Period."

I agree.

MissJessie wrote: "Or, in this case, why would anyone want to harken back to someone named Dawkins, who may or may not be anyone who the person choosing to "like" the quote has ever heard of? "

22 people "liked" the Douglas Adams quote as incorrectly attributed to Richard Dawkins. And 90 people "liked" Robert M. Pirsig quote as incorrectly attributed to Richard Dawkins.

Some (maybe most) of the people may have just liked the quote itself, but I imagine some people liked the quote in the context of the book. At least the person adding the quote to the database did, given that it was clear in the text that the Dawkins was quoting another author.

I didn't intend to make this discussion about religion, but given the book title, and the nature of the quotes, it's hard to avoid.

I'll combine the quotes, removing the Richard Dawkins association.

Sounds good. I really enjoyed The God Delusion (and HHGTTG), Rebecca. Hope you do too!

Thanks, Kara. I've loved Douglas Adams' writing for years. Just getting into "The God Delusion".

Kara wrote: "Sounds good. I really enjoyed The God Delusion (and HHGTTG), Rebecca. Hope you do too!"

Hear, hear.

Thanks, Banjomike.

Possible feature request for later addition:

Ability to add to a quote additional books in which the quote was cited.

So, for the example above:

Author: Douglas Adams
Book: Hitchhikers'....

Quoted by: Richard Dawkins
Quoted In: The God Delusion

And if such a thing is ever implemented, it will be handy also to have a librarian feature that lets the editor easily switch the current Author to Quoted-by (maybe like the way we can change the order of Authors on the book/edit page), since this is the kind of error I find myself constantly fixing.

I'd say both features are low priority, and the librarian feature lower still, but they would be cool, and could make our quote database more useful & complete than anyone else's.

Confused here

I've added this quote “I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by.” and it is from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Now this quote is attributed to The Salmon of Doubt. Thanks God, author is the same.

http://www.goodreads.com/search?q=I+l...

Adams certainly said it, but I didn't think it was from any of his books.

I have the first four books of "Hitchhiker's Guide" in eBook form. A search for "deadlines" doesn't pull up the quote.

It's not from Hitchhiker's, it's from Salmon of Doubt; I confirmed this before updating & combining it with the duplicate copies that already existed, and can do so again if anyone demands evidence, but a search against Google Books should do it if anyone wants to see for themselves.

Keith wrote: "It's not from Hitchhiker's, it's from Salmon of Doubt; I confirmed this before updating & combining it with the duplicate copies that already existed, and can do so again if anyone demands evidence..."

It is certainly in Salmon, two different versions of it in fact, but it only says that he had said it at some point in the past. There seems to be no attribution in Salmon for the quotations in Salmon. If that makes sense.

"Despite this remarkable workload, he was already building a legendary reputation for not writing. “I love deadlines,” he has said. “I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by.”"

As a lifelong Adams fan I totally believe he said it. But I'm not sure we can say when, probably at some boozy party. And given the way that it is phrased above "he has said" I'm guessing that Adams didn't write the reference in Salmon either.

An earlier reference seems to be "The Pocket Essential Hitchhiker's Guide" aka "A Completely and Utterly Unauthorized Guide to Hitchhiker's Guide" by M.J. Simpson.

I was just cleaning up the Douglas Adams quotes again and found, unsurprisingly, that the "deadlines" quote has once again been duplicated and attached to H2G2 here: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/731870

I went to merge it into the correct quote:
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1398
but I get the following error message:
"Cannot combine quote(s): 1398. One or more of those quotes has been selected as a quote of the day."

Does anyone have permissions to override that? Otherwise, I think not being able to merge into a QotD is, after a sufficient number of days, going to cause major headaches and qualifies as a bug.

And when did QotD start? Where's that even visible? How do they happen?

Keith wrote: ""Cannot combine quote(s): 1398. One or more of those quotes has been selected as a quote of the day."

Does anyone have permissions to override that? Otherwise, I think not being able to merge into a QotD is, after a sufficient number of days, going to cause major headaches and qualifies as a bug.

And when did QotD start? Where's that even visible? How do they happen? "

Staff only. 'Quote of the day' gives total immunity.

This is the QotD version:
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1398-...

I've removed the HHGTTG attribution from the 'other' one.