Heathens, Pagans and Witches discussion

Now maybe this group isn't a suitable place to discuss this but I notice Jaq D. Hawkins is a member of this group (and she has written on the subject), so I might be in the right place...
Chaos magic/magick, whatever you wanna call it...anyone else practice it? Play with it?
Is it magic? Are Richard Wiseman and Phil Hine both talking magic?
Is Arthur C. Clarke right when he says:
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
Is it just psychology with ritual?

Old-Barbarossa wrote:Is Arthur C. Clarke right when he says:
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

I think Arthur C. Clarke was right.

This is from Queen of the Stars, a short story I wrote a while ago.

Almost the only source of blue dye in Europe before 1600 was woad. It was grown as a crop which in its first year produced the leaves. These were picked and then ground into a paste by a horse-driven mill before being made into balls, each of which was the size of a farthing loaf.

Stellar read on. The procedure for producing the blue dye was complex and time-consuming.

Finally, the cloth was wetted and lowered into the dye, and after soaking for some time removed from the vat. As the cloth was lifted out it slowly turned blue as the soluble indigo oxidised in the air. Experienced dyers were performing what must have seemed like magic long before the pH scale had been invented or the chemical processes were understood.

The bold is just emphasis for this post.

Chaos magic/magick, whatever you wanna call it...anyone else practice it? Play with it?

I'm not attracted to it so I don't - it's not me, somehow :)

But everything is interesting, so feel free...

Nell wrote: " I'm not attracted to it so I don't - it's not me, somehow..."

It's a broad church, a vague description...covers a multitude of sins.
It's like an operating system on a computer...
Mainstream religion is windows...
Non-mainstream is apple...
Mainstream atheists use Ubuntu...
Chaonauts compile from source and jump distros when it suits.

From Wikipedia:

"Although there are a few techniques unique to chaos magic (such as some forms of sigil magic), chaos magic is often highly individualistic and borrows liberally from other belief systems, due to chaos magic having a central belief that belief is a tool. Some common sources of inspiration include such diverse areas as science fiction, scientific theories, traditional ceremonial magic, neoshamanism, Eastern philosophy, world religions, and individual experimentation. Despite tremendous individual variation, chaos magicians (sometimes called "chaotes"[1]) often work with chaotic and humorous paradigms, such as the worship of Hundun from Taoism or Eris from Discordianism. Some chaos magicians also use psychedelic drugs in practices such as chemognosticism.[2]

Chaos magicians are often seen by other occultists as dangerous or worrisome revolutionaries.[1]"

I like the last sentence :)

An it harm none... runs very deep with me - I even wrote two novels to come to terms with "...the consequences of the practice of the Art Magick."

So 'play' seems the wrong word - for me at least. I'd describe mine as natural, intuitive, spontaneous, thoughtful and sometimes accidental.

Nell wrote: "So 'play' seems the wrong word - for me at least. I'd describe mine as natural, intuitive, spontaneous, thoughtful and sometimes accidental..."

Some folk are very serious about it and would agree with you.
But as I said it's a broad church.
I'm a Discordian but also an atheist, just easy shorthand...try doing a Venn diagram.
My view is that play and humour are important in all walks of life.
Also, laughter is a great banisher.

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "My view is that play and humour are important in all walks of life.
Also, laughter is a great banisher. "

I tend to agree. Possibly part of the problem with perceptions regarding Chaos Magick are its connection in many minds with 'yon auld beastie', although admittedly he did have a sense of humour, but maybe that's a separate topic.

I wonder if, in a way, the roof of 'a broad church' might be said to shelter too much diversity. What do you think?

Nell wrote: "I wonder if, in a way, the roof of 'a broad church' might be said to shelter too much diversity. What do you think?"

Possibly...but it's really just shorthand in many ways. We all find it easy to pigeon-hole things, so the term chaos magic(k) is an easy catch all. Like the way jazz covers a whole spectrum of music for the outsider.
As mentioned in the wiki quote you posted above though, it is the issue of belief and it's malleability that pretty much all chaonauts share...whether the clownish ones or the deadly serious auto-erotic sex magicians.
Also I think that results are more important in many ways than the method used to get them.

I read through the whole of the long preview of Liber Null & Psychonaut: An Introduction to Chaos Magic last night. Fragmented as it was, it seemed to me that the sentence from wiki quoted above is sharply relevant, as much from the point of view of the magicians' safety as any other concerns traditionalists might have, but then care is needful in any practice.

The last pages of the preview of The Pseudonomicon in which Phil Hine writes about a specific working for healing a friend's throat, seemed to illustrate vividly the danger for both magician/shaman and subject.

Oddly, I heard echoes of A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life's Purpose in the beginning chapter of Liber Null, and a call to 'spread the word' to bring into being a new age of increased potential of humankind.

I like Phil Hine's definition of magic (What is Magic?) in the first pages of Condensed Chaos: An Introduction to Chaos Magic - the question is, does one need more than that?

I know some folk think you have to come to chaos magic through the IOT related texts, and that's fair enough for them. Others stumble into it and realise their practices can almost accidentally be classified as chaos magic.
As to the safety aspect...aye it can be a bit raw, get a bit hairy. But I don't know of anyone that has practiced any form of magic, either from personal experience or from reading, that hasn't occasionally had a wee scare or psychiatric close call...but maybe I just roll with the wrong sort of folk.

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "But I don't know of anyone that has practiced any form of magic, either from personal experience or from reading, that hasn't occasionally had a wee scare or psychiatric close call... ..."

What do you mean by: "from reading"?

Nell wrote: "What do you mean by: "from reading"? "

Books and articles etc...eg: I seem to remember Robert Anton Wilson touching on this.

Thanks, I'll read tonight when I've more time.

I'd forgotten Eris, and was looking for William Butler Yates' poem when I found the text below and thought I'd post it, not only for reference but also to ask you if this thread is a golden apple...

From Wikipedia.

"The contemporary religion Discordianism draws upon the Golden Apple of the goddess Eris, also known as the "Apple of Discord" which was used by this goddess to set off the conflict among the goddesses of Olympus that lead to the Trojan War as a result of Eris not being invited to a party (the so-called "Original Snub"). Emblazoned upon the apple is the word "Kallisti" meaning "to the fairest". The golden apple can be seen as a metaphor for a practical joke meant to cause cognitive dissonance in the target."


The William Butler Yeats poem The Song of the Wandering Aengus, has the lines:

I will find out where she has gone
And kiss her lips and take her hands;
And walk among the dappled grass,
And pluck till time and times are done
The silver apples of the moon,
The golden apples of the sun.

Nell wrote: "also to ask you if this thread is a golden apple..."

Partly...only partly...
;)

As to the Yeats, Christy Moore sets it to music here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-VL41...
Don't think it's Erisian though, WB was more celtic twilight in his orientation.

Just listened - simply beautiful - thanks...

You're welcome.

Smashing.
That and a dose of heroically strong coffee has set me up for the day.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn...

Jaq, have you read any Richard Wiseman or Kenton Knopper?
Not ritual, maybe not magic, but certainly results based.

Jaq wrote: "Somebody invoke my name? ;)..."

All due ritual carried out...
Invoked thrice over a cup of Earl Grey and a scone while listening to the Goon show on vinyl...

Wiseman has a bunch of psychological "tricks" that can change your behaviour and views. He's also a "debunker". I'm sure browsing on goodreads will show you a few of his books. Some are like a sciency version of "Undoing Yourself With Energised Meditation" by Wilson.
Knopper is a bit Derren Brown(ish) in that he "influences" others, stage mentalist/magician but with interesting techniques. Tricky to get his stuff.

Jaq wrote: "Old-Barbarossa wrote: "

All due ritual carried out...
Invoked thrice over a cup of Earl Grey and a scone while listening to the Goon show on vinyl..."

There was cream, right? I always respond to ..."

I forgot...no...arghhh...the walls are shifting...a rugose form...the eldritch horror...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnbYcB...

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "...version of "Undoing Yourself With Energised Meditation" by Wilson..."

UYWEM is by Christopher Hyatt not Bob Wilson...sorry. Might be confusing it with his Prometheus Rising...been an age since I read them.

Jaq wrote: "Magic to me has always been a direct study of cause and effect..."

I agree. It's about results.
Nae point if no result.
Method, to me, is secondary.

Not being dogmatic about the scone thing I can only think that the type of cream would make a difference...though I'm sure the third law of thermodynamics would play a part.

I suppose the second law would be more relevant to runny dairy products...third for the clotted though...

I personally follow this path having been force fed wicca as a child.