The Sword and Laser discussion

Season 2 is missing the mark somewhat for me - I watched Season 1 - read the books then watched Season 1 again and it was just as compelling watching as the first time I watched. I felt the tension as Ned Stark and family head into a political minefield - felt afraid for the Stark family as things heated up - then there was the big OMG moment at the beheading with Arya watching and it was "did they just do that!?."

The TV Show didn't have all the moments and intricate details of the book, and I'd be picking the differences - but thats ok because what it did have was done really well.

But Season 2 has left me shaking my head a little. I know they can't put everything in, but what is being included is lacking the emotional kick that comes through in the book.

For example - Jaqen H'ghar. He's just too pretty, too clean, too nice(as assassins go) and too good. In the book I was worried for Arya - it was like what happens when he's done with the three wishes? Should you really be hanging around that guy - because he did not come across as a very nice man. And in the book, each of the people Jaqen kills you hated - while on screen its - who was he again? Who's the Tickler again?

Last weeks episode was particularly bad - I remember asking a friend who watches the show but hasn't read the books - "Hey, what about those two burnt corpses?"
And he replied "I only saw one crispy bit." And I say (after face palming) "No, there were two - obviously you missed WHO the two hot and spicies were supposed to be."
"No I didn't," he says. "I got they were the two (now I know they're two) boys from the village."
"Yes," I says after face palming again. "But you were supposed to think they were Bran and Ricken!"
"No! Was I? I was wondering why the old fart was so upset."
"And at some point Bran and Ricken are going to pop out and it will be SURPRISE! We are alive!"
"But now you ruined it for me. It won't be a surprise!"
"If you didn't know they were dead in the first place you wouldn't have been surprised to start with. You would have just said 'oh, there they are."

And then I spoke to the same guy about last night's episode and he asks.
"Why didn't the whore just fess up and say ITS NOT ME!"
And I says, "Because if you read the book you would know that the WHORE being dragged in by Cersei's guards in front of Tyrion was his FRONT WOMAN ie The woman he was supposed to be seen to be visiting when he was actually visiting his REAL woman."
"Oh. I totally wouldn't have got that."

Do you think they are trying to put in too many of the poignant moments in the book and it just isn't coming off. Maybe they should just stick to a lot less plot points and do them well?
I still like the show, its just some of the scenes (or a lot actually) is WHY BOTHER trying to stick to the book if you can't do it properly?

Season 2 is feeling a lot more rushed than Season 1.
I'm glad I read the books so I know what's going on.

They need to have longer series (22 - 26 episodes) so they can slow down a bit.

It is still the best show on TV at the moment.

Tassie Dave wrote: "Season 2 is feeling a lot more rushed than Season 1.
I'm glad I read the books so I know what's going on.

They need to have longer series (22 - 26 episodes) so they can slow down a bit.

It is sti..."

Maybe after the success of season 1 they were under the pump. I agree that its asking a bit much to fit everything in 10 episodes. And all the actors should be made to listen to the audio books - then at least Hodor and Jaqen and a few others would know how they are supposed to sound. Cersei comes across as she's supposed to I think - Tyrion's one of my favourites.
I think Tyrion's a hard one to pull off because on screen you are continually confronted with his "dwarfishness" (no offense intended to any dwarfs). It was ok in Season 1 because he was almost like the comic relief - but in the next book his role is a lot more serious and I think in the book its easier to take Tyrion seriously because you are not continually focused on his appearance. He's still my favorite in season 2 though.
All the Starks come off well and in fact the first season influenced how I saw them through all five books.
I'm glad the Stark wolfs have "grown up."
Hodor just sux. I liked Hodor in the books - never had much to say but at least you knew what he was saying.
Daenerys character comes across well even though they've changed the story a bit - had to I suppose because her story arc slowed the pacing down after book 1 - too slow for tv if they stuck to the story.
And then Rob Stark's love story was never actually told in the book? They could have cut a lot of that out and concentrated more on SOME of what actually WAS in the books.

So much of Dany's story happens in interior monologues, I think the changes made are probably for the better. I love her, but she does spend an awful lot of time wandering around the desert talking to herself.

I did have a moment last night when Jorah said "you didn't suckle them" and I shouted YES SHE DID even though in the show, she didn't.

Arya's story, I haven't yet made up my mind about. I was *loving* her interactions with Tywin, but agree that they haven't put her in enough peril. Reading the books, I was worried she would die in just about every chapter.

The Bran/Rickon misdirect was completely botched. I didn't encounter anyone online who thought they'd been killed, and several people who didn't realize they were even looking at dead children at all.

I like that Ros has taken the place of several other minor female characters. Since Shae is living with Tyrion, I don't think he has a cover story at the brothel - in the book, the whole reason for that was the secret exit behind whatshername's door. As for telling Cersei she has the wrong whore, it's not like Cersei would just say "Oh sorry, my bad, be on your way then." She'd just have her killed anyway. Better for Ros to take her chances with Tyrion's good reputation among prostitutes.

Jess wrote: " Since Shae is living with Tyrion, I don't think he has a cover story at the brothel - in the book, the whole reason for that was the secret exit behind whatshername's door."

Which from memory (in the book) he would meet covertly with Varys (AND Shae initially before she moved up) at the whorehouse and Aliyaya was the cover. So it made sense that Aliyaya (in the book) gets pinged.
But as you say, in the show Shae goes pretty much straight to the palace and Varys and Tyrion don't appear to be bothering about being overly covert.
Which raises the question WHY would Cersei link Tyrion and Ros? There's no reason given for that connection at all. It was a poignant moment in the book - particularly since we don't initially know this isn't Shae. But I just don't know why they would bother on the show.

David Sven wrote: "Hodor just sux. I liked Hodor in the books - never had much to say but at least you knew what he was saying.

Rob Stark's love story was never actually told in the book?"

Kristian Nairn always comes across as if he's embarrassed to say "Hodor"
He throws an occasional hodor in but never how I imagine it from the books "HOE-DOOR"

Seeing Robs romance blossom with Jeyne is understandable. As it leads to the biggest climactic scene in Season 3 (The RW) the TV show needs to justify Rob's later decisions.

GRRM gets away with it in the book with a few pages of backstory. That doesn't work as well on TV.

A man sees the show, a man did not read the second book.

A man was not fooled by the burned corpses.

A man thought an imp did a good blank face on seeing the wrong whore. A man did not know the whore was a decoy.

A man thinks Arya should join MI6 as a master spy.

A man thinks breastfeeding dragons is probably too much, even for HBO. A man thinks surely dragons are not even mammals?

@ Tim - A man is amused.

While I agree to some extent, the second book is the least interesting of the series (apart from Feast for Crows perhaps but I've only just started that one) and its really the 3rd book where some serious crazy shit goes down, and I can't wait to see how they do the Weddings, The Brotherhood, etc.

I agree that the season somehow feels like less than the sum of its parts - there are great scenes and great acting but somehow it doesn't all hang together well enough

Episode 8 drove me nuts because they are back doing the ' let's check in on everyone in the cast to see what they're doing' and it just ends up with no momentum

Blackwater should be epic though hopefully the will nail that one and save the season

That is why book 3 Storm of Swords is going to be divided between season 3 and 4

Oscar wrote: "That is why book 3 Storm of Swords is going to be divided between season 3 and 4"

If they continue that they may be able to do the story justice.

Though they are going to run into some problems with Arya & Bran.
Maisie Williams "Arya" is 15 now and would be in her 20's and Isaac Hempstead-Wright is 12 and will be almost a man before the series end.
If he does stay to the end then I all I can suggest is "You're going to need a bigger Hodor" ;-)

The other children like Rickon, Tommen and Myrcella are not on screen enough to be missed if they are recast later on.

My biggest problem with season 2 is the big changes they've made. I don't mind changes as long as the way you see the characters doesn't change. But the changes to Arya and especially Jon's stories worry me. Jon not meeting back up with his brothers and being told to join with the wildings makes it seem like he deserted and isn't still committed to the watch. And Arya being with Tywin is just weird.

I also agree that they made Bran and Rikon's escape very strange in the show, it showed them walking free when they should have been in the crypt early on, but then they seemed to be back in the crypt. I also miss the Reeds, they're pretty essential in the books.

@Shaina - I think in the book they all do leave but backtrack to throw off the trail. I can't remember exactly.
And Arya, yeah in the book she gets promoted to cupbearer to Roose Bolton? And she cons Jaqen into releasing Bolton's men from the dungeon after Tywin leaves - who then take over the castle. And so she isn't escaping Lannisters but Stark Banner men (who she doesn't trust). So it looks like they are cutting all that out. I don't mind that change actually and really they need to make those sorts of changes if they want to compact the story down - but if only they made Jaqen that much grittier a character and made you hate the men he killed for her so that you would be like "Yeah! Eat steel and die!" You get that emotional impact in the book but its not there AT ALL on screen.

They are trying to squash too much into the season while including a lot of the hard hitting moments in the book without including the time investment needed to emulate the emotional weight. Its like they want to have their cake and eat it too. On one hand they are trying to move the story along in ten episodes (and I understand that)but they are still trying to pack in a lot of stuff that was meaningful in the book but which just goes straight over the head of anyone who hasn't read the book and offends those that have.

And Bran and Rikon - They should have cheated and had exact casts of both boys head made and had them impaled on the walls so that there was no doubt in the viewers mind that these were supposed to be the boys. And you would just want to kill Theon even more for doing it. Then revisit the two at the end of the season in the crypt - SURPRISE!!! By then the viewer has forgotten that the heads were EXACT replicas and there is enough doubt in mind about it to be forgiveable. But the last couple of episodes with the Stark boys were just unforgivable in that regard. EPIC FAIL. I still like the show though - it just could so easily be so much better - its just lazy or rushing things too much or something.

Tassie Dave wrote: "I'm glad I read the books so I know what's going on."

I haven't read the books, and I didn't have any trouble figuring what was going on. I'm sure there are details that are lost from the books (there has to be - that's the nature of converting books) but I never felt confused at any point, or felt I needed the book to explain anything.

I think if you have knowledge of the books, the gaps must seem like a terrible loss, and like the plot would be impossible to uncoil given the changes, but honestly, it really doesn't seem that anything is missing when you watch with no knowledge at all.

Actually I have it on dvr but I just don't feel like watching it. I didn't like the book much either and never got to the third book.

Finally we are reminded that there are white walkers out there and "winter is coming" - I like the finish. There's the second snapshot scene of the season.
Dany - mmm. She gets her revenge but I would have preferred her victory at the "house of undying" to have been the dramatic focal point and how much harder would it have been to get Drogon to munch on somebody's heart or something.
Overall an okay episode and the finish promises that season 3 could get more interesting.

Ok I just finished episode 10. Ugh..Dany. I was so looking forward to the House of the Undying. I didn't like how they changed that part around, but thought they'd come back with an awesome conclusion to that scene when she confronts the Magi. In reality it was really underwhelming and they left out all the visions except for that Drogo scene.
I also don't like how they left out the Reeds. I'd say they had too big a part in Bran's story to be left out.

The others were cool though

vent vent vent

I actually only watched until the 6th episode. I no longer have any interest in watching a show since it is no longer actually about the books. They have changed so much it literally isn't the same story, and they have changed it all so early that things that happen later in the series would make absolutely no sense, so clearly those things won't happen either. I don't understand what the point of making a TV series of a book series is if they weren't going to bother making it about the books. And please don't give me any crap about the writers "making it their own." It is already written, it is not their own and they knew that going in. The first season was a PHENOMENAL example of what can be done bringing a huge book to the small screen. It was so amazing. And then they just shit all over it. It no longer has any redeeming qualities as far as I am concerned. Except for Tyrian, maybe...

AnnaBanana wrote: "And then they just shit all over it. It no longer has any redeeming qualities as far as I am concerned. Except for Tyrian, maybe... "

Tyrion was great. Not a big role this episode. Except he's prettier than he was before with that scar.

The more I see Tyrion, the more I like him.

I hate to say this of any scene with Dani in it, but. Meh. How underwhelming.

Not having read the books, can somebody explain to me what happened to Theon? Did his men give him to the Starks and hope to run free? But they didn't seem worried at all. Or was that all a ruse, and there weren't any Starks outside, and the intent was to force Theon to run away (probably concocted by his father)? Another example of very confusing plot in this season. Still like it, and want to keep watching it without reading the books. But not super excited now.

That wasn't explained properly.

In the book, its different. Theon unwittingly releases one of the Stark prisoners - who promises to bring reinforcements for Theon. He does indeed bring reinforcements and lifts the seige - but then subsequently takes over the castle from Theon, kills all his men and keeps Theon as a "pet." Thats the extremely condensed version anyway.

I unfortunately had a brain hemorrhage watching the "white walkers" at the end. I wonder if those seven walkers get royalties for every time their CGI image is cloned. They would make a pretty penny.

But i did finally realize why they are so hell bent on killing everyone and marching south.


Moisturizer.

Colin wrote: "Moisturizer."

Spilled my coffee there!

Haha, me too, Tim.

John wrote: "Not having read the books, can somebody explain to me what happened to Theon? "

I haven't read the books either, but I assumed Theon's men had a flight tactic in mind, and had no intention of fighting, so they dragged Theon away with them, but mostly I figured we'd find out about the truth of his fate next season and were purposefully left to wonder. It didn't bother me.

I think we were meant to assume that Theon's men had accepted Rob's offer which he gives Roose Bolton to convey early in the episode.

"Moisturiser" - Lol - they were definitely having some sort of allergic reaction to their current brand.

I obviously missed the Roosevelt Bolton part, earlier. Thanks for the explanation. I'll have to go back and re-watch it.

I think they started the fire and got away in the confusion probably taking Theon with them

Ruth wrote: "Haha, me too, Tim.

John wrote: "Not having read the books, can somebody explain to me what happened to Theon? "

I haven't read the books either, but I assumed Theon's men had a flight tactic in m..."

Season two was a huge disappointment.

Levi wrote: "Season two was a huge disappointment."

I still liked it . . . but yeah, I expected more. Season 1 was a delight, season 2 not as much so.

Did they change the ending? It seemed different from the book, but maybe I have a bad memory.

They changed a lot of things. Dany's story was very different.
Winterfell gets retaken by Ramsay aka "Reek", leading some of the Dreadfort men. He first rescues Theon by savaging the besiegers and then after Theon lets him inside he kills everyone except Theon who he keeps as a pet and renames "Reek."
I don't think we see the attack of the White Walkers in book 2 at all.
Arya and Jaqen part ways before she leaves Harrenhal. And she engineers her own escape, which involves doing her own killing.

Overall I enjoyed the second season.

I can understand the changes. I just wish they had more episodes to really do the story justice.

At least the 3rd book will have at least 20 episodes.

I'm pretty surprised at how many people enjoyed Season 2. It really felt like a severely abridged audiobook to me, with so much left out. Qhorin Halfhand was one of the more interesting characters in the book and one of the baddest rangers of the Nights Watch, on the show he was just some dude. Like Davos' finger bones, I don't think his story of becoming the Halfhand was ever told. Davos was given short shrift, also. The absence of the Reeds is just ridiculous, especially with the importance their father plays to one of the biggest mysteries of the whole series.

I'm one of those strange people who not only doesn't complain about the length of GRRM's ASOIAF books, I enjoy them. The descriptions of food I can do without, but the detailed character depth and development is one of the main things that makes the series so special to me. Think how much meaningful character development could have been done instead of the endless parade of boobs and bums HBO subjected us to. One of GRRM's strong points is building a character up so much that we really care when something happens to them- a lot. Stuff happens to the TV characters and it's ho-hum because I don't feel very invested in them like I think I should.

Philip wrote: "I'm pretty surprised at how many people enjoyed Season 2. It really felt like a severely abridged audiobook to me, with so much left out. Qhorin Halfhand was one of the more interesting characters ..."

That is exactly how I feel. I love books that are long, I love being invested in the characters. I am not normally a purist when it comes to movie/TV adaptations, but the changes they made just seem unnecessary and silly, and there is so much sex in the books that adding more just makes it seem like the writers are just pandering to some pervy audience instead of caring about the integrity of their work. Very frustrating.