Historical Fictionistas discussion

Christine wrote: "This sounds absolutely bizarre! Does anyone know the reasoning behind it? I've never heard of this! Richard wrote: "Christine wrote: "There are books that don't use quotes?"

Cormac McCarthy does i..."

It seems bizarre to me, too, even though I've encountered several books with no quotation marks.

I get the impression that it's a literary fad. I don't understand the reason behind it. It annoys me no end, because how do you tell the difference between a thought (now traditionally rendered in roman, no quotes, no attribution like "he thought") and something spoken aloud. And if you are going to the trouble of using the over-used em-dash, then why not just use quotes?

Amen to that! Why not just use quotes? I don't need to work twice as hard to figure out which is which, I want to enjoy the story.

I thought it was stylistic thing. At least that was what I was told for The Road...that the formatting was a reflection of the sparce world McCarthy created. I didn't realize his other books were the same way. No punctuation makes my head ache and takes me out of the reading experience.

I also agree with the comments about italics. I read one book that had one of the different perspectives written in italics. I found myself annoyed every time that character's perspective came up.

I feel better about my personal struggle to read Aztec. The book was a gift from a dear friend, and the story interesting, but you know the story, tiny print, tiny margins .

I prefer to read on my kindle. I gave my daughters-in-law kindles for Christmas, hooked up to my account, and so far I have only 200+ titles.

I love being able to adjust font, font size, margins, line spacing, and if I read on white, sepia, or black with white print. I had not realized or contemplated how much format was affecting my reading choices. I'd always preferred paperback to hard back, because of the contrast. Black on bright white tires my eyes.

I'm on my 3rd kindle, because I keep upgrading. I've kept the kindle keyboard and take it when I travel, it is lighter than my fire hd. I love being able to carry a library where ever I go. I still buy books that I cannot get in e-format, and I love to cruise the stacks at book stores. I do miss the physicality of books, but don't miss the weight of carrying around more than 1 book at a time. I have a deep seated fear of not having a book to read.

Renee wrote: "...but don't miss the weight of carrying around more than 1 book at a time. I have a deep seated fear of not having a book to read. "

This, so much. My husband thinks I'm crazy for bringing my Nook with me to the grocery store but I can't tell you the number of times we've made an impromptu stop somewhere that requires us to wait for something.

It is a stylistic thing -- no quotation marks -- and I think you have to experience a book to attempt the reasons. The English student in me is trying to pin down why it suits the Vollmanns. I only sense and trust his judgement is right, but why? What if I had that question set for an essay?

Additional. These are HF, ambitious, I guess not easy (not too difficult either), but if you're interested in the subject...
http://www.goodreads.com/series/50204...

I am going to go with...it depends on the book.

I love physical books, especially anything in the classic range, I have some books that I will probably try to keep forever. However I also love my Kindle, I can take it anywhere and everywhere with me. (Which I do, it is one thing I don't leave without in my purse.)

I also love looking at full bookshelves, I just think its a thing of beauty. After recently having to pack away my bookshelves...well lets just say my room feels lonely sometimes. I have over the years had some copies of books that made me cringe. There was one copy of Robin Hood that was upside down and backwards. Others I have the same problem as the original poster, the font is to small and to close to the margins.

However I have had bad copies of Kindle books as well, they just didn't fit into the device the right way. So, like I said it depends on the book.

Jackie wrote: "I thought it was stylistic thing. At least that was what I was told for The Road...that the formatting was a reflection of the sparce world McCarthy created. I didn't realize his other books were t..."

I'm sure there are others out there that are earlier, but Andersonville by MacKinlay Kantor, which won the Pulitzer, is written without quotations as well. So, this has been around for a while, but it's still hard to read.

Having always been restricted to audio books has been limiting in many ways, but for years I've been able to take many more books on vacation than my sighted friends. My partner's blind too, and we laugh as we cram our MP3 players full of more books than we could read in 3 months getting ready for a week long trip, in which we'll probably read less than we do at home.

I'd be interested to hear anyone's comments on how common it is to find typographical errors in ebooks verses print books. I do all my reading with audio books, cause all though computer generated voices are getting better all the time, they're still not such a nice way to read for leisure. As a blind writer self-publishing, I agonize over the struggle for perfection. Is it an elusive goal for everyone, or just for me?

Christine wrote: "I'd be interested to hear anyone's comments on how common it is to find typographical errors in ebooks verses print books."

That's a hard question to answer, because it varies with type of book. Professionally published print books that are converted to e-book usually do not have any more typographical errors than print versions. Self-published books, print and e-book, often have typographical errors in both versions because no one has proofread them except the authors, and finding errors in one's own work is notoriously difficult. If the authors did hire an editor, proofreader, or typesetter, then the results may be as good as a commercially published book or may vary dramatically between the typeset version and an e-book created on the fly by Kindle or nook.

The largest number of e-book errors tends to show up in public-domain classics, like the ones available at Project Gutenberg, or in books generated long after the print editions appeared. In these cases, the texts have been retyped, often by hand, and not extensively checked or converted from word-processing files that may have included errors that the publisher corrected before publication.

I have the impression that Smashwords Meat Grinder sometimes introduces errors, which is why I don't use it, but others who have can probably speak to that issue.

Ebook errors?
I've had no problem with Smashwords' conversion, nor with Amazon's. It comes out as intended. I think what you need to hire is a formatter. Try your own formatting for ebook, without expertise, you may have a disaster.

Bryn wrote: "Ebook errors?
I've had no problem with Smashwords' conversion, nor with Amazon's. It comes out as intended. I think what you need to hire is a formatter. Try your own formatting for ebook, without..."

I haven't seen a lot of errors, but it has happened more with e books than in paper.

Personally, I seem to notice many more errors in e-books than 'real' books, regardless of whether they have been self-published or professionally published. It never fails to annoy me that publishers seem to take less care over e-boooks.

Although I have to say it's a lot better than it used to be.

I'd agree that ebooks published solely in digital format seem to contain more errors (as opposed to books that also appear in paperback or hardback). Perhaps they simply aren't put through as many editing stages?

And yes, real books any time - things of beauty. Although Kindle is a boon here, where it is impossible to buy books, I still seem to come back with a suitcase of new buys - feel like a kid in a candy store when I reach the first book store on trips home to the UK :)

I think there are a number of sources for e-book errors:

Ebooks are relatively easy to publish, so eager authors will often publish prematurely. You're right, Kate; they are not put through as many editing stages.

Ebooks from earlier books are often scanned in using devices that do not always convert the letters properly.

The different e-book publishers sometimes treat some of the text formatting characters differently from each other. So a file that worked for the Kindle may need to be adapted before it can work for the Nook. And although it may appear fine on an author's personal screen, it may look terrible on either.

Basically, they are not sufficiently proofed.

Kate wrote: "I'd agree that ebooks published solely in digital format seem to contain more errors (as opposed to books that also appear in paperback or hardback). Perhaps they simply aren't put through as many ..."

I agree there are some poorly formatted Kindle books by inexperienced authors, but equally a lot of big publishers seem to put their books straight onto Kindle without checking them. Eg the entire book is double spaced, the text refers to page numbers although the page numbers are not there (and it would take them very little time to hyperlink the references), line breaks in odd places...

Also you see some strangely formatted product descriptions on Amazon by big publishers.

Kate wrote: "Here's an issue that isn't quite formatting, but is something for authors to think about: I've heard lots of readers complain that they don't care for huge paragraphs, i.e. a page with just one or..."
Interesting perspective, Kate. One of my resource books for writing is The First Five Pages by Noah Lukeman. He is quite firm about the look of pages and paragraphs, saying that they have to invite the reader in.

Kate wrote: "Kate wrote: "I'd agree that ebooks published solely in digital format seem to contain more errors (as opposed to books that also appear in paperback or hardback). Perhaps they simply aren't put thr..."

As someone who has regularly struggled with e-book conversion from InDesign (one of the two main typesetting programs), I can say that it is not as easy as one might think. I use a different program for my own novels, which works very well—so long as I don't ask much from it. But the whole thing is a work in progress, still, so it's not a huge surprise that errors occur.

Mary wrote: "Kate wrote: "Here's an issue that isn't quite formatting, but is something for authors to think about: I've heard lots of readers complain that they don't care for huge paragraphs, i.e. a page wit..."
Actually when I started this thread, it was more about things like paragraph length, fonts, margins.......things that turned you off (vs the Ebook vs DTB debate). Of course errors are one of those things. I do like that my new Kindle allows me to change the font :-)

JoLene wrote: "As I was flipping through my library copy of Aztec last night, I realized that this was probably NOT going to be a quick read for me. This copy has small print, narrow margins (you have to physica..."

I agree with you. I have switched to ebooks because I can set the font for easy fast reading that doesn't strain my eyes. I have hundreds of books from the 80's and 90's that I will probably never read now because of the small print. But sometimes when I am tired, I try to turn the page!!

Ironically, it's probably the demographic who are most likely to complain most about using a technological device to read who are most likely to benefit from it. As you get older things like print size, font and contrast become critical to a comfortable reading experience and these are all adjustable with an ebook.

Just come across a quote from our doyen of aphorisms, Stephen Fry. "One technology doesn't replace another, it complements. Books are no more threatened by Kindle than stairs by elevators."

Hilda wrote: "Just come across a quote from our doyen of aphorisms, Stephen Fry. "One technology doesn't replace another, it complements. Books are no more threatened by Kindle than stairs by elevators.""

Nice! Thanks, Hilda. Couldn't have said it better.

Hilda wrote: "Just come across a quote from our doyen of aphorisms, Stephen Fry. "One technology doesn't replace another, it complements. Books are no more threatened by Kindle than stairs by elevators.""

That IS brilliant. I will admit that I'm partial to paper--I feel like I can't really engage in a book if I can't smell and feel it, for some reason. But
one thing I hear as an author is that a lot of readers who wouldn't otherwise be reading much are actually buying more books now. Can't complain with more readers!

I bought my Nook when I had a left shoulder injury and couldn't hold a book open without pain and I could use the Nook one handed. It saved my sanity when I had rotator cuff surgery and I could read when I could do little else. then I discovered the added benefits of changing font size and carrying your library around with you!I highy recommend it to Seniors. I still go to the library and the book store to browse but usually end up with thye ebbok.Now my local library has an ever expanding number of e books so i am saving money too and its paid for itself.

Christine wrote: "I'd be interested to hear anyone's comments on how common it is to find typographical errors in ebooks verses print books. I do all my reading with audio books, cause all though computer generated ..."

I just read The Fencing Masterby Arturo Perez-Reverte. I loved this book and the translation as well. I even gave it 5 stars. But the spelling and punctuation mistakes in the Kindle version really ticked me off because it was expensive (over 7 Euros for a Kindle copy.)This isn't independently published and I feel there is no excuse for it. An indie would get bashed for this.

I've had good luck with hiring a formatter for my documents, it's not something I want to learn and would rather pay someone to do it.

Patricia, I really relate to the ease that e-books provide to those who are injured. And I've discovered that by changing the font I can occasionally dispense with reading glasses - good for the eyes - and it doesn't fall off my treadmill.

Laura, I agree that some publishers are very lax with their conversions. Because of typos, I bashed March by Geraldine Brooks so thoroughly in my Amazon review that Amazon sent me an apology and offered a corrected copy and a commenter, surely a friend of the author's, said I should take down the review because it did not reflect on the work by Brooks. But it was part of the reading experience; I did not get my money's worth.

Victoria_Grossack wrote: "Patricia, I really relate to the ease that e-books provide to those who are injured. And I've discovered that by changing the font I can occasionally dispense with reading glasses - good for the e..."

My first Kindle upload had a bunch of typos in it. But it was really no big deal to correct it and upload the new version (which I did.)

Someone mentioned the italics problem. Victoria, you'd said in one of your classes that they can be irritating to read and I am always careful not to overuse them. I find them to be distracting, too.

But the Kindle is wonderful for making the print bigger. I find I read more, too!

I haven't written a review for The Fencing Master yet but I will and I'll address the amount of typos.

Victoria_Grossack wrote: "Laura, I agree that some publishers are very lax with their conversions. Because of typos, I bashed March by Geraldine Brooks so thoroughly in my Amazon review that Amazon sent me an apology and offered a corrected copy and a commenter, surely a friend of the author's, said I should take down the review because it did not reflect on the work by Brooks. But it was part of the reading experience; I did not get my money's worth."

I'm glad to know that Amazon sent you a corrected copy but, I don't understand why Amazon had a bad copy posted for purchase. If the copy was corrected after you purchased then they should inform purchasers and give the option of downloading a new copy. It's not like it costs them anything to replace.

Good for you on standing your ground on the review. Editting and formatting is part of the writing process and it should be noted if it's not done well. Why would I want to spend my money on a shoddy copy, especially if the ecopy is full price? I rather spend it on an author who has taken the time to get it right.

Jackie, I was absolutely appalled. The book won the Pulitzer prize; the e-book at the time cost significantly more than hard copy version, and the publisher did not bother to have anyone review the electronic copy. I really felt ripped off.

We read it in this group but the typos ruined the reading experience for me.

Another example of bad formatting from a big publisher - The Quarry by Damon Galgut. The Kindle edition has a line between every paragraph, very off-putting especially where you have dialogue.

And it only takes one line of html to put it right! I know because I had this problem with my own book and spent a panic-stricken day before I found the solution on a forum.

Jennifer wrote: "I will admit that I'm partial to paper--I feel like I can't really engage in a book if I can't smell and feel it"

The smell and feel of my latest library book are cigarette smoke and smeared food. I think I prefer the cool impersonality of the Kindle...

Seriously though - I definitely like being able to change the font etc on the Kindle and if the book's good enough I'm not conscious of the format. One thing I've noticed - paragraphs look much longer, which can make them daunting. When I was proofing my book on Kindle I split some paragraphs that looked fine in Word. I guess a paperback would have been somewhere between the two.

I read March as a "real" book and didn't like it, so the format had nothing to do with it.

Kate wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I will admit that I'm partial to paper--I feel like I can't really engage in a book if I can't smell and feel it"

The smell and feel of my latest library book are cigarette smoke ..."

Ha! That's a bummer...I hadn't even thought about the possibility of OTHER people's smells and feels being imprinted on a book (I'm kind of a "spendanista" when it comes to books). But point fairly taken! I also like the confidentiality of ebooks. I'll admit I read "50 Shades"--am I actually admitting this on a HF website?--on my iPhone and felt quite innocuous and safe doing it. How I felt about that particular book itself is, of course, another question altogether....and likely one for a different discussion group!

Kate wrote: "Another example of bad formatting from a big publisher - The Quarry by Damon Galgut. The Kindle edition has a line between every paragraph, very off-putting especially where you have dialogue.

And..."
Wow. As in a line like a physically-drawn line? Or a line of empty space?

Linda wrote: "I read March as a "real" book and didn't like it, so the format had nothing to do with it."

I bet you would have liked it even less if your copy had been full of typos!

Victoria_Grossack wrote: "Linda wrote: "I read March as a "real" book and didn't like it, so the format had nothing to do with it."

I bet you would have liked it even less if your copy had been full of typos!"

Probably!! I have that issue sometimes on my nook but that is rare. Shame on Amazon for putting out a piece of trash.

Linda wrote: "I read March as a "real" book and didn't like it, so the format had nothing to do with it."

I agree with Kate. I love bookstores. I love the smell of a new book and I love feeling the pages.

Jennifer wrote: "Kate wrote: "Another example of bad formatting from a big publisher - The Quarry by Damon Galgut. The Kindle edition has a line between every paragraph, very off-putting especially where you have d..."

Sorry - I meant empty space.

"So if you have dialogue..."

"It looks like this..."

"Which is really off-putting..."

Oh, that is distracting! I instinctively tend to "read" the blank lines as silence, too--so it would read like a very stilted conversation. So strange that it ends up going to "press" like that...

JoLene wrote: "As I was flipping through my library copy of Aztec last night, I realized that this was probably NOT going to be a quick read for me. This copy has small print, narrow margins (you have to physica..."

I think the biggest factor is font choice. You are right, if the font is small and the margins narrow, it makes the book very hard to read and shows a poor design by the publisher, in my opinion. That is another advantage of e-readers, of course. You can adjust font size and to whatever pleases you and margins aren't an issue.

I find it rather hard to get into a book that has very tiny print. A lot of my reading is done before bed while my husband checks emails and messages, and the bedside lamp isn't that bright. I don't like having to squint to read words right in front of me. Usually my vision is fine, but when writing is very small, obviously it affects how I read.

Definitely, the book’s format influences my enjoyment! Reading a hardcover book with wide margins and air between the lines and rough hand-cut pages and a nice round 18th-century-influenced font . . . heaven! Am currently reading an old-school mass-market paperback with such tiny margins that some of the type disappears into the spine . . . hell!

As for ebooks, why is it impossible for them to use word breaks? When they’re near the end of a line and have a long word coming up, they just leave a gap and put the word on the next line. Whaaa—? Takes me right out of the story. Not to mention the ones that are ragged right.

As an author when you go to choose the formatting there are multiple considerations and I would like to know what size is preferred in a paperback. One consideration for the self-published is length as you are charged for the cost of printing per page in brackets. I choose the larger size book because of several factors. I can keep the book under 300 pages, thus increasing my profits since this decreases my print cost while allowing me to have readable size font. It also has the added benefit of making the cover easier to see. As a reader, I prefer holding a larger book. So what size do you prefer?

As I (and my eyes) get older, the small print, tightly spaced formats just don't work well for me. That's why I choose audiobook for longer works.

Don't have an e-reader, though my husband has a kobo and I've used it once.

Interesting points about format preferences, Mary Ellen, especially regarding cover readability. Never thought about that. I like small books so, as a writer, I prefer to use 5x8, the smallest standard size in Create Space. But then, none of my books are real, real long. As a reader, I don't even look at the size of the book when I order. Easy, readable print size should always be a priority, I think.

E-reader or physical book? Prefer the physical book in hardcover. Paperbacks are hard to stay open on a table. E-readers? Can't leave them in public, if I'm called away. I will leave a book and take my chances. Never has been a problem to date. However, e-readers are slim and can be tucked away easily in my purse/backpack. Prefer smaller books to larger ones as the large ones can be unwieldy and heavy to hold.