The Nexus discussion

Michel Prince asks: Are Indie publishers the new slush pile?

"So when we look at books like The Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy you have to wonder how many no’s the so called experts gave E.L James. Fifty Shades isn’t your typical romance, but then again typical isn’t what’s exploding on the scene. Who would have ever thought a book about killing children in order to earn food for you town would be a best seller? But Hunger Games is."

She also wrote:

"You’d think after the success of Harry Potter and Twilight, two books that practically created a new way of looking at their genre you need to ask why anything that isn’t mainstream is immediately dismissed. Yet it still is. You’re told as a writer to be original, but then given generic ways of submitting because agents and publishers don’t want to take a chance on new writers."

My question for us readers is:
Would you hesitate to read a "different/unique" book because it is self published?

My question for the authors is:
Is it harder to be indie and different?

As a reader, I wouldn't know if an author was indie or not. It simply isn't something I would look into.

As an indie author, I just go with whatever idea is in my head. So far, I haven't specifically set out to write something different or original.

Every day, people are downloading and buying indie apps and games for their smartphones without really realising it.

As a reader, I do know in most instances who is indie or self published. just look at the publisher or author websites, there are little ways to tell. Its definitely not a bad thing, I enjoy many awesome indie books. In fact I like them more than mainstream. I think as an author I do try to make an impression and write what I would want to read and what is different. I believe Indies are the new slush pile. Who better to pick than a writer with a following already that was hard earned? They (the big six) got a built in audience:s opinion already and know what books are different just by that and popular.

I agree with Michael as a reader, I wouldn't look into whether or not they were indie or self published and even if I did I don't see how it would really influence me to read or enjoy the book any more or any less.

As an indie author(which I think I qualify as being), I like it because as of right now I am not by any means mainstream but rather flying under the radar which some people do appreciate, is it harder? yes and no but I don't see it being any easier then being a regular author.

I think indie books are turning into a slush pile for agents and publishers. Every so often, I hear of an indie author acquiring an agent or publishing contract.

I don't think indie books are a slush pile for readers though. Readers read, and the more books at their disposal, the better.

As for my reading, I don't necessarily hesitate over reading a book because it's self-published. I just tend to be more selective about the books offered to me these days. I read for enjoyment and try to only put books on my to read pile if I think it'll be fun for me.

Since the offers I typically receive to read a book is from indie authors, those are the books I tend to turn down. :) I receive a few request from small presses, and I often turn those down as well. If some of the big six started offering me their books, I imagine I'd be saying no to them also.

Time is sparse and as such, I can't get to everything offered... nor do I want to.

As far as it being harder to be indie and different, I don't know. I've only self-published. I did spend about 9 months querying, and they were the toughest months of my entire writing career. I never want to go through that again.

Would I love for a big name publisher to offer me a contract? Oh hell ya! :) I think it would be a wonderful opportunity. On the other hand, I question is traditional publishing is in the best interest of most authors when it comes to the long term.

From what I'm seeing, most traditional authors don't fair much better than the mid-list indie authors. In fact, the traditional authors who come to the indie side seem to do far better than their counter parts who stick to traditional publishing.

These days, it seems like traditional publishing is a spring board to gaining a fandom before hitting the indie road.

I've also seen a trend for those who start indie and then go traditional to keep one foot in the indie door. Amanda Hocking and Joe Konrath are excellent examples.

Once you're known to readers, the indie business is too lucrative to put all your eggs in the traditional basket.

Well, I've had more than a few friends have their manuscripts rejected because the agent told them, "Look, just don't know how to market this."

On a practical level that's true. Certain tropes, genre expectations, et cetera act as useful heuristic short-cuts for people.

I mean people have certain expectations attached to certain descriptions and the more you mess with that, the more you risk irritation from readers who aren't getting what they thought they were getting.

So, it's not hard to be indie and different. It's just hard to be different. People rely on short-cuts and filters to get through the piles of books available (and this was an issue long before the recent rise in more titles).

Publishers aren't all that great at knowing what audiences want to begin with, so it's a bit much to expect them to be able to figure out what great out-there idea will break through. On a practical business level, playing it a bit more safe at least gives them more a fighting chance.

The basic reality is that for every unusual idea that succeeds there are piles and piles that fail.

I have no particular belief that just because something is trad published that it's going to be good. To that end, I wouldn't place particular stock in indie or trad, but rather I'd look at the reviews, check out the sample, et cetera.

One particularly good thing, though, about the expansion of self-publishing is that maybe it actually is "easier" in a sense that if someone has an out there idea they can publish and get an audience and potentially later transition into a publisher deal (if that's what they want).

The "different" projects are at least allowed to get out there and potentially reach readers, whereas before they may have not even been able to get a small number of readers.

I've seen this a lot with historical fiction. Trad publishing tends to focus heavily on certain particular periods and countries. So, it's been nice to read good HF from a more diverse range of areas.

Would you hesitate to read a "different/unique" book because it is self published?

I have to admit, a few years ago I probably would have. I didn't know how wide the indie and self-published market was. I just thought self-published meant couldn't get traditionally published. I hate to admit that because I know soooo much better now, but I would imagine there is still a large contingency that is still in that boat.

Is it harder to be indie and different?

I think this is a tricky question. I think it is a lot easier to be different if you are an indie. There are very few mold breakers out there and even fewer get picked up by the big 6. But I also think the question means to ask if the experience of being different and an indie is harder than being different and traditionally published. I would say 'yes' for all of the reasons people say being an indie is harder. Being traditionally published provides a modicum of legitimacy that indies lack by virtue of being indie (see above comment). Though I acknowledge that many traditionally published authors, different or not, had to struggle to get there too. I also acknowledge that indie publishing is quickly changing this. Just as indie movies and indie music have carved out their own niche, so is indie literature.

Great questions Midu!

I'm both a traditionally published and an indie author. My own experience is that it's hard to get anything published right now, period, because the industry is in such flux. But it's harder still to get a "unique" story published.

No sour grapes here. I've been super fortunate to have stumbled onto Goodreads and found a terrific readership for my YA urban fantasy, Pandora's Key. I think Goodreads readers are very open to indie authors and giving our books a try - even if they're "different." And if those readers like the story, they're generous enough to take the time to write a review and share their thoughts. For an indie author, this is really an incredible gift.

It really would be such a shame, and boring, if we all just read the books that an agent, editor, or publisher decided was going to sell oodles of copies and make money for a traditional house. I mean, we all have different tastes, right?

I've read some GREAT indie books since joining Goodreads and I'm super thankful that there are authors out there willing to do the work, dream up something unique, take the chance, spend the money, and believe in themselves enough to publish their own books!!

Nancy Richardson Fischer

Oh and I forgot to answer the 'is it harder to be indie and different' part. YES it is harder to be indie, I do ALL the marketing myself. I don't have a budget period, it takes a lot of time and little payback. It would be nice to have a huge company backing me, but I know I would still be doing a lot of marketing myself anyways. I enjoy being indie, the freedom to make my own covers, put out my books when I want to are awesome. I think indie authors are definitely more connected to their fans too.

It doesn't matter to me. I have such a passion for reading that I will give anything a shot.

As an Indie author myself, I think we are slowly becoming less "different" and more just a fact of publishing. Not only that, but there are tons of authors, all who have been published by big publishers for years, who are considering going or are going the Indie route.

It's not hard to see why. Unless you have a hit like Fifty Shades, they are never consulted about the marketing plan for their books by their publisher. Or worse, they are never even offered any marketing plan at all. And from my standpoint, that pretty much means that they are Indie. They are doing the same amount of work we are, except that they now no longer OWN THEIR WORK. In fact, many of those authors also said that they were considering moving to Indie after the rights to their work became available to them.

And I really don't sweat the money either, to be honest. The typical advance an author earns from their publisher these days is $5,000 or less. Not much, especially if they AREN'T backing your book. Which they aren't.

That's the life of someone who works with a publisher and is not the author of Fifty Shades. The only writers getting sufficient help are the one or two authors of big sellers like that. It's not that publishers don't want to back their authors, they simply don't have the resources. So I really don't feel like I'm missing much, if anything.

I have had some instances where I have felt judged for being Indie. But there have been very few. For the most part, I have been glad to be so close to my readers without having a huge company sandwiched between us. I think the hardest thing about being any writer is getting readers to notice your book. And I agree with J.A. that it is especially the case if your book is "different" than typical main stream. But, Indie publishing made it possible to get my book out there and the readers who are looking for something different have enjoyed it. After all, that's really what it's all about!

"Is it harder to be indie and different?"

Perhaps harder in the sense of the commitment of time and resources to promote and market yourself and your product, without the assistance, guidance and/or budget of a trad publisher (whatever that's really worth.) For an indie author, any lack of business background knowledge or experience can make for a long and bumpy learning curve to get a book noticed, much less read. And all of this, of course, takes precious time away from our real desire - to write.

Different - I'd have to say yes, though I am personally thrilled that it is. I remember an old commercial slogan (sing along with me) that went: "Same, Same, Same, Same, different, different, different." (Don't worry if you don't remember, the point was that same is boring and predictable, different was new and exciting, with tons of potential.) Having the freedom to choose subject matter, character personalities, and even having the ability (and self-permission) to wander across genres as an indie is extremely rewarding.

Jaye Frances

I don't pay attention to whether or not a book is from an Indie author or not. I have found after reading an enjoyable story that if it is unique and attracts my attention it is in fact written by an Indie author. So I guess that I prefer Indie authors without searching for them. I don't like the formula books, too unoriginal.

As an Indie author I do notice whether a book has been self published or not. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to read an Indie book because it was unique/different - that is something to celebrate! Many books are turned down by mainstream publishers because they do not fall into a specific 'slot' for marketing.

All indies have the problem of making their book 'visible' so maybe for us 'different' is an advantage. For me, I have to write what I write 'the book inside me' - if I was to to write just what I thought might sell I know the quality of the writing would suffer. My writing is different in that it is exactly what I envisaged and hasn't been modified to help it sell.

As an avid reader and blogger I read both Indie authors and authors from big publishing houses. It is probably split about 50-50. I enjoy Indie authors because they ARE different. However and this is based solely on my experience I can usually tell the difference between an Indie author and a mainstream author and it is not because of the quality of the writing it is because of the lack of a good copy editor.

There are perks to being with a big publisher, and again this is based on my experience as a reader, and a good editor and the other resources that a publishing house can make available to writer are huge advantages. You are not left doing absolutely everything on your own.

I do think it is easier now than it has ever been to be an Indie author. If you can't get a deal with a big publishing house you have resources now like Smashwords, Amazon and communities like GR to get your work noticed. 20 years ago none of this was possible. Yes it is still extremely hard work but at least it is possible.

Again not being an author I may be wrong here but I think there would be some advantages to being Indie and that would be control over your own work. You can control your publishing schedule, your material and to whom your book is marketed.

Laurie: Urban Fantasy wrote: "As an avid reader and blogger I read both Indie authors and authors from big publishing houses. It is probably split about 50-50. I enjoy Indie authors because they ARE different. However and th..."
So good to see you say that!

I am independently published And self published. I love it.

I do not in the slightest base what I read on the publisher or lack of. The first thing that gets me is the cover and name( I know shallow) if I find these intriguing I then read the blurb and ratings if these work for me I will read it. I have later found that honestly it doesn't matter how it's published a enjoyable story is found on both platforms (or unenjoyable) . I will agree with the blogger above and say at times the big 6 has better editing.

As a reader i defiantly do not hesitate to read an indie if not actually I get more excited about indie authors & hardly ever read published books because of the fact there usually unoriginal or just awful there are expections for both sides but all up i rather read something different & that's what I usually find with self publishing, but if you asked me maybe a year ago the story would be different(quite the opposite actually).
I think Tastes are changening & people are becoming more open minded.

As a reader, it doesn't matter to me about where the author is from or self published or a big publishing house. If the story looks good I'm going to read.

I actually prefer indie authors. I love them all. As a book reviewer and an indie author myself, I get to check out my fellow indie author's books, mostly self-published, and I am constantly amazed on the amount of creativity and talent they have. I really believe that we are the future. Mainstream is good but it's kinda bland for my taste now. i want to be constantly challenged. I want writers who dare to be different!

As a reader, I love stories that are different or, are a fresh take on what might otherwise be a standard theme. As an independent author, I have found it very difficult in having taken that risk. I was interested in conjuring a creature of invention, stirring the cauldron of mythology and mystery in order to find a unique landscape of story and character. Taking a concept out of familiar core themes is not easy in the arts overall, but for the independent artist (in this case, the writer), perhaps even more uncertain.

This is a great topic and an important one, I think. It's a good round-table discussion.

Midu wrote: "Michel Prince asks: Are Indie publishers the new slush pile?

"So when we look at books like The Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy you have to wonder how many no’s the so called experts gave E.L James. ..."

I am a reader and I have a blog where I review books. While I received my first E reader several years ago, I have only really discovered indie authors about a year ago.

There are good authors and bad authors in both mainstream and indie, but definitely more variety in indie.

I love different and I really, really like the non generic story lines that I read in indie books.

So different is good.

My only issue with self published books are editing issues. And yes I am sure I have made several mistakes in my short answer here but when I am trying to read a book (indie or mainstream) if the character is a tall buxom idiot in one sentence, 3 sentences later she shouldn't be a short plumb Einstein. But I have found the same kind of mistakes in mainstream published books as well.

So self-published is okay too.

Susan wrote: "Midu wrote: "Michel Prince asks: Are Indie publishers the new slush pile?

"So when we look at books like The Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy you have to wonder how many no’s the so called experts gav..."

Midu wrote: "Michel Prince asks: Are Indie publishers the new slush pile?
G
"So when we look at books like The Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy you have to wonder how many no’s the so called experts gave E.L James. ..."

I would not hesitate to read something different, that is how I stumble on to the m/m genre. We have to remember that many people are not comfortable out of their environment and change, risk is hard for many people much less readers. I believe he received many no' s due to the fear of offending "main stream population" I am glad the yes came because we are not all the same so why should our books be that way.

I think indie authors offer a variety that you just don't get with traditional publishers. That's not just in ideas and genre, either. Story length is another factor. There are many great short stories, novellas, short novels and epic novels out there to read, written by indie authors. Because of their length (either too short or too long) traditional publishers will never publish them. So, if it wasn't for indie authors these great stories would never be out there to be read and enjoyed.

I've read a lot of great indie books and have learned that indie or not great reads are out there. I would not limit myself in fact I read much less big 6 because of all the great indies.

It is very easy to be indie and different. To be indie, different and successful (or popular) is tricky!

Correct me if I'm wrong:
As of today, the market has never had so many authors writing within so few genres or themes. Writing is about being creative, it's not about appealing to the masses or rehashing the umpteenth vampire love triangle.

It is to everyone's benefit if we all rebel against 'what is hot' and actually write something that is refreshing and new.

Strange that we have seen innovations in the ways books can be published and read and yet when it comes to the publishing industry the innovation stops.

I have pitched my novel to all the major players and have been told countless times that they wouldn't know how to market it or where it would fit in the market.

The safety-first industry has stagnated to the point of irrelevance now, so the only route was to publish myself.

The industry is responsible for the ocean of mainstream rubbish which is saturating the market (has anyone seen just how many by-the-numbers fantasy / vampire novels are out there?). The industry can help itself by stopping the perpetuation of the myth that 'more of the same' is a recipe for success.

Me? I march to the beat of my own drum. You read my work on my terms. I don't write 'for' anyone, I don't follow common wisdom or 'what publishers want to see'. It's not my attempt to try and be 'cool', it's simply a case of I write for my own enjoyment, if someone else enjoys it too or the industry wants to pull its head out of its arse then all the better. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it though.

M. wrote: "Strange that we have seen innovations in the ways books can be published and read and yet when it comes to the publishing industry the innovation stops.

I have pitched my novel to all the major p..."

I as a reader am so happy that self publishing has become more available. It gives me a chance to read so many new authors, with terrific imaginations that are not forced into making their stories a by-the-numbers novel.

As an indie author, I chose this method purely for the freedom to be a little different. I didn't even pursue traditional publishing (it's great that the industry has reached the point where you have that choice).

My current book is a good example. It's about vampires and werewolves declaring war on humanity, but it's not really a horror book. It's got more adventure and humor than horror. There's no excessive gore and the language is probably PG-13. That means it might not be very appealing to hard-core horror fans.

Pitching that to a traditional publisher would be almost impossible because it doesn't fit cleanly into a genre (I call it "quirky horror"). A traditional publisher would consider it too difficult to market my book. Do you market it to horror fans? Adventure fans? Comedy fans? In which bookstore section does it belong?

Being an indie author gave me the opportunity to write that series and find my audience. So far, the response has been wonderful.

I have nothing against traditional publishing, but I think the indie market is great for authors who are convinced there's an audience for books that don't really fit into the traditional categories.

While I can't speak to being indie and different, as I'm with a small traditional publisher, I can speak to the being different aspect, as it's something I've pretty much dealt with all of my life, and it sort of migrated over into my writing. What I can say, though, is that being different at anything is tough, and if you want to survive and then ultimately thrive, you need to develop porcupine quills on your skin.

When I submitted my debut MANfiction novel to agents and publishers, I was dinged for anything you could possibly imagine. First, at about 62,000 words, it didn't fit the length requirements for most large traditional publishers. Second, it was in a genre that Stephen King has aptly called MANfiction. Third, I literally came up with one of the strongest male leads I could possibly envision, and I didn't worry about his character likeability quotient. So agents and publishers couldn't send out the rejection slips fast enough, but I kept trying. It took years and a couple more drafts before I actually found a publisher crazy enough to say yes.

Even now that I have my debut novel published, and a publisher who believes in my talent as well as the character, we faced a new challenge upon release: the readers. If you look at my reviews on Amazon and here on Goodreads (and believe me you'll find more than a few), you won't find any real qualms about my writing skills. But you'll find plenty of opinions about my main character Casey Holden. The bottom line: readers either love him or hate him. And to say they're passionate in their reviews might be a bit of an understatement.

So why on earth would I continue down this path, and why on earth would I publish this as my first novel? Because I love writing, I love MANfiction, I discovered I actually enjoy and am reasonably good at marketing, and I've never backed down from a challenge, no matter how steep the uphill battle. In fact, you might even say I'm crazy enough to use negativity and slights, perceived or otherwise, as fuel to help me reach ever higher levels of success.

For if you have sheer will, a willingness to improve, and a strong work ethic, and you can find motivation either inside or outside yourself, I believe you will find success as a writer, no matter how high the odds are stacked against you.