The Sword and Laser discussion

I can't help but relate the characters (especially Holden and the crew) to Joss Whedon's Tv series Firefly, and the crew on Serenity. It especially wasn't helped by later events in the book and it's sequel (no spoilers).

Anyone else think this, or am I alone in the 'verse?

I don't know as I haven't read it yet, but you just put it on my to be read list.

Oh, I'd cast Gina Torres as Naomi almost as soon as she appeared! Amos is almost crying out to be Adam Baldwin and Alex has some similarities with Wash, though not physically. I think the fact the Roci is a fairly small ship lends itself to comparison with Serenity; it's easy to visualise eg the galley, medlab and so on in the same way.

I don't think Mal would have been so quick to release information, though. He thought long and hard about dishing the dirt on Miranda, whereas Holden gave up everything he had immediately and damn the consequences.

Different 'verses, though...for Mal the war was already over and the Browncoats well defeated, with no external threats and very terraformed habitats that didn't require air and water shipping in. The world of Leviathan Wakes is a precarious powder keg waiting to go up with the addition of a very very scary alien...thing.


The differences in language fascinated me, too - after Firefly I do rather expect future humans to speak a mixture of English and Chinese; I was very surprised at the mashup of English/Spanish/German in LW's Belter language as I tend to think that Eurocentric languages will die off in the future, given the small number of speakers relative to eg Chinese, Hindi etc.

The environment and living conditions described in the book have given me a very Joss's Verse vibe married with a subtle hint of Ridley's Blade Runner.

I don't picture the cast but the world in my mind is a fanciful place where the two environments combine.

I defiantly agree with Caroline. When I started reading this I could see the members of firefly in my head. I thought I might be alone with that feeling so I am glad I am not the only one. To me Holden was Mal, especially at the beginning. Wash has to be Alex and Amos is Jayne. For me though I thought Ade was Zöe and so that left Naomi as Kaylee. Thinking back Zöe would of been better choice for Naomi.

Really enjoying this book so far and I will be reading the next to in the trilogy. 54% of the way though and I am looking forward to the ending

What about Miller?


I cast him as Columbo. Slightly embarrassing...

I totally found myself thinking of Firefly when I read this too! I am glad to see i am not crazy for feeling it. Its not that I felt this was a rip off of firefly, but they were on the same vibe I guess.

I must be the odd one. I didn't think of Firefly at all while reading this.

A lot more focus on asteroids in this. Also the way they talk about using them as superweapons really makes this a more brutal universe than firefly. The fact that Earth and Mars can simply blow away the belters and the belters can hurl asteroids at the domes of mars and bigger ones to to destroy earth I am kinda seeing a bit of a cold war throw back. Rock instead of Nukes but the same cotastrophic out come.

To me firefly was a bit more elegant and probably a lot further in the future of things since they are in a whole new solar system but still talk of Earth that was.

The OP was talking specifically about the characters, and relating the crew of the Roci to the crew of the Serenity. Not talking about the entire 'verse or storyline(s).

I definitely see very strong parallels there. If anyone here is familiar with the anime Cowboy Bebop, it parallels that too, to a degree: small crew in a small ship against the universe.

Actually, I think it's that whole "ragtag team of space cowboys on the lawless frontier" thing that makes them all similar. Even Miller, with his very gray sense of morality, fits in well into that type of narrative.

The Incomparable podcast mentioned the similarities to Firefly in it's review: http://5by5.tv/incomparable/96 (The podcast contains spoilers, not only for Leviathan Wakes.)
I like Firefly and I see the similarities, but IMO they just make the book look like unoriginal fanfiction.

I definitely picture Zoe when I read Naomi, for sure. Holden's not quite Mal, though the Amos/Jayne comparison is suitable, IMO.

At first, Miller reminded me a lot of an older, past his prime Garrus from Mass Effect. The whole grizzled cop working security on a huge space station that's barely in control with all the gangs/merc groups (plus the fact that Belters are tall and skinny) made me keep picturing Garrus.

I don't see the Zoe/Naomi connection. Maybe (view spoiler)[ Naomi repeatedly turning down the option to carry a fire arm (hide spoiler)] is making me think Zoe is a bit tougher or more battle hardened.

Although I do think Gina Torres could play Naomi well.

David wrote: "Although I do think Gina Torres could play Naomi well."

It's Gina rather than Zoe that I connected to Naomi - you remember she was also in Angel; no guns there (although I suppose having Phenomenal Cosmic Powers makes that a bit redundant).

Kim wrote: "I must be the odd one. I didn't think of Firefly at all while reading this."

You're not the only one. The only similarity I see is you have a small group of people on a ship. I see no similarities between characters.

No similarity at all. Whedon knows how to write and has something to say beyond trivial.

The Corey pseudonym is like mass productiob by contrast.

Didn't really get the "firefly" vibe from the book myself. I definitely could see a smattering of influences of scifi movies and books. Belter slang reminded me of the "Cityspeak" of Blade Runner. The outer belt rebelling against the inner planets is a type of conflict that is fairly common in space scifi. Its very reminiscent of the American colonial conflict in that you have a base of power that is so physically far removed from their colonies ( even communications takes a long time ) that it can no longer effectively manage or represent a interest that is very different from its own.

As far as who I'm imagining for different characters. The one that has stuck with me is Paul Blackthorne (actor who played Harry Dresden in the Dresden files tv series ) as Miller since in Dresden Files he played a similar coppish/noir type character.

EDIT: OK, did some watching of behind the scenes interviews for Dresden files TV series and my mind is a little blown since the actor playing Harry is British and the actor playing Bob isn't.
http://www.syfy.com/videos/Dresden%20...

Any story with a ship and a small crew is easy to compare with Firefly, as much as I love the show most of the main characters were really the default Sci Fi crew.
It’s been done countless times before Firefly and I’m sure it will continue to be done for a long time after.

There was a short lived TV series right before Firefly called StarHunter that had so many similarities to Firefly. More than any other show or book that I have seen.

I know no one is saying it’s a bad thing the book reminds them of Firefly, I just imagine it would be quite difficult to have that sort of story and not draw similarities to Firefly or Andromeda.

I agree patterns can be found of similarities - it's what hunans do. However, Whedon's distinctive voice does come through - what it is to be on the losing side of an alliance of superpowers. Mal is not the jolly Kirk the jerk. [Whedon's "Doll House" was even better for a little while.]

A quote from wiki:
One of the struggles that Whedon had with Fox was the tone of the show, especially with the main character Malcolm Reynolds. Fox pressured Whedon to make Mal more "jolly", as they feared he was too dark in the original pilot, epitomized by the moment he suggests he might "space" Simon and River, throwing them out of the airlock to die. In addition, Fox was not happy that the show involved the "nobodies" who "get squished by policy" instead of the actual policy makers.

Book and River were the interesting bits - not fully developed as the series was chopped.

Any story with a ship and a small crew is easy to compare with Firefly, as much as I love the show most of the main characters were really the default Sci Fi crew.

I think this is it. I did get a Zoe vibe off of Naomi, but more because they're both variations on the same stock character than anything specific.

For what it's worth, I think there's ample evidence that the authors had Firefly's rough-and-tumble 'verse in mind at some points in the composition. Shortly after they secure their new vessel, one of Holden's crew remark that she is a most "cunning" little ship...a perhaps subconscious but unmistakable echo of Whedon's faux-Western dialog.

I think I heard it called belter Creol at one point I went with the audiobook on this one and that definatly seemed to fit especially when miller is bunked up with the opa kid.

It's not really surprising to be influenced by Firefly though, is it? Much of the rest of modern (TV, anyway) sci-fi has a larger cast because of the size of the setting. For example, many of the Star Trek ships are enormous and stories frequently involve other ships or planets; DS9 and B5 is set on a space station with lots of coming and going. Plus they're set much further into the future in much wider universes.

Both Firefly and LW are concerned with the interactions of less than ten people on board who are really very close to 21st C humans, with no other races involved. Farscape might be indicated for the small group as well, I suppose, but the presence of several very diverse aliens gives that a whole different feel.

I came here to post just such a post as the OP. I was even mentioning the similarities to my son, who is a Firefly fan as well.

Yes, the connections are superficial, but seem very obvious. A captain with a military history trying to be a conscientious leader, an savvy tech-engineer girl, a hulking lug ready to fight, the pilot.

And I agree with the commenter above that the Miller plot resembles Bladerunner in atmosphere.

I would say all the grittiness of Leviathan Wakes comes from watching television.

I see less Firefly and more Cowboy Bebop as Kam mentioned. Miller's story as a more fatalist version of Jet. Character to character Firefly would be a better comparison while the 'verse is more Bebop.

I got a sort of Firefly vibe from this, in so much as it's not a shiny, happy future 'verse like say Star Trek. But that's as far as it went for me - I didn't really draw similarities between the charaters, except perhaps Miller and Mal (Especially Mal towards the end of Serenity - movie, not the pilot) but even then the comparison is tenuous at best.

If I were to compare Holden to anyone from Firefly, it'd probably be Simon. He's an idealist who doesn't seem to think through the consequences of his actions.

I'm a huge Firefly fan and I never really thought of it the whole time reading both books. Really that's because LW takes so much from other novels. You got the 'strength through being higher in gravity well' and complex family setups from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. I agree with others that it has the grittiness of Bladerunner and cyperpunk generally. It has the belter vs earther of Protector. I rather liked LW since it sort of built on this entire 'mythology' that has been built the last 30-60 years regarding near-future spaceflight and so it was able to get straight to the plot with little need to spell things out to the reader.

The unique part of Firefly isn't a spaceship with a small crew! Even the characters of Firefly aren't all that special, they're just really well done. The unique part is the mashup of Westerns and space, with all the low-tech worlds Firefly normally went to. Life on the belt is gritty however it is anything *but* low-tech. (view spoiler)[Caliban's War goes into that explicitly, on the very complex economy it takes to run the belt. It ain't exactly cows in spaceships! :) (hide spoiler)] (not really a CW spoiler, only tagged for people like me who hate reading anything about a book they plan on reading, even the back covers. :P )

You want a book with similarities to Firefly? Read Alexander Outland: Space Pirate by G. J. Koch. That was a FUN book.

Oh heck yes.
(view spoiler)[
There's a scene, right after they wind up with their "liberated" ship, where Holden rolls around and checks out everything, picks out a cabin, caresses the walls, etc. He even describes the ship as a "cunning little boat."

So yes, I couldn't keep Mal out of my head for this guy, it was impossible.

Not to mention the ship shaped like an office building, described as such.
(hide spoiler)]
The story line isn't necessarily on par, but the tone and feel of the story? Very Firefly.

I can see where some people would see some similarities to Firefly. It was a genre defining show despite it's short TV life.

For me the biggest part that reminded me of Firefly was the description of the Mars Capital Ship. It reminded me completely of the Alliance capital ships from the show.

I agree. Before they even got their new ship I was thinking Freely based on the capital ship description as well.

Once I was in the right 'verse it was that much easier to relate the crew to that if the Serenity. And for the record I saw Naomi as a taller, darker Kaylee.

Hmm, I love me some Firefly, but the noir/mystery-story-set-in-space vibe of Leviathan Wakes kept me from drawing any strong comparisons between the characters. I can see see some of the comparisons people are drawing, but...

As others have said, those kind of characters in a small crew are kind of stock for sf. Firefly's combination of great writing and acting (and the mighty hand of Joss) made those characters come alive, not anything so unique in the basic character descriptions.

The main characters in Leviathan aren't super-deep, but they are shaded enough that they feel like their own characters instead of Firefly analogs: Miller is the end-of-his-tether noir detective trying to do one last right thing before bottoming out, Holden is an interesting mix of some command skill with some extraordinary dangerous naivete. Both of those positions are significantly different from any of the Firefly characters.

Jonathon wrote: "If I were to compare Holden to anyone from Firefly, it'd probably be Simon. He's an idealist who doesn't seem to think through the consequences of his actions."

Agreed.

I guess Naomi matches Zoe in helping her commander fill in the blank spots, but that's more of just the XO function. Otherwise, their actions and relations with others are different.

Amos doesn't have Jayne's hilarious love of being gruff and bad. Naomi is not a super-optimistic people-person like Kaylee.

Ian wrote: "The unique part of Firefly isn't a spaceship with a small crew! Even the characters of Firefly aren't all that special, they're just really well done. The unique part is the mashup of Westerns and space, with all the low-tech worlds Firefly normally went to. Life on the belt is gritty however it is anything *but* low-tech."

Agreed, and Leviathan Wakes is a mystery-story/space mash-up, its main characters being a typical noir detective and a strong but naive leader -- Firefly is a Western/space mash-up with a disillusioned but sometimes noble Han Solo-like main character. Feel pretty different.

I thought the most interesting characters in Firefly were Zoe and her brother... a method to her madness... of interest to Whedon. The rest of the characters were mostly for ratings.

I'm doing a Doll House marathon this weekend.

Anne wrote: "I thought the most interesting characters in Firefly were Zoe and her brother... a method to her madness... of interest to Whedon. The rest of the characters were mostly for ratings."

Zoe and her... brother? Rest of the characters for ratings?! *gasp*

Perhaps you need a rewatch of Firefly. Perhaps we all need a rewatch of Firefly! All Firefly, all the time!

To Netflix! (or DVD, or Blu-Ray...)

(River was the character with a brother, Simon, the doctor. Zoe had her husband, Wash, the pilot).

I agree with Michaela, I didn't catch the similarities to Firefly on my read-through of Leviathan Wakes, but post-discussions have certainly made me see them.

OK, finished the last bit of the book yesterday, and my other statements still hold, but I did see more Jayne-ness in Amos, especially in that last table conversation with Miller (view spoiler)[after Miller shot Dresden (hide spoiler)].

But I don't know if I would have thought that if I hadn't read this thread. I even started hearing Amos speak in Adam Baldwin's voice. O the power of the S&L threads.

None of the characters line up exactly with their Firefly counterparts, but there is definately a similar vibe. A vibe I will gladly pay good money to expirience time and time again. Keep flying, browncoats.

I heard the comparison to Firefly before I read the book (I love Firefly) and figured that couldn't be a bad thing. I didn't really get the connection though. Yes they are kind of down on their luck types in a small spaceship, but there are tons of sci-fi books, tv, and movies that have that as part of the story. The family aspect of the crew experience was a lot like Firefly to me, but I didn't see it in any of the specific characters. For one, Holden's crew was just too soft and not particularly good at being criminals (except Amos).

The one bit that reminded me of Firefly was when Alex goes into his calm pilot state during danger, I think of Wash saying 'I am a leaf on the wind'. (Which is not really a good memory.) Otherwise, they all seemed their own characters.

Having re-read it, I'm starting to see both the similarities and dissimilarities.

What swayed it a bit for me was that on my first read through was that, about halfway, I saw the closeness of the crew and slight similarity in some characters. I then kinda forced the character profiles onto the characters.
Re-reading, I can see that each character is different.

Alex is the least described main character in the book- always silent and behind the wheel, in control. I first related him to Wash, for obvious reasons, but he's too calm and quiet, and keeps to himself too much to be like Wash.

Amos is a smart guy in a brute's body- more of a space plumber. The only resemblance to Jayne is when he's in "tough guy" mode, but that could just be that Jayne wasn't really a complex character, so he could be easily superimposed to any similar characters.

Holden, on my second read-through, reminded me more of Jim Raynor in the Starcraft video game series. (Almost) always altruistic, in charge, calm, yet can be a bit rash at times. Whilst Mal is definitely a renagade, looks after his crew first and everyone else second, and has no problem killing a man if the need arises. Mal also has a major distrust in governments, whilst Holden remains neutral(ish), basing allegiances on current situations.

Naomi is in an interesting position, being the only crew member remaining unarmed throughout the book. It suggests she values human life tremendously, and possibly places it's preservation above all else. She's a female XO, and other than that shares very few similarities with Zoe.

As for Miller... well, he's just mad old Miller. (view spoiler)[ or just madly in love with a girl who he believes is dead. Which is still mad. (hide spoiler)]

Daniel Abraham has pretty much stated in various interviews that Firefly was a major influence in his work. I'm thinking specifically of the Geek's Guide to the Galaxy interview he did, go google it. I don't remember if it came up in the S&L interview or not

I can see why people might compare Holden and crew to Firefly, but for me I can't make the comparison. The crew of the Serenity were way cooler and much more bad ass then Holden and his gang. I thought that Holden's crew were well portrayed for who they were supposed to be, but there was none of the hidden depths to their characters and backgrounds that made the Serenity crew so interesting.

As the story progressed I liked Holden less and less. I just wanted to hit him with something before he made things worse - again.

(view spoiler)[ Mal would have killed that pyscho scientist in a heartbeat, not be morally outraged when Miller did it. (hide spoiler)]

Caroline wrote: "What about Miller?


I cast him as Columbo. Slightly embarrassing..."

Haha, no way! I think Tim Robbins would be a better choice. ;P

Does Leviathan Wakes have:

Seawood wrote: "What about Miller?


I cast him as Columbo. Slightly embarrassing..."

Perhaps because of the noir style to Miller's story, I couldn't help but hear Harrison Ford's voice when I read his dialogue.