The Sword and Laser discussion

What makes this space opera? I liked the book a lot, so this isn't a criticism. I just wouldn't have thought to call it space opera if George R. R. Martin hadn't said so on the cover (and seriously man, stop reviewing books - that sentence alone delayed the next book precious minutes).

I'm realizing I don't really know what "space opera" means. I think of it in relation to old (pulp?) adventure shows and movies set in space - Buck Rodgers, Flash Gordon, Star Wars? But I'm not sure that's accurate.

So what makes something space opera? Emotion? Action? Less concern with realism? Grand scale?

And does LW qualify? It definitely has action, but I found the emotion pretty realistic. It isn't realistic in the sense of being hard sci-fi, but it shows at least a strong fictional nod to physics, a more realistic feeling technology than a lot of sci-fi, and a much less grand scale (which I found refreshing).

IMO space opera is any story that involves: starships, planetary or interstellar travel, and lots of different places to explore. When you are stuck in one place it isn't space opera just sci fi

I think it mostly means big. It isn't just set on some planet far away (which could just as easily be a fantasy setting).

Goodreads has the definition of Space Opera as "a subgenre of speculative fiction or science fiction that emphasizes romantic, often melodramatic adventure, set mainly or entirely in space, generally involving conflict between opponents possessing powerful (and sometimes quite fanciful) technologies and abilities. Perhaps the most significant trait of space opera is that settings, characters, battles, powers, and themes tend to be very large-scale."

That seems pretty close to how I've seen it described in other places and how my husband, who is a big space opera fan, also describes it.

Edit -
Link to the Space Opera sub-genre page

I personally would classify LW closer to space opera lite.

My publisher takes nothing but space opera. That was the condition under which I was published. It's space exploration, lots of travel involving ship or ships--adventure--peril, discovery etc,. It can be defined as "off-planet." In my book I really get involved with the process and mechanics of space travel, using familiar science, or science tech within our grasp in the not too distant future.

Note - I would take the list of books under the Goodreads Space Opera sub-genre page (or any other genre page) with a grain of salt. This information is determined by how users shelve books. If a couple of people decided to shelve Harry Potter as space opera, it would show up under space opera.

But who defines the genres... The fans or the publishers?

I always thought it was "epic sci-fy" (as in epic fantasy [Song of Fire and Ice] big, complex, politics...), and mostly "soft sci-fy" (without much emphasis in science... ).

I associate the term "space opera" with large scale (interstellar) and high impact (potential species or civilisation-ending) story lines.

I think the term fits well for this book. While the immediate stage is not-interstellar, that's more to do with the time that it is set. (view spoiler)[The proto-molecule is clearly interstellar in origin. (hide spoiler)]

The series definitely meets the second criteria.

I always considered Space Opera as a simple sub genre of Scifi that focus is on interplanetary travel and a dramatic story arch. Here is the dictionary's definition of Opera

opera 1 |ˈäp(ə)rə|
noun
a dramatic work in one or more acts, set to music for singers and instrumentalists.
• such works as a genre of classical music.
• a building for the performance of opera.
ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: from Italian, from Latin, literally ‘labor, work.’
opera 2 |ˈɑp(ə)rə|
plural form of opus .
opus |ˈōpəs| |ˈoʊpəs| |ˈəʊpəs| |ˈɒp-|
noun ( pl. opuses |ˈoʊpəsəz| or opera |ˈäp(ə)rə| |ˈɑp(ə)rə| |ˈɒp(ə)rə|)
1 Music a separate composition or set of compositions by a particular composer, usually ordered by date of publication : The Gambler was Prokofiev's sixth opera, despite its early opus number. See also Op.
2 any artistic work, esp. one on a large scale : he was writing an opus on Mexico.
ORIGIN early 18th cent.: from Latin, literally ‘work.’

Now when I search "space opera" I get an almost opposing definition.

space opera
noun informal
a novel, movie, or television program set in outer space, typically of a simplistic and melodramatic nature.

But then I look in Wikipedia and I get a more appropriate definition that is similar to Random's.

Regardless I think It's just space involving scifi on a grand scale.

I feel like LW fits the bill. Although maybe less expansive, which i feel gives it a more grounded approach to the genre.

Random wrote: "Goodreads has the definition of Space Opera as "a subgenre of speculative fiction or science fiction that emphasizes romantic, often melodramatic adventure, set mainly or entirely in space, general..."

I think it's that "often melodramatic adventure" piece that I especially associate with space opera (and maybe the fanciful technology part too). Maybe I'm mistaken to focus on that. Most comments on this thread seem to focus on scale as the main issue. But it seems to me that a very intricate and realistic political drama that was set across many planets in a large universe wouldn't be space opera.

It's the melodrama that I picture when I hear "space opera" too. Star Wars, the Lensman series, Buck Rogers, that sort of thing. Lots of adventure.

From what i understand, the term space opera came from soap opera. The name was given to classic cliché sci-fy histories. Adventure, some well used clichés, big universes to explore. It's a epic novel in space. Some kind of intergalatic lord of the rings.

Thanks for this thread! I was wondering the same thing. It seems like it's another genre definition that depends on who's answering the questions. However, I do now have a better understanding of the general sense of the term "space opera." I was really just thrown off with the opera part, since operas are a very specific form of music theater. Until Diego mentioned, I totally forgot about "soap opera." I could see how the term "opera" came to mean dramatic in other uses.

To me space opera implies FTL. I would call Leviathan Wakes 'solar opera' (as well as 2312 and Blue Remembered Earth).

Pardon me for putting on my "Guy Who's Read Too Many Anthologies" hat, and feel free to skip...

"Space opera" was originally a pejorative—conventional wisdom is that back in the '40s, the prominent fanzine writer Wilson Tucker first used the term to make a connection between the really melodramatic radio soap operas and what he described as the "hacky, grinding, stinking, outworn, spaceship yarn."

It didn't take long for the term to mutate into a widely-used descriptive label for any sci-fi that had space travel and adventure, like Poul Anderson's Polesotechnic League stories (as opposed to, say, the sci-fi stories about Earthbound futures or pipe-smoking scientists inventing time machines in their attics).

After the New Wave writers did their best to "legitimize" science fiction in the '60s & '70s—practically eliminating stuff like space travel and adventure and fun in the process oh I'm sorry was that my out loud voice?—the so-called "widescreen" stuff that's also called "New Space Opera" made a comeback, with added geopolitical and posthuman overtones.

So, to make some kind of point with all this long-winded rambling (sorry y'all), I think that LW definitely qualifies as space opera because the space travel is important to the story, and there are interplanetary politics, and the physiological differences between the Belters and the inner planets folks play into that posthuman thing. Not as "widescreen" as some, but definitely well within the ballpark.

@Madison well the term soap opera comes from opera... and operas (the music theater) usually have big dramatic plots. they're both just a reference to opera.

@Tamahome: I bet interstellar conflict is coming to the Expanse series. :) Regardless all the planet and asteroid hooping makes it space operatic enough to me.

Ian wrote: "@Madison well the term soap opera comes from opera... and operas (the music theater) usually have big dramatic plots. they're both just a reference to opera."

Yeppers. I've know that for "soap opera", but for some reason I didn't even think about "soap opera" when reading the term "space opera". So my mind was very stuck on the specific definition of opera and not how it could be used in other ways. It clicked after reading this thread. Kinda one of those "OHHHHHH, wow I was silly" moments.

Tamahome wrote: "To me space opera implies FTL. I would call Leviathan Wakes 'solar opera' (as well as 2312 and Blue Remembered Earth)."

But House of Suns and the Revelation Space trilogy also lack FTL and they're clearly space opera.

I agreed that LEVIATHAN WAKES seemed like a space opera lite -- but by the next book, the characters, plot, and story are expanded (in a good way).

Space Opera is scifi set on the big universal stage. This orbits plain old Sol, so maybe not quite the "in a galaxy far, far away" sort of thing.

It's funny that this thread comes up. I was just talking to my husband about the same question. He thought that you need adventure and romance plus the galactic scale with spaceships. Seemed reasonable to me, but I think I would add something about space opera being a bit more simplistic in the good vs. evil sense. Think evil Empire vs. good Rebel Alliance. LW has a more complex moral and ethical landscape. That's why it doesn't feel like straight up space opera to me.

I agree, Heather. Some of the bad guys were clearly bad but a lot of the "good guys" were much more morally ambiguous. That distinguishes it a bit from space opera, and also makes it a much more interesting read!

I always thought that a space opera was just
1.) a story that took place in outer space, on a planet other than Earth, or on a future Earth where extraplanetary travel has become more common, and
2.) covered many common sci-fi tropes.

Therefore, I think LW is a good example of a space opera. However, I also feel like the term is too general, and that space epic is a better fit mostly because it features a variety of different settings.

off topic. can someone explain to me what's the difference between space opera and military sf?

In my uneducated opinon, military SF deals with the strategies and tactics of battle, in space or on planets. Elizabeth Moon and David Weber spring to mind as authors who write a lot of that kind of thing.

Space opera, to me, comes from soap opera: it's about the grand schemes, cultural changes, love stories, and so on. Lots of melodrama, not much gritty tactical combat details.

I don't recall much moral complexity (or else it got overwhelmed by the Evil Scientists)--could someone elaborate?

Probably a bit spoilerish and also somewhat off topic for this particular thread:

I'm talking about the ambiguity of whether Holden did the right thing in (view spoiler)[broadcasting the information instead of keeping it secret (several times) (hide spoiler)], and whether Miller did the right thing in (view spoiler)[shooting people instead of letting them live (also several times) (hide spoiler)], for instance.

I like the way Miller and Holden often disagree about those things and leave it up to you to figure out who is right.