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4. CATHERINE THE GREAT - CHAPTERS TWENTY-SEVEN - THIRTY-FIVE (151 - 202) ~ July 30th - Aug 5th;No Spoilers, Please
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Chapter Summaries for discussion27. Saltykov
Three new noblemen are assigned to Peter - Lev Naryshkin, and the Saltykov brothers Peter and Sergei. Their father was an aide to the empress. Sergei was handsome, charming, and a womanizer even though married to one of the empresses lady in waiting. He was attracted to Catherine and saw that she was ignored by Peter and determine to make her his conquest. Catherine and Sergei developed a relationship enabled by Madam Choglokov whose watchdog abilities diminished as she was pregnant again and on bed rest. Monsieur Choglokov was easily distracted allowing the couple time together. During a hunting trek Sergei pleaded his case of a secret affair to Catherine She resisted but eventually gave in. Peter viewed the secret affairs as a joke on the Choglokovs. Madam Choglokova and the empress argue again about the lack of an heir and Madam Choglokova sets out to do something about it. First she arranged for Peter to spend time with a sexually mature woman, a widow the Madame Groot. Peter was also persuaded - while drunk - to submit to corrective surgery for phimosis. Madam Choglokova takes Catherine aside to discuss the lack of children and suggest it is her duty to produce one even if that means through someone other than her husband. Madam Choglokova baits Catherine to admit she is attracted to Sergei and thereafter quits guarding her bedroom when he is around. Catherine becomes pregnant and has two miscarriages. Catherine approaches Bestuzhev for a favor to help Sergei's career. Seeing an opportunity to gain new allies he agrees. Peter continues playing with his toys, getting drunk and flogging his servants. Fire in Moscow was a problem because all the structures were built with wood and heated with poorly tiled stoves. One day the Golovin palace burns down and they are ordered to move in with the Choglokovs. Most of Catherine's books were saved. The empress lost most of her wardrobe (some 4,000 dresses) and Peter's many chest of drawers were saved all containing wine and liquor Catherine and Peter move back in with the empress. Catherine becomes pregnant a third time. Monsieur Choglokov dies after a brief stomach illness.
28. The Birth of an Heir
Count Alexander Shuvalov was appointed to replace Monsieur Choglokov and Madam Choglokova was relieved of her duties. Shuvalov's wife becomes Catherine's new governess. Catherine's birth rooms are set up in the empresses apartment isolating her from Sergei. She gives birth a a son in Sept 1754 named Paul. Elizabeth was elated. Catherine was left lying on the floor for 3 hours after giving birth while the midwife attended to Elizabeth and the baby. Catherine was not permitted to see the baby for over a week and then only briefly. Sergei Saltykov was sent to Sweden and Catherine was even more depressed and stayed in bed another 40 days. The empress 'behaved as if the child were her own'. She capitalized the child's time and Catherine was not permitted to see or hold her son. She turned to books, and read about the history of the roman empire, the enlightenment. Saltykov was to be sent away again after his return, permanently separating him from Catherine.
29. Retaliation
After providing Elizabeth an heir Catherine decides to change her tune. She wanted it known she would not tolerate mistreatment. At a party she was hard on the Shuvalovs. When Peter confronted her she mocked his scorn. Peter retreated, drunk and confused. Peter decides to send for troops from Holstein and had to feed and house them despite the fact he was in debt. Catherine takes walks to avoid Peter and his games.
30. The English Ambassador
An English ambassador, Sir Charles Hanbury-Williams, arrives with an aide Count Stanislaus Poniatowski. The three become allies of sorts, Sir Charles as a friend. Sir Charles was born into a wealthy English family and he became a European diplomat. He came to Russia to renew a subsidies and defense treaty should Prussia invade Hanover. The empress ignored him and Peter has Prussian loyalties but he soon found an ally in Catherine. They exchanged letters and Catherine borrowed money from him to pay her debts and cover her spending.
31. A Diplomatic Earthquake
Bestuzhev signed the treaty in Sept 1755 which immediately alarmed the King of Prussia. He renewed talks separately with Great Britain. It sent up hackles forcing France and Austria to align giving rise to a new diplomacy structure in Europe. Prussia invaded Saxony, and Austrian territory, triggering France to defend Austria, with Russia joining Austria and France resisting Prussia. Sir Charles was in the middle of once allies now fighting each other. He touted Catherine as his Russian ally although she was unaware her comments were being passed to Prussia.
32. Poniatowski
Stanislaus was of Polish nobility. He toured the capitals of Europe on his quest for a public career and joined Sir Charles in Russia. Catherine was attracted by his charm and intellect. He lacked gravitas and naive about sex - he was a virgin. He was however attentive, loyal and discreet earning her admiration. They became lovers.
33. A Dead Rat, an Absent Lover, and a Risky Proposal
Catherine and Peter were 10 years into a divided marriage. Peter played with toy soldiers in the winter wearing his full Holstein uniform. One day Catherine discovers that Peter hung a rat in a makeshift gallows after a court martial of the rat for eating a paper mache sentry. Lev Naryshkin arranged for Catherine and Poniatowski to see each other privately undetected. Peter rotated his affection for women among Catherine's court in open contempt of her. Catherine and Peter argued about this and he threatens to tell the empress she is being disrespectful. Catherine tells Peter the empress will surely dismiss the offending maids creating the stir and Peter backs off. Poniatowski was sent back home to Poland. When he did not return quickly as Catherine expected she pressed the issue with Bestuzhev and he eventually returned. The empress was increasingly falling ill. THe chancellor worried for his own power and Peter's lack of skill. He turned his attention to Catherine. He wrote to her outlining a succession plan which included Catherine as co-ruler. She reacted cautiously knowing if the empress discovers it she could have their heads.
34. Catherine Challenges Brockdorff; She Gives a Party
When Brockdorff advises Peter to have Elendsheim arrested in Holstein on bribery rumors, Catherine objects and Peter has Brockdorff explain it to her. Peter goes ahead with the plan anyway and Catherine seeks out to express her concerns to the empress. Catherine helps Peter with his other simple affairs of state for Holstein and suggests he ask to attend council meetings with the empress. Peter would seek out Catherine's advise and she would help him almost treating him like a brother Elizabeth was not pleased that Catherine was familiar with state affairs of Holstein In summer 1757 Catherine gives a party for Peter. It was lavish and earned her high praise. She was pleased as her goal was to disarm her enemies. A new French ambassador appears to make peace and his only success is supplanting Sir Charles who was in ill health. The empress is also weakening and Catherine's power is rising.
35. Apraksin's Retreat
Russia had been at war with Prussia for a year but sent not troops. With Elizabeth's declining health the concern was that Peter would be in charge and he admired the Prussian king. Apraksin was a general and friend of Bestuzhev. Catherine assures Apraksin she is not sympathetic to Prussia After Apraksin's troops are victorious at Memel, Apraksin retreats rather than advance Elation turns into confusion. Turns out he was having difficulty with food and ammunition supply and was ordered by the empress to retreat, but never told anyone. The empress collapses in public attending church. When Apraksin is interrogated about his military retreat, he collapsed dead during sentencing, never hearing he was to be set free.
I cannot think of many history books that are such truly outlandish stories as this. Nearly every event is as if written by a surrealist with a wild imagination. It certainly qualifies as a page-turner, especially for those like me who did not know this story prior.
Paul wrote: "I cannot think of many history books that are such truly outlandish stories as this. Nearly every event is as if written by a surrealist with a wild imagination. It certainly qualifies as a pag..."
Paul I agree completely and like you I knew nothing of this story before picking up the book. The court martial of the rat almost did me in. Peter is one bizzare individual.
Massie's brief description of the 1753 Moscow fire gives us some context for, what thus far, has been a very confined telling of Catherine's story (p 159-161). The destruction of 4,000 of Elizabeth's dresses offers a shocking image of the concentration of wealth and opulent living of a handful of Russians. One wonders why the Revolution was so long in coming.
Joanne wrote: "Massie's brief description of the 1753 Moscow fire gives us some context for, what thus far, has been a very confined telling of Catherine's story (p 159-161). The destruction of 4,000 of Elizabeth..."We've read about the opulence of some of these gowns and the lavish parties but until the description of the fire I didn't realize how extensive Elizabeth's dress collection actually was. Even if she was exagerating somewhat, it still represents a significant collection and concentration of wealth.
One of the things that really struck me in these particular chapters is the growing influence of Catherine politically and how her relationship with Peter plays into it. Peter openly cheats on her romantically yet comes to her for advice on other things including matters of state in Holstein. She has proven to be his confidant on occasion at least covering for some of his misdeeds as a way to keep his trust, which she views as her duty. Yet others around the imperials who see that Peter can be odd and childish see something different in her and at least find her more approachable of the two. Do others reading this see the same thing?
I agree Alisa. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we also have to remember that most of the descriptions of Peter come from Catherine's diaries or from her perspective. While he certainly seems very odd and childish, in his defense, we don't get to hear anything from his side since after all, this book is about Catherine, not him. I don't know anything about him from other books but I'm wondering what their characterizations might be of him.
Rich wrote: "I agree Alisa. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we also have to remember that most of the descriptions of Peter come from Catherine's diaries or from her perspective. While he certainly seems ..."That is true too. We do know however that he is the deisgnated heir to the throne at this point. I just find their relationship dynamic to be very intriguing despite what had to have been a troubled marraige and strained interpersonal relations.
I had focussed so much on Peter's terrible childhood that I attributed all of his bad behavior to it. However, after being reminded about Peter's beloved Holstein (page 158: "Peter who hated the Austrian alliance, ... , and Peter who was quite prepared to sacrifice the interests of the Russian empire to those of tiny, insignificant Holstein." I wonder if Peter felt that he had been kidnapped and betrayed by Elizabeth as he was forced to be her heir? As the book is from Catherine's point of view at this point we really don't know how much Peter felt betrayed at having to leave Holstein.
In effect, she simply kidnapped the baby. (Page 167) Here Elizabeth shows her true colors. It was after all truly Catherine's womb that Elizabeth was interested in having. Paul was hers (ELizabeth) bought and paid for I suppose.
Kathy wrote: "I had focussed so much on Peter's terrible childhood that I attributed all of his bad behavior to it. However, after being reminded about Peter's beloved Holstein (page 158: "Peter who hated the Au..."His home country is the one thing he seems to have loved that could not hurt him. All the people in his life betrayed him in some way.
Kathy wrote: "In effect, she simply kidnapped the baby. (Page 167) Here Elizabeth shows her true colors. It was after all truly Catherine's womb that Elizabeth was interested in having. Paul was hers (ELizabeth)..."What a harsh reality and rude awakening this must have been for Catherine. She is left on the floor without so much as help getting back into a real bed and Elizabeth acts as if she barely exists. Bought and paid for, well put. Sad though. I think this was just part of the imperial business. Startling way to go about it.
I've read about some revisionist "histories" that cast Peter in a better light, portraying him as a more enlightened man. As we all must realize, most of this biography is based on Catherine's diaries/memoirs and as such may reflect her personal distaste for her husband. I'm sure there's truth in her accounts, but there is also bias. I was horrified reading about how Catherine was left lying on the mat on the floor after giving birth. It's almost incomprehensible that no servant or attendant assisted her.
I find it odd that with Elizabeth's rapidly declining health there is more emphasis on producing an heir than there is preparing Peter to ascend to the throne. There seems to be none of that going on.For Catherine to be left lying on the floor was indeed shocking. Most of the medical practices recounted in the book thus far have been similarly surprising. It's no small wonder, these folks must have had a short life expectancy.
As we see the manner in which Catherine is treated by Elizabeth and Peter, it amazes me that she didn't lose her reason!Do you think that Elizabeth recognized Peter's instability and probable inability to reign and pinned her hopes on the heir instead?
Jill wrote: "As we see the manner in which Catherine is treated by Elizabeth and Peter, it amazes me that she didn't lose her reason!Do you think that Elizabeth recognized Peter's instability and probable inab..."
I think a lot of people recognized Peter's instability. Elizabeth however needed some way to insure her legacy. She was desperate for an heir.
Kathy wrote: "In effect, she simply kidnapped the baby. (Page 167) Here Elizabeth shows her true colors. It was after all truly Catherine's womb that Elizabeth was interested in having. Paul was hers (ELizabeth)..."I wondered if in some weird way she didn't regard Catherine/Sophia and Peter as another sort of serf/slave with no real feelings she need worry about? She is incredibly arbitrary & seem unconcerned about the miserable existence they have on her orders!
Marilee wrote: "I was horrified reading about how Catherine was left lying on the mat on the floor after giving birth. It's almost incomprehensible that no servant or attendant assisted her."After so many friends and servants had been sent away for being kind to the couple, what would be left would be the harder hearts. They would help if ordered to do so. They might help out on general principles if told being kind to Catherine wasn't a career-killer, but they weren't going to put themselves out on a limb. Who knew if the empress would order her to be ignored till she died? Elizabeth could kill Catherine any time on any excuse and no one would stop her. After all, she had been cruel to little Ivan.
(I always wondered why Elizabeth didn't raise Ivan?)
As for Elizabeth - she knew she had been hard on the young woman and was planning to do worse in effectively kidnapping the baby... so Elizabeth had hardened her heart against Sophia/Catherine. She may have liked Sophia when she first came but Elizabeth was fully abusive by now.
It is likely Elizabeth had all sorts of judgmental excuses to cover those sins (there are echoes of them in the stories told), and just rehearsing those ugly thoughts would turn her further against the young mother.
She knew that Catherine would usually be too afraid to defend herself from Elizabeth's self-justifying insults - even when said to Catherine's face. Then she could tell herself (and whoever else) that Catherine not refuting her insults proved they were true.
Its a sick scene, but its human.
I've seen people act like that - wrong you and then insult you to themselves. family, friends and anyone else that might take your part.
In part, this shields the victimizer's self-esteem. They may convince themselves that 'you deserved it because you are a (ugly label here)' or (when blocking you getting something neat or taking away what you valued) 'you would 'break/mess this up so I'm going to keep it myself' ....
I am amazed at how resilient Catherine is becoming. The removal of any confidants she may have had and the introduction of a lover into her life seems to have given this young girl great motivation to become her on woman. You can see her beginning to use people for her own personnel use. The gaining of power over others is coming to forefront. She must realize by now that Peter is never going to be anything but a puppet for whomever has contact with him at the time. Her taking new lovers on gives this girl power over those around her. Her survival of child birth, the intrigues in the court and her realizing that she has the better grasp of what is going on in the world is just now coming to forefront. Although a young woman she is beginning to show that she is far superior to anyone around her in Russia. I just wonder where this drive and intellect comes from? Her Mother or Father or maybe just her on drive to be great. The few friends and allies she has gained are true friends and not just fair weather friends. Her making and using friends outside the court is a stroke of genius on her part. What a brave and resourceful woman she is becoming. Can hardly wait to see what she does next to advance her drive for power.
I was surprised that it seemed okay that Catherine had taken a lover before an heir was produced. Socially it was more acceptable for the male to have affairs as if he produced offspring from them, the child was easily a bastard. But if the female had an affair then how would anyone know if the child was a bastard or the offspring of the marriage? I was surprised that the fatherhood of Paul was discussed so openly in Europe.
Susan wrote: "Marilee wrote: "I was horrified reading about how Catherine was left lying on the mat on the floor after giving birth. It's almost incomprehensible that no servant or attendant assisted her."Afte..."
Interesting observations Susan. I wonder if Elizabeth justified how she treated others as part of the necessary sacrifice to support the throne?
Clayton wrote: "I am amazed at how resilient Catherine is becoming. The removal of any confidants she may have had and the introduction of a lover into her life seems to have given this young girl great motivation..."I too am impressed by her growing savvy and seeing her coming into her own power. You are right, she really hasn't had much in teh way of positive role models to set an example. She is figuring this out on her own. Maybe her self-styled education is exposing her to ways of thinking way beyond what is immediately accessible to her. Bright gal. She certainly is fighting to survive.
Kathy wrote: "I was surprised that it seemed okay that Catherine had taken a lover before an heir was produced. Socially it was more acceptable for the male to have affairs as if he produced offspring from them,..."Madam Choglokova's idea to convince Catherine that producing an heir through someone other than her husband was not only acceptaible buther responsibility was somewhat shrewd on her part. At least through Elizabeth's eyes, not producing an heir was simply unacceptable. I'm kind of surprised Catherine fell for the ploy, but it worked. All the accountability for producing an heir seems to fall on the woman. I'm not sure anyone cared who the father was.
Especially if the father was Peter!It continues to amaze me that Peter and Catherine are in debt while Elizabeth hands out precious stones as if they were pebbles. The wealth of the Empress seems to have no bounds and I am curious as to the source of these magnificent gems. For example, in England, many of the jewels came from the Empire and the plundering of countries such as India. I doubt if the book will address my curiosity regarding this matter.
Jill wrote: "Especially if the father was Peter!It continues to amaze me that Peter and Catherine are in debt while Elizabeth hands out precious stones as if they were pebbles. The wealth of the Empress seems..."
Glad you raised this, I have been wondering of the origin of the money, gems, fabrics, etc, that seem to be abundant. The diamond encrusted portrait frames, where do those come from? It must be serfs and slaves that make this stuff - I can't see Elizabeth setting gems around her own portrait frame - but how these items get into the flow of things in the first instance is a mystery to me.
Paul wrote: "I cannot think of many history books that are such truly outlandish stories as this. Nearly every event is as if written by a surrealist with a wild imagination."I agree with Paul. This is certainly one of those stories in which truth is stranger than fiction.
Catherine's reactions to being deprived of her first born child included reading history and philosophy. The image of Catherine reading alone in her freezing, drafty room is poignant. What really impressed me is her ability, even at this low point, to understand and absorb the Enlightenment philosophy which helped her to rule. I gained a lot of respect for Catherine after reading this.
Gina wrote: "Catherine's reactions to being deprived of her first born child included reading history and philosophy. The image of Catherine reading alone in her freezing, drafty room is poignant. What really i..."So true. She really had nowhere to turn to.
I agree with Paul. Truth is stranger than fiction here. I have to wonder if all this is truth or is it truth laundered. She tells a remarkable story of strength of mind at the most horrid of times. She did not sink into apathy or depression after the birth rather she picked up books and read. I wonder who supplied her with the books since intellectual pursuits did not seem to be part of the courtlife at this point.
Janis I am not sure what you mean by 'truth laundered.' A hundred people can witness the exact same thing and all differ in their description of the event. We know that the author relied on a variety of sources for his research and is undoubtedly weaving all that material together to come up with the comprehensive view. Some of the vignettes offered in the book are sometimes shocking, no doubt about it. This is a story pulled together from a compendium of facts as recounted from numerous sources.
Good point, Alisa. History, especially prior to the 19th century, can often be revisionist at best and an author can only depend on what s/he can glean from his sources. Russia was such a big unknown that, frankly, I was surprised that he had that much resource material from which to draw. The fact that the source material may be slightly exaggerated or modified is something that historians (and readers) just have to deal with.And as Janis and Paul noted, truth if often stranger than fiction, even though we can always wonder how much veracity there is in the memoirs of Catherine.
Joanne and Marilee, I am moving your remarks to the bibliography thread. The weekly threads are for discussing the weekly assigned pages in the book. Since your discussion is regarding the sources used by the author that discussion rightfully belongs on the bibliography thread.Thanks.
Alisa wrote: "Joanne and Marilee, I am moving your remarks to the bibliography thread. The weekly threads are for discussing the weekly assigned pages in the book. Since your discussion is regarding the source..."Thanks, Alisa.
Mod
Catherine – Ch.27-35This seems to be more and more like a soap opera script. Though the book is very well written and informative, I can’t say that it is, for me, enjoyable reading. I have yet to see many participants in Catherine’s life that demonstrate good character. The exception so far seems to be Babete, Catherine’s tutor during her early years.
Peter, with his strange behavior and drunkenness, is so bizarre. The Choglokova’s actions fit the words that Catherine used to describe them. Catherine does not seem to lack words describing subsequent “watchdogs” supplied by Empress Elizabeth, either. On page 163 Catherine describes the Shuvalov’s as “ignorant, ignoble people.”
Sad and strange that Elizabeth is the one to name Catherine’s baby. Yet even more strange is that Catherine is left on the floor for 3 hours and ignored after giving birth. Then Elizabeth sends one hundred thousand rubles to Catherine and some jewelry and later the money is requested to be returned. I like Massie’s description on page 167 that “In effect, she (Elizabeth) simply kidnapped the baby.”
No surprise that Catherine, denied the joys of motherhood once again, turns to books. In chapter 30 the British ambassador is seated next to Catherine. I like how Massie describes this meeting. “He (British ambassador) discovered a natural ally, a cultured European able to appreciate intelligent conversation, who took a keen interest in books…”
It is so interesting to read in chapter 32 how Catherine’s next man in her life “expressed admiration not merely for her title and beauty but also for Catherine’s mind and temperament.”
If there was not already a question in my mind regarding Peter’s sanity, chapter 33 and the description of the dead rat hanging from a model gallows secured the thought that Peter is mentally ill. It is surprising that Catherine continues to be supportive of Peter. It appears that few in power would be supportive of Peter’s ruling the country upon the death of Elizabeth.
Reading through the comments above, my thoughts are, "It was indeed a strange time, culture, and series of events that we are learning about." We often hear it said that monarchs "belong to their nation." But I can't fathom any king or queen having their baby taken away at birth because it belonged to the nation...seems hard to believe even for that time and country. As has been noted, chapter 28, page 167 tell us: "In effect, she simply kidnapped the baby." Surprising enough that this happened. More astounding that it apparently happened with hardly a raised eye brow in response. I'm not aware of other civilizations where something like this took place. Is this characteristic of Russia...or was this only a one time bizarre event by a desperate and all powerful empress?
When I think back on my own childhood, I'm sure I must read or add into my memory the way things were. Did I really believe this or that, or do this or that, when I was only 10...or is it more how I remember it now based in part on the ensuing events of my life? On page 171 (chapter 29), we are told that "Catherine decided to change her behavior." I do wonder if those changes were conscious decisions at her young age...or somewhat tempered reflections in old age. At any rate, there obviously was more to her...more to her character, aspirations, and determination...than most people likely gave her credit for or saw in her when she was in her early 20s. But she was perceptive enough to take in the coming changes and potential turmoil as a result of Empress Elizabeth's departure from the throne. And she quietly, deliberately, and effectively went about working on a plan that would see her move into the seat of power. Perhaps the likelihood of that happening in history is rather small...unless the right pieces are in place to facilitate it taking place. No doubt Catherine's personality and character played a big part. Also, the chaotic nature of Russian politics and power certainly would have helped. And a few key people stepping into her life just at the opportune moment seems also to have been essential.
It is interesting to note (chapter 34, page 194) that as Elizabeth's death became more imminent, Catherine at the same time sought ways to instruct herself in the ways of governing. We are told that, "While she waited, Catherine became involved in Peter's affairs in a positive way." Given the tremendous abuse and scorn he endured from Peter, Elizabeth, and others, it speaks a lot to her character that she was able to continue living productively and looking for positive opportunities to advance herself in the midst of events that would drive many others to despair.I find the story very fascinating...as much for all the unexpected and unanticipated events as for the slice of history that we are looking at.
Perceptive comments, Lewis. I think as we move forward in the book, her plans for power may become more evident. Russia was (and still is) such an enigma that it may be hard to determine exactly how events progressed but she certainly knew the right things to do to endear herself to the Russian people and picked her friends rather carefully....very wise for such a young woman
I agree with everyone's comments on how bizarre / surrealistic Catherine and Peter's lives are.Along with the strangeness of the internal intrigues of the court, I'm also amazed at the alliances and politics of diplomacy. The political marriages seem useless - on Page 180 Massie, discussing the tensions between Britain and Prussia notes that George the II was brother-in-law to Frederick II (George's sister Sophia married Frederick).
It was a bit dizzying - by the next year the alliance had shifted so Prussia was now aligned with Britain, while Austria and France aligned, along with Russia (although not very aggressively on Russia's part).
I also was surprised at Britain's funding of Russia.
I wish there was some graphics or family tree included in the book, color coded to show which country the political marriages had effect on etc. Yes Brian, it is certainly a bit dizzying trying to follow the alliances of which countries. Sounds like everyone suspected everyone else of some sort of political intrigue.
Barbara wrote: "Catherine – Ch.27-35This seems to be more and more like a soap opera script. Though the book is very well written and informative, I can’t say that it is, for me, enjoyable reading. I have yet to ..."
You make some good points, Barbara. I too found the court martialed rat incident absolutely bizzare and made me doubt Peter's sanity even more. What a twisted individual. Catherine's taking solace in reading seems like an escape which provided comfort to her in times when the people around her were at their worst. It is interesting to see how some of the men react to her intellect.
Interestingly, the book doesn't address the question of what Catherine's expectations were of what her motherhood experience would be. I can't imagine it would involve having her child taken from her andkept away from her, or having it named by Elizabeth. Even though she was isolated from her child after birth, we don't really know if this was something that she expected would be thrust upon her as an imperial. It is a depressing reality when you stop to consider what she went through.
Lewis wrote: "It is interesting to note (chapter 34, page 194) that as Elizabeth's death became more imminent, Catherine at the same time sought ways to instruct herself in the ways of governing. We are told tha..."Very interesting comments Lewis. I too think she shows a great deal of resiliency and perseverance in navigating some of these very challenging situations. She deals with the complexity well.
I also agree that this book is fascinating for the events and this specific moment and person in history.
Brian wrote: "I agree with everyone's comments on how bizarre / surrealistic Catherine and Peter's lives are.Along with the strangeness of the internal intrigues of the court, I'm also amazed at the alliances ..."
The switching of alliances is hard to follow. The alliance provisions in the treaties must look like a freeway map of Los Angeles! So much change going on during this time, a lot to absorb. It surprises me that Elizabeth is not more involved in actually ruling, at least we don't see much of that role highlighted.
Kathy wrote: "In effect, she simply kidnapped the baby. (Page 167) Here Elizabeth shows her true colors. It was after all truly Catherine's womb that Elizabeth was interested in having. Paul was hers (ELizabeth)..."I felt for Catherine. Massie states that even mothers during this time had a chance to hold the baby, get some bonding in.
Bryan, tough to imagine isn't it? Painful to read what she endured.
For the week of July 30th - Aug 5th, we are reading chapters 27 through 35 of Catherine the Great.
The week's reading assignment is:
WEEK FOUR - July 30th - Aug 5th > Chapter 27 - 35, pp 151 - 202
Part III ~ Seduction, Motherhood and Confrontation , Chapter 27 Saltykov, Chapter 28 The Birth of the Heir, Chapter 29 Retaliation, Chapter 30 The English Ambassador, Chapter 31 A Diplomatic Earthquake, Chapter 32 Poniatowski, Chapter 33 A Dead Rat, and Absent Lover, and a Risky Proposal, Chapter 34 Catherine Challenges Brockdorff, She Gives a Party, Chapter 35 Apraksins Retreat
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book is being kicked off on July 9th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. We offer a special thank you to Random House for their generosity.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Alisa will be leading this discussion.
Welcome,
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS
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The author Robert Massie will not be joining the discussion.