The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of Sept 17th - Sept 23nd, we are reading chapters 69 through 73 of Catherine the Great.

WEEK ELEVEN - Sept 17th - Sept 23nd > Chapter 69 - 73, pp 519 - 574
Chapter 69 Art, Architecture, and the Bronze Horseman, Chapter 70 They Are Capable of Hanging Their King from a Lampost!, Chapter 71 Dissent in Russia, Final Partition of Poland, Chapter 72 Twilight, Chapter 73 The Death of Catherine the Great

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on July 9th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. We offer a special thank you to Random House for their generosity.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Alisa will be leading this discussion.

Welcome,

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Robert K. Massie

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...

The author Robert Massie will not be joining the discussion.

by Robert K. Massie

Following are the chapter summaries for the coming week's reading assignment.

Chapter 69: Art, Architecture, and the Bronze Horseman

The superb art collection that can be seen today at the Hermitage Museum in St. Petersburg, is the result of Catherine's collecting mania. She begins by purchasing a collection of paintings intended for Frederick II. She sends word to her ambassadors and agents in Europe to be alert for collections that might come up for sale. For the next 25 years, she acquires masterpieces from across Europe, including the collection of the late Robert Walpole. Her purchase of this collection causes much concern in England. She also begins building, to leave her mark on St. Petersburg. She builds a private retreat for herself and some of her art, which she call the Little Hermitage. She builds two palaces for Orlov and the largest and most impressive, the Tauride Palace, for Potemkin. The palace she builds for her son Paul and his wife still stands and is considered a masterpiece. The single most famous artistic work of Catherine's reign is the equestrian statue of Peter the Great, located on the banks of the Neva. It took sixteen years before the statue was unveiled and it still stands today. On the base is the inscription "PETER THE FIRST FROM CATHERINE THE SECOND". She had now identified herself with her predecessor.

Chapter 70: They Are Capable of Hanging Their King from a Lampost

In this chapter we look at the events in France which lead to the overthrow of King Louis XVI and Queen Marie Antoinette, from the storming of the Bastille to the thwarted attempt by the royal family to escape. King Leopold of Austria signs the Declaration of Pillnitz which is created to put the King of France back on the throne, although no concrete steps are proposed as to how this is to be accomplished. It outrages the French government and they declare war on Austria. Catherine worries that the French Revolution will threaten all European monarchies. Although she does not send troops to help quell the revolution, she subsidizes King Gustavus III of Sweden to send 12,000 troops to France. This comes to nothing when Gustavus in assassinated. Prussia joins Austria in the war against France. When the Prussians seize Verdun, the Paris mob massacres hundreds of "traitors" and the guillotine continues to fall on all that have any connection, real or imagined, to the royalists.The King and Queen suffer the same fate. Finally, with the death of Robespierre the worst of the terror comes to an end.

Chapter 71: Dissent in Russia, Final Partition of Poland

The French Revolution has a dramatic effect on Catherine and she begins to rethink the Enlightenment philosophy and begins a censorship policy. A young author, Alexander Radishchev writes A Journey from St. Petersburg to Moscow in which he describes the plight of the serfs and offers a plan for their gradual emancipation. Catherine views his work as reflective of the revolutionary "French poison", has him arrested and he is sentenced to death. His sentence is commuted to exile in Siberia. After the partition of Poland in 1772, that country's government was overseen by Russia. While Catherine is involved in the Turkish war, Poland sees its chance and confederates, overturning the governmental structure endorsed by Russia. The new constitution weakens the nobility on which Catherine relies. At that time France declares war on Austria which had vowed to ally with Poland. Now Catherine could act. Russian troops cross the Polish border and the Poles lay down their arms. Russia allies with Prussia and Poland is partitioned once again. The Poles find the partition intolerable and the Polish hero, Kosciuszko arises to lead a revolt. He is defeated and armed resistance comes to an end. For the next 126 years the people and culture of Poland do not possess a nation.


Chapter 72: Twilight

At age 67 and in her thirty-fifth year on the throne, Catherine is renowned throughout the world. Her days are filled with work, reading and welcoming visitors. In the evening she entertains privately in the Hermitage. Her health begins to decline and she suffers from headaches, indigestion,rheumatism, and ulcerated legs. But she continues to visit Tsarkoe Selo with friends and family. Catherine emulates her late mother-in-law Elizabeth by assuming dominance over her first grandson, Alexander. Destined to rule Russia, he is brought up in the English model while his brother,Constantine is brought up in a manner befitting one who would assume the Greek throne. At age fifteen, Alexander marries Louisa of Baden (she became Elizabeth after her Orthodox conversion). They were destined to be childless. Catherine arranges a marriage between her grand-daughter, Alexandra and the young uncrowned King of Sweden, Gustavus. At the betrothal ceremony, Catherine, the prospective bride and the court are kept waiting until word is received that the marriage will not take place due to religious differences. Catherine is humiliated and angered to the point that her health is affected.

Chapter 73: The Death of Catherine the Great

On the morning of November 5th, Catherine does not emerge from her dressing room and is found unconscious on the floor. She is alive but does not speak as it appears that she has suffered a stroke. She is non-responsive and the court wonders if she will regain consciousness long enough to disinherit Paul in favor of Alexander. The family and favored court members gather at the bedside and the vigil lasts through the night. Thirty six hours after she is stricken, Catherine dies and it is announced that Paul has "deigned to mount the throne of all the Russias". Two days later Tsar Paul has his father's coffin brought to St. Petersburg to lie in state beside Catherine. They are both interred in the Cathedral of St. Peter and St. Paul. She left a legacy of majesty equaled only the Elizabeth I of England and takes her place beside Peter the Great as the giants of the Romanov dynasty.

These are some of my favorite chapters. Again I love that Massie puts Catherine in context of the world and what was happening in Europe and the USA. I did not realize that she begin the Hermitage collection. What a national treasure.

The Hermitage is a national treasure, Kathy, with some of the finest art work in the world. But it is always rather sad to see collections that have been in families for generations sold because of debt, as in the case of the Walpole collection. But Catherine stood fast in her decision to buy it and almost caused an international incident with England. Visit this link below to learn the complete story and what has happened to some of that art.

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_E...

Jill wrote: "The Hermitage is a national treasure, Kathy, with some of the finest art work in the world. But it is always rather sad to see collections that have been in families for generations sold because o..."

Thanks, that was a great link to read!

I find it amazing that so many of the buildings that Catherine had commissioned survived the destruction of WWII since St. Petersburg (formerly Leningrad) was the site of one of the longest and most horrific battles of that war.

I suspect the commissioning and building of "The Bronze Horseman" is a book unto itself. What a story of art, trials, and survival!

Massie's very matter-of-fact telling of Catherine's death is certainly contrary to the rumors which have persisted about her demise. Various unfaltering rumors were no doubt started by her "enemies;" however, what source(s)provide the now accepted version that she died following a collapse in her private apartments? Massie certainly leaves any reader familiar with the myths curious.

Dying in her apartments of a probable stroke is certainly not as outre as the well-known story concerning the horse that has swirled around her death. (I assume that is the myth to which you are referring.) Although I am not sure what sources the author used to verify the cause of death, I don't think that serious historians accept the "death by horse" theory. Or is there another myth with which I am unfamiliar?

Jill wrote: "Dying in her apartments of a probable stroke is certainly not as outre as the well-known story concerning the horse that has swirled around her death. (I assume that is the myth to which you are re..."

There is also the myth that she died in her "closet" -- as in W.C. There may be others. And, yes, I was referring to the horse....

Oh yes, the WC myth......that one sounds a little more reasonable, doesn't it? And since the WC would probably be in the dressing room, she could have fallen to the floor after being stricken and Massie didn't elaborate further.

In Chapter 70, I was surprised that Massie went into so much detail about what was happening in France at the time of the Revolution and less time on Catherine's reactions. The Revolution was a major event in European history and I am making an assumption that most history lovers are very familiar with it. I felt he used it as "filler" for that chapter........or am I just being picky?
What are your thoughts?

I agree, Jill, Massie seems to divert our attention a little too long on events in France, including a section on the guillotine. I didn't see a connection to Russia.

Jill wrote: "In Chapter 70, I was surprised that Massie went into so much detail about what was happening in France at the time of the Revolution and less time on Catherine's reactions. The Revolution was a maj..."

I sensed Massie is enamored with the Revolution, hence, the overlong riff. This is just one of the points in the book where I felt a strong editor would have made a positive difference.

You have a point, Joanne. It seemed like padding to me and although the Revolution is a fascinating subject and his narrative was interesting, I wanted more of the Russian reaction. In Chapter 71, he does give us a little more insight into Catherine's response to what she called the "French poison".

I'm going to jump in here (with apologies for not having been part of the discussion until now, but I only just joined this group and have been reading like a maniac to catch up!)

I appreciated the background on the French Revolution because it put Catherine in context, helped me to appreciate her achievements all the more because of the tension she struggled with, between her enlightened ideas -- which were ALWAYS part of her, since she was a girl of fifteen -- and the realities of governing a country as large and diverse and stuck in the past as Russia.

There she was, consorting with philosophers, holding her own in conversation with the greatest thinkers of the age (and I found the personal details of her relationship with Diderot fascinating), but at the end of the day, as she said, "In your plans for reform, you are forgetting the difference between our two positions: you work only on paper which accepts anything, is smooth and flexible and offers no obstacles either to your imagination or your pen, while I, poor empress, work on human skin, which is far more sensitive and touchy." (location 6017 of 11415 in the Kindle edition)

Thanks for your insightful comments, Lisa and we are glad that you joined us. I think that indeed the French Revolution background was necessary to understand what effect it had on Catherine, and Europe in general. But I just wanted a little more Catherine and a little less France in that particular chapter. But that is probably a moot point since we see in the next chapter how she was affected by the fate of French royalty.

I think a little editing would have helped, but I was happy to return to Catherine's response to the French Revolution.

I have to admit I am fascinated by the reign of terror, and if you are a sitting monarch like Catherine, you would be terrified.

It is interesting to note that Catherine seemed unmoved by the assassination of Gustavus III of Sweden except for the fact that Sweden's troops would not be sent to assist the French royalists. But she must have felt very vulnerable as Empress as other rulers were falling.

Yes, all sitting monarchs were quaking in their boots. The British government passed laws against treason and censored books too. Wordsworth might have said, "Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive..." but George III was not real thrilled.

So true, Lisa, the revolutionary ideas was spreading fast...geographically, Catherine might have been in a better position, but I wonder with the cultural seeds she planted in Russia, she worried a little more.

I wonder if Massie didn't spend more time talking about the excesses of the French Revolution as a reference to the kind of things that could have happened in Russia if Catherine had attempted reforms and lost control. Admittedly, the French Revolution occurred under completely different conditions from those that prevailed in Russia under Catherine, but it made me wonder if Massey meant to draw a comparison. Were the Russian nobles that opposed reforms simply being protective of their rights and privileges, or were they truly concerned that Russia was not ready for real change without the possibility of revolution? Was Catherine naive to think that Russia could change? These were the kinds of questions that Massie's description of the French Revolution raised for me.

Excellent point, Greg....using the French Revolution as a comparison of what could transpire in Russia although as you noted, the political situation and tenor of the times were far different. The author had, in earlier chapters, described the Pugachev Rebellion which, although not successful, could have become a full fledged revolution under the right circumstances. The memory of that rebellion coupled with the horrors in France certainly put the Empress and the nobility in a defensive posture.

I was a little confused by the situation with Poland in these last few chapters. In the second partition of Poland, Catherine invaded Poland, they appealed to Prussia for help, Prussia refused due to an impending war on another front, so they surrendered land to Russia. But instead of taking it all for herself, Catherine gave some of the new land to Prussia. Why??

I did find the whole series of events in Poland so unfortunate. It feels like surrounding countries just slowly took bites out of the country until there was finally nothing left. I can't imagine what Poniatowski must have gone through during his entire reign. And the Polish people did not really have a home country for a generations afterward.

The final partition of Poland is a bit confusing but this is a simplified version. Prussia, under a new King signed a treaty with Poland to come to her aid in case of invasion. Catherine knew that Prussia could be enticed to ignore that treaty with the offer, by Russia, of additional lands in Poland. She was correct and Prussian joined Catherine in another dismemberment of the country.
Poland has suffered many times under foreign rule and the invasion in 1939 by Nazi Germany and Russia was the beginning of WWII in Europe.

After being treated so cruelly by her mother-in-law Empress Elizabeth regarding the raising of her son Paul, Catherine proceeds to do the same thing with Paul's son Alexander. Why do you think she repeats this rather onerous behavior when she knew the suffering that she experienced when Paul was removed from her care?

Jill wrote: "The Hermitage is a national treasure, Kathy, with some of the finest art work in the world. But it is always rather sad to see collections that have been in families for generations sold because o..."

Her art collecting orientation was fascinating to see how it evolved. She didn't profess to know much about what she was seeing but was attracted by the value that it conferred to her as a collector. Her self-described addiction to collecting seemed down to earth in a way. The girl loved her shopping, and as an empress this is what she could do! Unlike other European nobles who kept their collections strictly to themselves, she built a proper place to put it all on display. I suppose she was choosing to project an element of herself to the rest of the world, rather than selfishly keep these works squired away in her personal residences.

Joanne wrote: "I suspect the commissioning and building of "The Bronze Horseman" is a book unto itself. What a story of art, trials, and survival!"

Seriously! I am still marveling at how they moved the boulder that serves as its base. Whenever I travel around Europe particularly and you see some of these gigantic marble structures and works that were constructed in the 17th century and beyond you have to appreciate the sheer magnitude of effort it took just to move the raw materials. Fascinating!

Jill wrote: "After being treated so cruelly by her mother-in-law Empress Elizabeth regarding the raising of her son Paul, Catherine proceeds to do the same thing with Paul's son Alexander. Why do you think she ..."

This absolutely stumped me. It's as if her mothering capabilities were completely empty until she had grandchildren. I get that she was also wanting to insure succession to the throne but that does not explain her treatment of Paul. Maybe he reminded her so much of Peter that she could not bring herself to treat him any differently. Baffling.

Something that intrigues me - if Catherine would have been able to communicate once she was stricken with a probable stroke, would she have disinherited Paul in favor of Alexander? I have read somewhere that indeed she did but those at her bedside chose not to make it known. Massie doesn't mention that particular rumor and it is doubtful that it happened......but it makes one wonder what type of ruler Alexander would have been.

Enjoyed these last few chapters immensely. What would Russia be like without her great interest in the arts from the building of a world class art collection to the immense estate and magnificent palaces and gardens she had built. These things are legacies that are as enduring as that of Peter the Great. Her constant quest for new territories and the hopes and dreams of creating a dynasty that would rule for over another hundred years are remarkable. It is a shame her heirs could not have had the foresight and vision that she held for Russia. If they had maybe their would still be Tsar on the throne as there is in England today. How different our world would be if there had been no Russian Revolution in 1917. So much to be said about this great book. I will be giving it a five star rating. The only thing I wish is that maybe a chapter could have been written about the economic policies that allowed Catherine to accomplish all that she did. How did she finance the wars that gave Russia her southern warm water ports and still be able to build and maintain internal peace for the country.

Clayton wrote: "Enjoyed these last few chapters immensely. What would Russia be like without her great interest in the arts from the building of a world class art collection to the immense estate and magnificent p..."

Thanks for reading along and sharing your thoughts, Clayton. These last chapters lost me a little at first but tied up nicely at the end. We certainly got a thorough perspective on this vibrant woman. Please leave your final thoughts on the 'book as a whole' thread as well.

I too still wonder how she funded everything she did. Remarkable.

Jill wrote: "Something that intrigues me - if Catherine would have been able to communicate once she was stricken with a probable stroke, would she have disinherited Paul in favor of Alexander? I have read some..."

I wonder too. Although it seems that little stood in her way when she was determined to make something happen so why didn't she do it earlier if it was her true intent? It will have to remain a great mystery.

Greg and Jill, I was a little distracted by the French Revolution discussion but the author tried to tie it to Catherine's reaction about what was happening in Europe generally. Gives her later actions some context. She declared herself a noble through and through, which in some ways surprised me.

I don't know if she was using the possibility of disinheriting Paul as some type of threat tactic or what. Without primogeniture, she could have named Alexander at any time near the end of her life, so you are right....it remains a mystery.

Since we are at the end of the read, the following information is not included in the book and will not be a spoiler......Alexander attained the throne quicker than he thought since Tsar Paul was assassinated in 1801 by the Panin brothers.

They sure took after each other - wow.

The gore of chapter 70 got a bit too graphic for me. The guillotine used up through the 1900s was a surprise but the parading of heads, and the account of it all, made me ill.

Alisa wrote: "The gore of chapter 70 got a bit too graphic for me. The guillotine used up through the 1900s was a surprise but the parading of heads, and the account of it all, made me ill."

Why so surprised? Beheadings go on all the time in the Middle East and other parts of the world. One American not so long ago was beheaded and shown on live TV.

You're right Clayton, a better word would have been startled, or alarmed. One of those things I guess I do know but just don't like to think about.

On page 549 (chapter 71), we are told that:
"In September 1796, the first formal system of censorship during her reign was established."
It makes one wonder to what degree the tradition and pattern of censorship influenced the Communists when they came into power more than 100 years later. Perhaps we are inclined to think that censorship was brought in by the Communists in order to stamp out opposition. But it didn't start with them.

At the end of the book (chapter 73, page 572), there is an interesting insight into Catherine's view of power and rule. She was wise and clever in the way she took the pulse of the people, thought through the issues involved and ramifications of decisions, and then was able to move forward with the expectation of "blind obedience".

Lewis I like your point about censorship. While it was an instrument of control for the Communists the foundation for the use of it was certainly laid much earlier.