Gone with the Wind discussion

No, I don't think so. I think Scarlett was being coy and putting on a show for him, so he kissed her and took her to bed!

Rape is the force of sexual intercourse. We know that he didn't force her because she was happy about what happened. Things definitely started out forcefully, no doubt about that but we are not given the details to know when exactly things changed....but it is clear that they did.

All we know that was forced was a kiss. And if you read Scarlets reaction to that kiss, you can see how much she liked it. Rhett didn't force intercourse on her, he doesn't have to.

Besides, who's husband asks for permission to kiss you or sleep with you? Talk about ruining the moment lol. Although I know its different in their case because she had specifically told him earlier that she didn't want kids, meaning that she didn't want to sleep with him any longer.

Mrsbooks wrote: "Rape is the force of sexual intercourse. We know that he didn't force her because she was happy about what happened. Things definitely started out forcefully, no doubt about that but we are not gi..."

Well, if she told him in a round about way that she didn't want kids and therefore no sex, and then he made her have sex...thats rape.

Yes, that would be rape, if that were true. She did tell him she didn't want kids and therefore no sex, but the question is, did he make her have sex?

"She screamed, stifled against him and he stopped suddenly on the landing and, turning her swiftly bent over her and kissed her with a savagery and a completeness that wiped out everything from her mind... He was muttering things that she did not hear, his lips were evoking feelings never felt before. She was darkness and he was darkness and there had never been anything before this time... Suddenly she had a wild thrill such as she had never known; joy, fear, madness, excitement, surrender to arms that were to strong, lips too bruising, fate that moved too fast. For the first time in her life she had met someone stronger than she, someone she could neither bully nor break... Somehow her arms were around his neck and her lips trembling beneath his and they were going up, up into the darkness again..."(Chapter 54)

I think sometimes people can get caught up in what THEY feel would be rape if it were happening to THEM. Clearly Scarlet didn't feel that way. She was having an all out passionfest after ONE kiss! Does she have to say yes now? Does she actually have to speak those words out loud for him to know she's changed her mind? Or can she show him that with her body? Is she even allowed to change her mind?

Some people would even say this was still rape even though she changed her mind because he forced her to be turned on. Mind against body, kind of thing. She wouldn't have wanted sex had he not turned her on, against her will.

Again, the definition of rape, is forced intercourse. Forcing a kiss is not rape (would be a form of sexual assault, but not rape.) Carrying her upstairs to her bedroom, again not rape. Threatening to crush her head, again not rape.

All scary though...and yes Scarlet's thoughts reveal she's scared. However, she's also turned on by it. At some point she changes her mind about sleeping with him and it sounds like it's directly during that first kiss. She meets him head on with anger and passion.

I can think of all the times that I don't want to have sex because I'm tired but my husband does...or vice versa. Is it rape because both us of try to get the other going even though the other doesn't really want to? That's a rhetorical question...lol

I can get and understand that some people don't like the idea of rough sex, or being dominated. So if they see that it's happened, they immediately feel uncomfortable. However I look at the leading Lady. She didn't think it was rape. I would think that's a good sign that it wasn't.

But then again, I'm one of those who like it rough and I like a dominate bed partner. And it sounds like Scarlet likes it that way too. I don't hold that against her....

I would love if they had ended up together, but what mekes you crave for more of the story is the fact that Scarlett didn't get what she wants and that Rhett decided to be happy without her.

No way they got back together. I'm sure Scarlett tried probably for years. Maybe even Rhett would sympathies to some degree and throw her a bone now and then. If he didn't care about her at all he wouldn't have given her the time of day on his way out he would simply have left without a word. However if he still loved her he couldn't have left the way he did. Unlike woman, men don't love the same as woman. Our first love is always the strongest though it rarely works out and once our love is gone it doesn't come back again. Scarlett tore the love of her from Rhett's heart with great effort over many years and once it was finally gone it could never come back.

Moral of the story while there are more than one is mainly "Appreciate what you have while you have it. Whether its food in your belly, true friends, or love because nothing you "had" is worth a damn once its gone"

Mrsbooks wrote: "Yes, that would be rape, if that were true. She did tell him she didn't want kids and therefore no sex, but the question is, did he make her have sex?

"She screamed, stifled against him and he s..."

I also like it rough but if I tell my husband I don't want to have sex and he proceeds anyway, its rape. However, that happens in alot of love stories and I love them. Sometimes a little force makes it sexy. I think that was the case here. It was rape and later in the "session" she liked the sex (I'm not saying she liked being raped). Idk if this makes sense, but I have mixed emotions about that scene. I think their relationship inside and outside of the bedroom was deeply complex. That scene deeply summed up their relationship, I think. He tried to make her love him and forget Ashley. He tried to make her have a womans heart. He tried to make her love being a mother. He tried to take her lumber mill away and become dependent on him. She may have liked the attention from him but she didn't need or want it. That's kinda, to me what the sex scene represents.

Also, please don't make personal judgments about people or their sex lives based on opinions that differ from yours on a sex scene. This isn't about our personal sex lives, this is about Scarlett and Rhett. If you need to express how much you like it rough, I'm sure there are plenty of websites that can accommodate you.

John wrote: "No way they got back together. I'm sure Scarlett tried probably for years. Maybe even Rhett would sympathies to some degree and throw her a bone now and then. If he didn't care about her at all ..."

I agree with you about the over all moral. Once something has ended, its truly gone with the wind. So treasure it. The past cannot return and you cannot undo what's been done. Love big, love honest and love true. That's all you really can do.

I didn't mean to make that rhyme, I'm not that corney. That's just what came out lol.

Vanessa Eden wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "Yes, that would be rape, if that were true. She did tell him she didn't want kids and therefore no sex, but the question is, did he make her have sex?

"She screamed, stifled aga..."

I nowhere in my previous comment made a judgment on a particular person. My statement of how "I can get and understand that some people..." was directed at exactly who I said. 'Some people' and no one in particular since I do not know anyone on this thread intimately enough to make a judgment on their sex life.

Perhaps I did not make that as clear as I thought I had.

Any opinions of Scarlet and Rhett's sex life are not based upon my own sex life, but upon the impression the characters gave in the book. I also sympathize with Scarlet which is why I stated that I like it rough. If this offended anyone I apologize, that hadn't been my intent. However I don't appreciate a lecture on expressing that, especially when just before you do so, you admit to the same thing.
__________

I still have a lot of trouble with the word "rape" being used here. I know rape is quite common in romance books, I personally don't find it sexy at all. I hate those scenes.

"When I tell my husband I don't want sex and he proceeds anyway, it's rape." I agree with this. But what I'm saying is, are you allowed to change your mind?

Women are raped all the time because they start having a little fun, making out etc and then change their minds. We're entitled to do that, everyone is. It is very true that Rhett sexually assaulted Scarlet, he forces a kiss on her when she has said no. That is not rape. By definition, that is sexual assault.

If you read Scarlet's direct response to that kiss, she likes it! So my question is, is Scarlet allowed to change her mind? Is she allowed to decide that "Yes, I do want sex."

Scarlet's response to being kissed:
"She screamed, stifled against him and he stopped suddenly on the landing and, turning her swiftly bent over her and kissed her with a savagery and a completeness that wiped out everything from her mind... He was muttering things that she did not hear, his lips were evoking feelings never felt before. She was darkness and he was darkness and there had never been anything before this time... Suddenly she had a wild thrill such as she had never known; joy, fear, madness, excitement, surrender to arms that were to strong, lips too bruising, fate that moved too fast. For the first time in her life she had met someone stronger than she, someone she could neither bully nor break... Somehow her arms were around his neck and her lips trembling beneath his and they were going up, up into the darkness again..."(Chapter 54)

Although true, it doesn't say whether she actually did change her mind. She could be feeling all that but still say NO. The book does not give us those details. What it does give us though, is Scarlet in the morning after her supposed rape. I think everyone remembers Scarlet's mood the next morning...

John wrote: "No way they got back together. I'm sure Scarlett tried probably for years. Maybe even Rhett would sympathies to some degree and throw her a bone now and then. If he didn't care about her at all ..."

I agree with your assessment. I think that's how Mitchell meant it to end. Like everything else in the story their love was gone with the wind.

I do think though, if these were real characters that they did have a chance of getting back together. Oh not for years and years though. Rhett and Scarlet would have stayed married, he would have come around often enough to keep gossip down (as he says in the book). I don't know, I think time does help heal wounds and had Scarlet continued to mature (maybe she wouldn't have though, but if she had) I think Rhett's love could have come back.

But alas, that's not obviously where the writer intended to go or she would have.

Mrsbooks wrote: "John wrote: "No way they got back together. I'm sure Scarlett tried probably for years. Maybe even Rhett would sympathies to some degree and throw her a bone now and then. If he didn't care abou..."

Ya know, you touched on a great point...when Scarlett matured...or if she would have at all...

If I am not mistaken (and I very well could be, its been years sense I read GWTW) it began when she was 16. It ended when she was approximately 21 or 22...give or take. I cannot recall. Anyway, she was very, very young to have 'a womans heart' as Rhett said, or to really understand what love of al types meant. Too young to be a mother (mentally speaking). She went through a great deal for a girl her age. She wasn't mature enough to be married, much less three times and a widow twice over.
I wonder if, as she got older and life became complicated, if she 'loved' Ashley because he made her feel like she did when she was care free?
I wonder if because of al the great trauma she endured in a short span of time(4-6 yrs) may have done damage that cannot be undone? Could it have dwarfed her emotionally/psychologically? I wonder if she ever could mature?
Even if she did later mature, it was sad and unfair that she had to meet the love of her life and have children before she was mature enough to realize what they meant to her.
I also can't help but think that Rhett knew how immature she was and yet he demanded her to play a role she was not emotionally ready to play. I think he did understand all of that, but he hoped she would grow and change...but then again, how immature was that for a man of his age?

Am I wrong here? Does anyone else feel that way about Scarlett and Rhett?

I'm kinda just thinking aloud. Because I started thinking about how mature I was at her age, I wasn't really ready to be married until I was 26 and I had been married for 4years by that time. I was too young at 22, to know what marriage and true love meant. I was just lucky I am married to the right man for me. I just wondered if perhaps her life was a mess because she was put in situations she was not ready to handle. Her life to me, was an unfair one.

Did anyone read Rhett Butler's People? It's not so much a sequel as the original story, seen from Rhett's perspective. I liked it.
As for Rhett and Scarlett, I think they were done as a couple. I think they stayed in each other's lives, but there was too much misunderstanding and hurt on both sides for them to ever be lovers again.

Ann wrote: "Did anyone read Rhett Butler's People? It's not so much a sequel as the original story, seen from Rhett's perspective. I liked it.
As for Rhett and Scarlett, I think they were done as a couple. I t..."

I haven't read Rhett Butlers People but I want to so bad!

Someone did write a sequel, called Scarlett. I've forgotten the author, but the style was very similar. Read it years ago and liked it... not sure if I would still.

Sally Atwell wrote: "A sequel was written, but not by Margaret Mitchell."

Yes, and it was awful.

Mrsbooks wrote: "Forbidden wrote: "I dont understand people who think Scarlett has all the faults for the end of the relantionship! Like, he as an abusive husband, remember that! In fact, the Rhett of real life bea..."

I agree.

John wrote: "I think Rhett was done with her. (period) "

YEP! This is the point of the book. They would never have gotten back together! Rhett was DONE!

Well, there IS a sequel written by Alexandra Ripley named "Scarlett" in which, after many plot twists and unecessary events for the sake of the drama only, Rhett and Scarlett end up reunited and with a new child. I don't recommend it though, I beleive it was NOT respectul to the original characters neither Mitchell's narrative style.

Linda wrote: "My opinion changes every time I read the book, sometimes she gets him back next time she doesnt. Whatever i imagine in now way does it match that awful pretence of a sequel (Scarlet) I was so anno..."

Agreed. I think it was the perfect ending. Scarlett finally has to actually live with the consequences of her actions.

And, Scarlett (as a faux sequel) was atrocious.

I think that Scarlett would have tried, real hard - she was a hard-head! But i don´t think that Rhett would have gone back to her - too much damage was done. already. And the final drop to that marriage was Bonnie´s death.

But that is the beauty of an open-end story...one can picture what they want.

Scarlett would have tried, no doubt about it. But it would have been an idea she was after...just like ashley! By the end, Rhett was but a mere caricature of his former self.

Bonnie's death killed the fire in him. The need to keep Scarlett safe and wanting to take care of her was maybe irrelevant for a man in grief. She was still the younger version of him (and maybe better!) but he no longer was the same Rhett.

And personally? I feel she deserves a better challenge and I never cared for Rhett much at all....Ashley is a wimp but Rhett's a constant pain in the ass!

Rhett married me and lived happily ever after. ;) A girl can dream.

I don't think there was a future for the two of them together and having one was , I feel, not the point of the story. I feel that in the sequel we would have seen mostly the maturity of Scarlett and her realizing she didn't need anyone to be happy. She would live at Tara and find fulfillment and joy in who she had become and what she had accomplished. I believe she would look back at her time with Rhett in adoration because if not for having and losing him she would have never lived up to her full potential.

I read the first book over 40 years ago and saw the movie as well (who hasn't?) Loved it.

Read sequel 'Scarlett' and loved it. However I would have liked it far more had the author included more of the life and times of Rhett Butler. He was such a colorful character that had I written 'Scarlett' I would have covered his life parallel to the life of Scarlett. And I would have had him always comparing the women in his life to her and hating himself for doing so. Seems to me that would have been the better way to proceed with this story.

'Scarlett' truly gave me a lot of insight into the social scene and customs of the period both here and in Ireland. In 'Scarlett' she finally grows up and becomes the woman she was meant to be. I really enjoyed the sequel.

i dont think they would ever get back. when she finally lets Ashley go is when he dies. then she would cry at his grave. eye roll. she is so pathetic.

Gaele wrote: "I think, if you look at any of the bits attached to Margaret Mitchell - she had no intent to reunite Scarlett and Rhett. Honestly - from little bits left over - I don't even think she liked Scarle..."

REgarding only having one story in her...you do know that she was hit by a car crossing the street, right? So maybe she was a one hit wonder but maybe not. Although imagine she would have been hard pressed to write anything to compare with GWTW just as I imagine all future writings of J.K. Rowling will always be compared to the success of Harry Potter.

In answer to the original question: much as I would love to imagine a happily ever after for them, together, I can't. I think Gerald's scenario is the most plausible and true to the characters. Rhett was too hurt to ever allow himself to go back, no matter how deeply he yearned. I doubt he ever loved anyone again, that he fully assumed the outward character he'd shown the world and never allowed himself to feel deeply about anyone again.

Now, the "rape" business. As a paralegal/investigator I've worked way too many rape cases, real ones and Cry Rape cases, and I find the promiscuous use of the term "rape" disturbing, not only for the men accused falsely but even more so for the REAL victims of REAL rape. Our unhealthy cultural obsession with throwing the R word around denigrates their very real and harrowing experiences.

*steps down from soapbox*

While their paths would likely have crossed again, it's hard to imagine the relationship becoming one in which they grew old together, as each was flawed in such a way as to render them truly incompatible.

I think it ended the way it should have. Am I the only one that doesn't like Rhett? He helped her to become what she was in the end. He knew she was in love with another man when he asked her to marry him. Why should he leave her when she actually told him how she felt. Maybe he's the one that likes the chase and wasn't happy until he conquered Scarlett.

I read the Alexandra Ripley sequel to GWTW when it came out in the early nineties. They did get back together in that, although I often wonder about these sequels written by other authors - maybe the originals should be left alone for the reader's own imagination to work out the ending they'd like for themselves?

it was...and it was AWFUL....I think the author was Alexandria Ripley...most of it took place in Ireland...Awful, awful awful

Linda wrote: "My opinion changes every time I read the book, sometimes she gets him back next time she doesnt. Whatever i imagine in now way does it match that awful pretence of a sequel (Scarlet) I was so anno..."
Me too, but lately, since my last read-through, I think they don't ever get back together. I don't think she deserved him, and she had to have some accountability for her actions. Maybe I'm being mean right now! But, at least in the Scarlett (debacle sequel) she came full circle and even had to suffer some more before getting Rhett back.

My mother (age 85) says she heard Margaret Mitchell interviewed and she claimed that she had planned to keep writing until Rhett and Scarlet were together, but the publishers said the book was too fat, and she needed to stop writing where she was at.

No idea if that's true.

I agree that Rhett was done. He did his best to love a cold woman and in the end he was over it. I have read the other books written years later and as much as I love them, I dont believe that is what Mrs. Mitchell had in mind.

Scarlet has changed many times to me since I started this book at an early age. Her entire personailty takes on a who meaning everytime I do pick it up. But as for Rhett, Hes never changed. He had enough, and I frankly dont blame him. My top favorite read though.

I think that Rhett never stopped loving Scarlett but she had hurt him so he left. He had always had his other women but her affair with Ashely was all in her mind, which was unacceptable. When she finally saw how unrealistic it was, Rhett left. However, I think that in time he may have seen that she had changed and may have come back...because there was no other love to equal that for him. I won't even mention the other books that have cropped up. I felt that the sequel movie was miscast so that didn't help the issue. Back in the day, I felt that Delta Burke was the perfect choice and maybe someone like Lee Horsely. An English cast in the original movie did work, somehow, but who could possibly fill the shoes of Vivian and Clarke? Without a really, really good script any sequel would fall flat but it is a great story and I would have loved to see them reunite, somehow.

When I read Gone with the Wind, I was surprised by how much it was not a romance. Most of the book is a political treatise or social commentary. Unlike in the movie, romance in the book really took a back seat to the horrors of war and the injustices of the reconstruction.

I can't imagine a sequel because Margaret Mitchell's ending was realistic.

Scarlett brutalized Rhett hard for years. He had had enough. Maybe they'd have had an affair at some point later, but she wouldn't have changed his mind long term.

The sequel made me sorry that I had eyes and an understanding of the English language. How utterly awful.

Scarlett brutalized Rhett's hard for years. ..."

Thanks. You made me choke on my coffee :D

Yeah, just saw that :) And fixed it!

scarlett didn't know how rhett loved her and rhett is responsible for.
I think rhett and scarlett must be together but I dont like Riply sequel!

Much as one loves Scarlett, she's a spoiled brat. I like to think that Rhett would be smart enough to stay far away, although I think he really loves her.

Rhett has a weakness for his vices. Maybe they would've ended up together :)

I would have loved to see them get back together, but I just can't quite believe it.

Rhett changes a Lot over the course of the novel. He matures as a person, and gains greater depth than I could ever see Scarlett gaining. His initial attraction to Scarlett, (because "we're both scoundrels"), doesn't count for much any more because he is no longer a true scoundrel.

By the end of the book, he's lost a lot of his romanticism. He's lost his Bonnie.

Scarlett, at the end, gains the understanding that she Ought to have liked him all along, but she is no longer the person who can reach him. She lacks the depth that would really interest a person like Rhett has become. And... she's kind of a one-note guitar as far as going for men goes. And Rhett knows all her tricks. I'd see him just being annoyed by her attempts to get him.

On the other hand... he Does have the depth to understand that he's not a particularly attractive person at this point in his life. And her efforts might also be a little flattering. But I think any kind of "getting together" would probably be mere nostalgia for him. And temporary.

Quillracer wrote: "I held off commenting on this thread as long as possible, but can't anymore.
The answer is only if Rhett was as dumb as a Tic-Tac."

K.S. wrote: "I think they would have met again several years later, and got together only to fall out again over the years until they were both old, when they could reminisce over the old days and finally agree..."


MM was asked what became of these "beautiful lovers", she said, that probably Rhett may have found someone else who was less difficult...Thank God for that, actually one viewer said, that Scarlett was her hero! Sad, very sad!

Scarlett had heroic qualities. Unfortunately, she was also spoiled and selfish. If she'd had no redeeming qualities at all, the book never would have been one of the best-selling novels of all time. People identified with her, especially during World War II when, for quite a while, the Axis power held the advantage. Sometimes people like Scarlett can be held up as role models for what it takes to survive. Doesn't mean you want to be married to them.

I agree, that literature must have characters with some flaws, but she lusts after another woman's husband, she wishes, that Mel would die and she would be in her place, she steals her sister's man, she is completely indifferent to her children, not nice to others, during the war, she is disappointed, that men in hospital are not flirty with her and she wants to be loved....her opinions are appalling...even after finishing the book I never thought, that she learnt, if, it would be very little...she would be still the same person...apart from some brief moments of war it is cheesy romance, have you read Lamb in his Bosom? Another Pulitzer Prize winner and apparently MM favourite book, Cean is strong and beautiful character...

I personally find it a bit easy to forgive a lot of Scarlets flaws. The book starts with her being 16. She's a child making adult decisions through most of the book. And what's worse is the actual adults allow her because they don't want to make these tough decisions themselves.

Its true by the end of the book she's barely learned anything. I think she's what? 26? I actually thought the ending of the book marked Scarlets time to grow up. I think there was a lesson there with Rhett's leaving and her finally realizing what was really in her heart the whole time.

They say true love always finds a way. A sequel, where Rhett and Scarlett's paths cross again, under a different set of unique circumstances post Civil War/Reconstruction could have presented them an opportunity to reignite things, but Margaret Mitchell's ending is fitting enough...what's that old saying, how does it go, something to the effect of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".

You are right, she is young and dreadful times were coming, but as the story progressed, I started to dislike her, her attitude , her opinions, the way she treated her children (I'm mother) and I would never ever do it, her children actually liked Melanie more, no, just no...of course she worked hard, but it was hard for everyone, she is not exception...
The other thing is I don't like their relationship and the way is described, it was like MM wanted to create this passionate relationship with all snapping and I hardly can believe, that there was not time, when they would communicate, especially in the end after their daughter died,...I just don't like this type of hero/heroine, yes I like them strong, but not that manipulative, it's not my favourite...I honestly think Scarlett would get married plenty of times after Rhett, she was saying in the end, that she will think about this tommorrow, but each time, when she said that previously, she didn't really mean it

No way. Even a dummy like Rhett is capable of learning.