The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Dear friends, please discuss the first five chapters of the novel below.

Here is the gist of my observations and questions for this week.

I definitely experienced certain trepidations when I started reading the novel because it is not only a novel I have not read. It is also the novel that has existed merely as a title in my head. So bear with me if I stumble and struggle through the discussion of the book.

Well, my edition starts with the list of characters, and I read first three or four names and understood that the list contains confusing spoilers, so I immediately moved on to the next chapter. It is somewhat an unusual chapter. As far as I know, Dickens usually plunges us into the action (Oliver Twist, Nicholas Nickleby, Old Curiosity Shop). This chapter, on the contrary, is very atmospheric and descriptive. It starts with the wonderful description of the Maypole – it is both haunting and ironic at the same time. So what do you think about this description? Why is this chapter the longest so far? Do you think Dickens is convincing enough when he portrays the gloomy image of the stranger?

It is also interesting to see the Gothic elements in the story (the Haredale’s murder mystery) and how the events start twisting around this sad and quite spooky story.

I am quite befuddled to find out that the main character of the story so far is Gabriel Varden, a locksmith with the big heart, a lovely daughter, and an estranged wife. Personally, I think it will be interesting to observe how Dickens will deal with the family conflict.

And surely the author’s genius is up and sparkling again in his portrait/introduction of Simon Tappertit (what a name!) His description is my favorite part of the book at this stage. Dickens is teasing and laughing at his character – I can hear his roaring laughter every time I re-read the passage. His satirical talent is at his best, and it dazzles with humor. “He was in years just twenty, in his looks much older, and in conceit at least two hundred” Bravo, Dickens! This is the most inventive chastity of human vanity!

And we also meet poor and feeble-minded Barnaby. And look how supportive Mr. Varden is. He says, ‘To my mind, he grows wiser every day’, and he keeps reiterating the same idea several times.

Finally, chapter 5 ends with an emotional cliff-hanger. And the mysterious and evil stranger is haunting us in the final lines of this chapter. What could possibly connect him and Mrs. Barnaby? And why was she scared to death? So many dangling and unanswered questions. Please, share your ideas.

Overall, these chapters have exceeded my expectations. I am discovering a new side of Dickens. It is a murder mystery, a story of an emotional struggle for Mrs. Rudge, and, in addition, a certain intangible feeling of darkness permeates these chapters. So many reasons to keep reading.

Zulfiya wrote: "As far as I know, Dickens usually plunges us into the action (Oliver Twist, Nicholas Nickleby, Old Curiosity Shop). This chapter, on the contrary, is very atmospheric and descriptive. ..."

Zulfiya, with regards to how the beginning of the book feels, I agree with you completely. To me it did not really feel like a Dickens .... but this makes it also more interesting. In all of the previous novels we got introduced to the main character very quickly, but here the character giving the novel its name is only showing up very briefly in those first chapters and as you said the description of a building and area is in the foreground.

Besides the description of the Maypole and the stranger, the Haredale murder mystery was in my opinion the major focus of the first chapter and maybe the indication of the topic the whole novel could surround somehow. I was almost wondering whether the stranger was the murdered Haredale, but assuming that the corpse was properly identifiable, this might be a stupid thought, though it could explain Mrs. Rudge's concern, maybe he is the possible murderer or her husband, who - now that I am rereading that paragraph was actually not identifiable by his corpse, but only by his clothes, a watch and a ring ???.... (I think here the Sherlock Holmes readings might lead my thoughts in certain directions automatically.)

In most of Dickens's novels we have read so far the evil characters were much more developed than the good ones, even than the actual main characters.
So my question is at this point a little what made him choose Barnaby Rudge to become the novel's title. What we learn of him is only that he is somehow mentally impaired and that his father had been murdered before he was even born. However, we will probably have to move on and see how it all develops to answer this question. It was definitely nice to learn about Mr. Varden's opinion of Barnaby. Maybe he will be a really evolving main character unlike some of the other we have encountered in the previous novels.

Simon Tappertit and his description are just hilarious and I also liked the indirect description of him through Mr. Varden's thoughts.

I do not know much about this novel, so am a real novice here, but I know that it focuses on the times of the Gordon riots, which was an anti-Catholic movement around 1780.
At least one allusion to this is Mrs. Varden's request of the Protestant Manual - according to my annotations "The Protestant Manual of Christian Devotions, composed of instructions, offices, and forms of prayer, in a plain, rational and scriptural method, etc.".
I thought I had found another one in the description of the parish clerk Solomon, but I could not find that anymore.

As you said, Zulfiya, it is a new side of Dickens (I must admit I have read "A Tale of Two Cities" - so to read a novel by Dickens of the genre "historical fiction" is not completely new to me, but after our previous reads, it is definitely a new and also exciting side, esp. with the murder mystery as a focal topic).
I am already looking forward to the next chapters. We have briefly met a lot of characters (John and Joe Willet, Solomon Daisy, Gabriel Varden with wife and daughter, the Haredales, the Rudges, the mysterious stranger) directly or indirectly and it will be interesting to see whether they stay in the novel (unlike Fred in The Old Curiosity Shop). ;-)

One further comment from my side. I was wondering whether we will get involved in a little love triangle here as well, as Dolly Varden seems to like Joe Willet and Simon Tappertit seems to have a real crush on Dolly and to be jealous of Joe. :-)

BTW, which editions are you using? I have the Penguin Classics edition, which also contains a lot of background information and annotations. I deliberately did not read the introduction as it might have spoilers, but it might be interesting - at least further into the novel - to get some information from there. Maybe there are other editions with more information, too.

At the end of the Old Curiosity Shop it was quite enlightening to get that information, when we were discussing the posssible parents of the Marchioness.

Hedi wrote: "BTW, which editions are you using? I have the Penguin Classics edition, which also contains a lot of background information and annotations. I deliberately did not read the introduction as it might..."

I have the Barnes & Noble Classics edition. They don't have any type of Editor's Preface, but they do interestingly have a preface from Dickens about his real life falcons as background to the falcons in the book. It's rather amusing.

Zulfiya - don't know where to put this.

You might want to talk to Silver about archiving the threads that Christopher set up on The Old Curiosity Shop.

Because he is a moderator, his threads somehow are staying at the top rather than moving down because no one is posting in them.

So the only Barnaby Rudge thread that will show on the home page will be the current one. That will be a pain for people who get behind. Plus, we aren't doing the Old Curiosity Shop anymore so it will be confusing for new people.

Unfortunately, Christopher doesn't come on very much anymore so if you wait for him to show up again to resolve the issue, you might be waiting quite some time. ;) But Silver s/b/a to archive them.

Lynnm wrote: "Zulfiya - don't know where to put this.

You might want to talk to Silver about archiving the threads that Christopher set up on The Old Curiosity Shop.

Because he is a moderator, his threads some..."

...and somehow Barnaby Rudge is not showing under "currently reading"... :-(
Is that also something only a moderator can change?

Hedi wrote: "...and somehow Barnaby Rudge is not showing under "currently reading"... :-(
Is that also something only a moderator can change?"

I looked and that appears to be the case. Which makes sense.

Poor Zulfiya - giving her two tasks to do on day one. :-)

:-) I am going to contact Silver and I will CC the message to Chris. Hopefully, they will archive the older ones or rearrange them.

As far as the 'Current Reading' status is concerned, BR was there, but then Faust has won the nomination, and the project read has been demoted:-)

I wonder what you thought of the preface? The discussion of the Raven seemed very tangential but also entertaining! It seems somewhat out of place but maybe there is foreshadowing for the book.

I see the changes. Yeay! Good job, Zulfiya and Silver!

Christopher wrote: "I wonder what you thought of the preface? The discussion of the Raven seemed very tangential but also entertaining! It seems somewhat out of place but maybe there is foreshadowing for the book."

It was really interesting...and quite amusing. But it does seem out of place. We'll have to see as we move through the book whether or not it has anything to do with the narrative. Or Dickens just felt like sharing his ravens stories with us. ;)

Lynnm wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I wonder what you thought of the preface? The discussion of the Raven seemed very tangential but also entertaining! It seems somewhat out of place but maybe there is foreshadowi..."

I read some background articles. It does have some repercussions for the world literature. And I am sure the raven will still feature in the novel. As far as I know, the novel was published not in installments but as a whole book, so Dickens knew that ravens will be important. Or at least I hope so.:-)

Christopher wrote: "I wonder what you thought of the preface? The discussion of the Raven seemed very tangential but also entertaining! It seems somewhat out of place but maybe there is foreshadowing for the book."

Interesting, I was actually wondering what you were all talking about, as my preface, which is from 1841, did not mention a raven, but in the back of my edition I have just found an Appendix III: Preface to the Cheap Edition (1849), which mentions a raven. So I will read that, too.

Zulfiya wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I wonder what you thought of the preface? The discussion of the Raven seemed very tangential but also entertaining! It seems somewhat out of place but maybe there ..."

Barnaby Rudge was actually published first in Dickens's weekly journal "Master Humphrey's Clock, but I do not know whether it was already completely finished as a novel when being published there. I will try to investigate that a little.

Hedi wrote: "Zulfiya wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I wonder what you thought of the preface? The discussion of the Raven seemed very tangential but also entertaining! It seems somewhat out of place ..."

Oops! Sorry for misleading you.

Zulfiya wrote: ":-) I am going to contact Silver and I will CC the message to Chris. Hopefully, they will archive the older ones or rearrange them.

As far as the 'Current Reading' status is concerned, BR was th..."

Thanks, Zulfiya. It is a little bit of a pity that you have to take care of all the administrative work, too, due to the moderators not being involved that much lately. It seems quite time-consuming. So thanks again for doing all of this.

Zulfiya wrote: "Hedi wrote: "Zulfiya wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I wonder what you thought of the preface? The discussion of the Raven seemed very tangential but also entertaining! It seems somewhat ..."

no problem at all ... at least I found it and do not have to think that I am too stupid to find a raven's story in 1,5 pages. :-) and it shows the differences in editions :-)

The tone of this section is definitely gothic. If there were cars instead of carriages, it would be "noir" - most scenes are at night and in storm. Dickens even talks about how weather mirrors our feelings.

It seemed at the beginning that we were way out in the country but it turns out we're not that far from London. Still in a very Dickensian way there are a limited number of characters who cross each others' paths.

It will be interesting to see what Dickens does with Barnaby, the "feeble-mnded" character, another example of the weird as we saw in Old Curiosity Shop. Gabriel is a bit like Mr Pickwick or one of the kindly old gents in the other Dickens works we've read, basically kind and generous but enjoys a good meal and a drink as well.

So, apparently I have the "Cheap Edition" with the Raven story. That's fine, it was a very interesting tale.

Robin wrote: "The tone of this section is definitely gothic. If there were cars instead of carriages, it would be "noir" - most scenes are at night and in storm. Dickens even talks about how weather mirrors our ..."

A nice observation about weather mirroring the feelings. 'It was a dark and stormy night' is the phrase that was on my mind when I was reading these opening chapters. And yes, Gabriel is a tad formulaic, but there is a potential familial tension between him and his wife or whoever she is - his wife, his mother, his widowed sister-in-law:-)

Christopher wrote: "So, apparently I have the "Cheap Edition" with the Raven story. That's fine, it was a very interesting tale."

"Cheap editions" as well as annotated editions and vintage editions are all equally good for a Dickens project! We are literarily egalitarian:-)

Hedi wrote: "Zulfiya wrote: "As far as I know, Dickens usually plunges us into the action (Oliver Twist, Nicholas Nickleby, Old Curiosity Shop). This chapter, on the contrary, is very atmospheric and descriptiv..."

Hedi, excellent observations as usual!

Zulfiya wrote: "Christopher wrote: "So, apparently I have the "Cheap Edition" with the Raven story. That's fine, it was a very interesting tale."

"Cheap editions" as well as annotated editions and vintage edition..."

I'm reading the Oxford Illustrated Dickens from my local library (they were about to toss it for water damage but I asked if I could sign it out instead). There are some great illustrations by George Cattermole and Hablot K. Browne ("Phiz") (which sound like proper Dickensian names) including a drawing of the Maypole which makes it appear far grander than in the description. I had skipped the author's preface (from 1868) but went back to check and it is indeed about a raven and a rather sad story about a destitute woman.

As to the story itself, once again I found myself having a bit of trouble keeping everyone straight and needed the occasional reread. As with TOCS there is a mysterious backstory to keep us guessing. I was impressed with Joe-standing up to his rather insufferable father and his father's cronies, and look forward to meeting more of Gabriel Varden and his household.

I am quite befuddled to find out that the main character of the story so far is Gabriel Varden, a locksmith with the big heart, a lovely daughter, and an estranged wife. Personally, I think it will be interesting to observe how Dickens will deal with the family conflict. "

According to the introduction from my edition, Dickens original title for the novel was "Gabriel Vardon, the Locksmith of London." He re-worked the novel and changed the title before it was published.

So far, I'm enjoying "Barnaby." The first chapters display Dickens considerable gifts at descriptive writing and the combination of humor, sentiment and horror that is so unique to his fictional world.

It's hard to tell five chapters in, but it does seem like Dickens is trying to be a "serious" novelist in Barnaby Rudge. It will be intriguing to see how this work fits in with his growth as a novelist. Dickens is one of the rare writers whose novels improved as he grew older.

The different style of the novel may be because it was Dickens' first attempt at an historical novel, in emulation of the popular works of Sir Walter Scott. Here is a bit of analysis which might throw some light on the plot:-

'An analysis of how Charles Dickens portrays central characters and events of the 1780 Gordon Riots in his novel Barnaby Rudge:

The Gordon Riots emerged out of a large anti-Catholic protest which took place in London on 2 June 1780. They are named after Lord George Gordon, the parliamentary peer and head of the Protestant Association who orchestrated the initial protest, and who plays a prominent role in the narrative of Barnaby Rudge. By the 1800s the riots were still remembered and were often referenced in debates on politics and reform, therefore Dickens regarded them as material relevant to his own time.

Barnaby Rudge is Dickens's fifth novel and was initially serialized in 1841 in his short-lived periodical Master Humphrey's Clock. It was published in volume form in December of that year along with The Old Curiosity Shop. In choosing to set his narrative in the past, Dickens sought to emulate the celebrated Scottish novelist Sir Walter Scott (1771-1832), whose fictional reworkings of major historical events had done much to encourage the critical acceptance of the novel form. The structure of Barnaby Rudge is reminiscent of several of Scott's narratives in the way that the story begins by focusing on a number of small domestic groups before panning out to recount these characters' experiences within a major historical event.

Dickens's Characters and Their Real-life Counterparts:

There are some intriguing differences between the real-life Lord George and the character from Barnaby Rudge. Dickens's Gordon is an idealist who is easily influenced by his secretary Gashford. The omission of the historic Lord's political views reveals much about the author's own interpretation of the riots. Lord George only intended to present his petition for the repeal of the Catholic Relief Act of 1778 if 20,000 or more people joined the protest. It is estimated that around 50,000 turned up. Once the subsequent riots had been subdued Lord George was arrested on a treason charge and imprisoned in the Tower of London, as Dickens's narrative relates. The authorities couldn't prove the Lord's guilt however and he was later acquitted. He died in 1793.

Although Lord George's secretary in Barnaby Rudge, the sycophantic and conspiratorial Gashford, is a fictional character, Dickens drew on real-life in his creation, looking to the figure of Robert Watson (1746-1838) for inspiration. It is debatable whether Watson was ever Lord George's secretary although he was his biographer.(view spoiler)[In the novel Gashford instigates the rioters to burn down the house of Geoffrey Haredale, a prominent Catholic who witnessed the rioters in action and has acted against them. (hide spoiler)] During the actual Gordon Riots, the houses of several Catholic families were attacked.(view spoiler)[ Watson committed suicide in 1838 by strangling himself, a telling parallel with Gashford, who,in the final chapter of Barnaby Rudge, is revealed to have poisoned himself.

The obnoxious figure of Ned Dennis is modelled on an actual 18th century hangman called Edward Dennis. A subtle indication of Dennis having a real-life counterpart is disclosed when the fictional hangman relates the story of Mary Jones, of whom he claimed to have "worked off for taking a piece of cloth off the counter of a shop in Ludgate-hill. Mary Jones was a young woman hanged at Tyburn in 1771 by Edward Dennis. (view spoiler)[While the fictional Dennis is executed for his crimes, Edward Dennis was actually let off even though he participated in the rioting. (hide spoiler)]

The routes Dickens describes the crowd taking correspond with the actual directions they took towards Parliament on that eventful day in 1780. The section where Lord George periodically addresses the assembled crowd on proceedings in the House of Commons also closely follows the actual course of events, as do details of the restive throng's assaults on MPs. The exchange between Lord George and General Conway is based on the latter's actual words. Lord George's petition was dismissed by a vote of 192 to 6, an outcome which undoubtedly contributed to the subsequent rioting, which began on that very day. In the novel Dickens's third-person narrator describes Gordon's crowd as being "composed for the most part of the very scum and refuse of London". Whether these are the author's own sentiments is open to debate, although he blames the abundance of such mindlessly immoral individuals on bad laws, prisons, and police forces - subjects he himself had a longstanding interest in. (hide spoiler)]

The devastation of the riots is captured in a scene where the inebriated rioters drink spirits from the gutters.(view spoiler)[ Dickens describes how the destruction of a vintner's house had caused the gutters of the street to run "with scorching spirit; which, being dammed up by busy hands, overflowed the road and pavement, and formed a great pool, in which the people dropped down dead by dozens". (hide spoiler)] This striking scene is based on an actual event when a distillery in Holborn burnt down killing many people.

London was in chaos during the Gordon Riots and once they were finally put down, the authorities were keen to prevent future similar outbreaks. They believed that this would be ensured by making an example of the troublemakers. As with the fates of Hugh and Dennis in Dickens's novel, the principal rioters were hanged. 25 people were publicly executed around London in July of 1780.'

Source: Charles Dickens Barnaby Rudge ed. Clive Hurst OUP 2003.

Robin wrote: "The tone of this section is definitely gothic. If there were cars instead of carriages, it would be "noir" - most scenes are at night and in storm. Dickens even talks about how weather mirrors our ..."

That is a very good point, Robin. I had forgotten about that, but remember thinking about that explicitly when I read it, esp. as I sometimes compare the weather with a mirror of my mood myself.

And something that seemed new to me compared to the previous reads is that Dickens here actually puts the sound of a machine into letters. I cannot remember having read anything like "Whirr-r-r-r-r-r" before. And it also mirrors the "heated spirit"/ mood of the person who operates the machine.

Christopher wrote: "So, apparently I have the "Cheap Edition" with the Raven story. That's fine, it was a very interesting tale."

Sorry, Christopher, "Cheap Edition" somehow seems to have a negative touch. ;-) I wonder whether those publications were really separated in a high class version and a cheap one in the 19th century, maybe a little like the special edition in linen with golden letters vs. the cheap paperback version or free ebook version nowadays.

MadgeUK wrote: "The different style of the novel may be because it was Dickens' first attempt at an historical novel, in emulation of the popular works of Sir Walter Scott. Here is a bit of analysis which might th..."

Thanks MadgeUK, the Gordon Riots are completely new to me.

Lynnm wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I wonder what you thought of the preface? The discussion of the Raven seemed very tangential but also entertaining! It seems somewhat out of place but maybe there is foreshadowi..."

I have just read my appendix ;-) and had the feeling that it could be a foreshadowing of things that occur in the novel. Maybe it foreshadows/ represents (the development of) some characters we will encounter. However, it is too early to tell, as you said as well, Lynnm.

Zulfiya wrote: "Hedi wrote: "Zulfiya wrote: "As far as I know, Dickens usually plunges us into the action (Oliver Twist, Nicholas Nickleby, Old Curiosity Shop). This chapter, on the contrary, is very atmospheric a..."

Thanks, Zulfiya, just some humble impressions from my side. I am actually quite excited about the read (do not know why, maybe just my current mood), and maybe talking/ posting too much... So I hope that is ok with you all.

This is the pub which the Maypole is supposedly based on, which was purchased in 2010 by the Apprentice tycoon Sir Alan Sugar:-

http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news...

MadgeUK wrote: "This is the pub which the Maypole is supposedly based on, which was purchased in 2010 by the Apprentice tycoon Sir Alan Sugar:-..."

Thanks a lot for all the information, Madge.

Interestingly the "real" Maypole looks a little different to the one that the illustration shows in my copy.
Frances, I think I have the same illustrations you have, in which the Maypole looks rather like a manor house than an inn.

For those of you who might not have any illustrations and would like to see them I have just discovered an online version of BR as a "Master Humphrey's Clock's" version.

http://www.archive.org/stream/erhumph...

Thanks Hedi - a nice supplement to my unillustrated Kindle!

I expect a lot has been done to the King's Head in 160 years:)

MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks Hedi - a nice supplement to my unillustrated Kindle!

I expect a lot has been done to the King's Head in 160 years:)"

Yes, you are right, Madge, that is a long time ;-)

An excellent discussion, everybody! We are in a good company! MagdeUK, Hedi, thank you for sharing useful links!

Hedi, I am bubbling with ideas as well.

In chapter 2, I find what may be the first account of Road Rage in the literature of the period. I myself have paused in the roadway, as our friend the locksmith did, and wondered what sort of crazy madman would do 'that'! I am really enjoying the story, ready to start Ch 6, and thinking our reading schedule may be too slow. I did not expect to enjoy this novel so much!

Christopher, I love the road rage comparison! The day/night scenes seem to correlate to the mood and action like the weather. At night we encounters the darker characters and in the morning we meet the lighter ones. At least they seem to be so far. I am enjoying this book and discussion immensely.

Christopher and Donna, the road rage and the rage of the weather around them were so symbolic and emotionally tumultuous; it is as if Gabriel was in contact with the bad guy and the weather became tempestuous! I am enjoying the novel and the discussion. So far, it is indeed an underrated novel! It has a much better premise than the other novels we read as a part of the Dickens project!

Do you think that the name Gabriel has any significance? It carries a lot of symbolism:-

http://www.luckymojo.com/archangelgab...

I did think it was interesting that the book originally was named for Gabriel and up to this point, he is the main character. In fact, Dickens calls Barnaby an 'idiot' in the text. I am having trouble predicting how he will rise to become the main character, or one worthy of the title.

I thought that about the title as well, Christopher, especially now that I know what the title was originally supposed to be. We might just have to be patient and see how it continues.
At the end of the OCS, we had a very insightful discussion about the title and its possible meaning for the novel.

I think we need to look out for references to angels, the heavens, stars etc. They may be foreshadowing something....

MadgeUK wrote: "I think we need to look out for references to angels, the heavens, stars etc. They may be foreshadowing something...."

Great point, would make sense having the religious context of the Gordon Riots in mind...

With all the Olympics, I keep forgetting to post! I finished about two days ago.

So far, it seems as if Dickens is merely laying the foundation. Background information, and a lot of hints of what is to come. Like Gabriel's and Joe's characters quite a bit. Sadly, though, I put all of Dickens characters up against Sam Weller for likability, and except for Kit in the Old Curiosity Shop, no one comes close. I will have to see about Gabriel and Joe - Joe has spunk, and I like that.

Looking forward to getting into the Gordon Riots and the religious conflicts in the story.

And interesting point about Gabriel's name - could be for the Angel Gabriel, fighting "evil." We'll have to see.

Barnaby himself is a bit sad, and the description of his mother - always on a brink of having an expression of terror - was different.

Madge - thanks for all the wonderful links.

Lynnm wrote: "With all the Olympics, I keep forgetting to post! I finished about two days ago.

So far, it seems as if Dickens is merely laying the foundation. Background information, and a lot of hints of what..."

Both Sam and Kit are very likable and arouse genuine sympathy. Well, I also like Esther and Flora from his other novels, but shhhh... here come spoilers:-)

Zulfiya wrote: "Both Sam and Kit are very likable and arouse genuine sympathy. Well, I also like Esther and Flora from his other novels, but shhhh... here come spoilers:-) "

:-) Looking forward then to Esther and Flora.

Speaking of spoilers, is it okay to discuss guesses on where the plot is going? Such as guesses as to who that terrible man at the Malpole is who ended up at Barnaby Rudge's home, talking to his mother?

Speculation is the best part of literary discussion. The premise poses more questions than answers.