Queereaders discussion

OK, here is a question that I would like some honest answers and opinions on.

I've known for a long time that I'm bi-sexual. I did not admit this to others until a few years ago. My very first crushes were all women. Both on television and in real life. I've yet to do more than kiss another woman. I'm looking forward to that first experience.

Now here is my question. I have two wonderful lesbian neighbors and as I was sitting in their living room one night discussing this and happened to mention that I haven't had an opportunity to be with a woman yet, they freaked!

My one neighbor told me that she had a feeling I was gay and that I had just confirmed it for her... I have a relationship with a man right now. We are Poly and are looking for others to share with (hopefully a woman we are both interested in). So my neighbors comment confused me. I said, well I like both.

She told me she had "done the dick thing for a while too" and that once I have my first experience with a woman I will realize that I am full on gay. O.O

So my question. Is that possible? Is it possible to be gay and think you are bi, simply because you haven't had the experience? and she had such a "I knew it" look about her that it made me wonder. LOL. Is there a lesbian vibe or something that I've missed women giving off? Why was she so convinced I am gay when I live with a man? Do you think she could be right and once I finally have an experience with a woman... that I'll just say, forget men?

Would love to know what you think!

It's called biphobia what she's doing or trying to do.

Me, I'm definitely bisexual with a strong leaning towards men and I hold with the definition that anyone who experiences pleasure, attraction, love or lust even just once for the same sex and also is attracted to the other is bisexual.

Have a look here:

http://www.bisexualindex.org.uk/index...

http://www.bisexualindex.org.uk/index...

If you're happy with your man and enjoying what you do I don't think you'll change once you are with a woman. You'll just continue to be yourself. And that's best, right?

I agree about the bi-phobia. It's all too common in the gay community.
There is also the fact that some people experiment with both sexes before establishing a sexual identity. They then extrapolate their experience unto everyone else and assume if you say you're bi your experimenting and you'll eventually choose one or the other.

Much of my initial sexual and dating experience was with other women. Well, other girls, at the time, and well into college I dated pretty evenly across the board. I did marry a man, when I finally fell into that kind of love, but I've encountered the same sort of attitude, and It perplexes me. I can't get into other peoples heads to examine why they feel that way. I know it sometimes annoys me to get that attitude, but then, I know who I am and who I want, and really, when time comes, I think you will too.

Well, it did seem unlikely to me. :)
So I was curious on others opinions or if anyone knew of anyone with a similar experience. I had no idea that there was such a dislike for bisexuality (though come to think of it, she did tell me she hated that term).
I find it odd, when I know so many people who ARE bi-sexual. Plus, if you are looking at us vs them mentality... well, bi-sexuals are going to be on the side of LGBT. So why the distaste?

I once had a guy end it after a rather casual admission of my bisexuality. See if you can spot the irony.

Him: "I know I'm gay and all but that woman down there dancing in the tank top is really doing it for me."

Me: "I'm really not surprised and I'm bi anyway so you know I was already looking."

Wow! Mark, that's just... WOW!

In the end, thinking you were better off. lol

My biggest pet peeve being Bi is how you tell people you are bi and then later tell them you are with an opposite gender partner and they say "so that bi thing didn't work out?" or you tell them you are with someone of the same gender and they say "so you're gay now?" If you're Bi you're bi regardless of who your current partner is.

Well I'm Poly, so maybe I can bypass that but having one of each. lol

Agent 99 (aka Kd) wrote: "Well I'm Poly, so maybe I can bypass that but having one of each. lol"

I can imagine some heads will positively explode when you tell them. I only wish I could be there to watch. ;)

LOL. Quite possibly. I've been doing a lot of explaining lately. Just what poly means. How it's different from Polygamy or from swinging or an open relationship. lol

But it works for us. I was in a long term relationship (since High school) that I only terminated a year a half ago and he was in a long term relationship as well. Neither of us want to settle down. We love each other's company, but we want to explore and experience and enjoy. Since we are in agreement on that, a Poly relationship was a natural progression for us. :)

I've been in open relationships. I've had friends in poly relationships. Seems like a lot of drama to me but if the right people came along I wouldn't immediately throw the idea out.
Being bi, being in an open relationship, being transgender, sometimes when people ask about my sexuality, etc. I feel like, "you have fifteen minutes? Sit down, this is going to take awhile." ;)

Ha! Yes. I don't have time to explain. I don't have time to tell you all my desires and expectations. Do you desire me? Do you want me? Then let's talk!

I have a great man who believes that he has more love in his heart than can be contained by one person. I've dated, lived with, and eventually bought a house with this man.. you know what??? I agree with him. :)

I have a lot of love to give. A lot of emotion. A lot of sexual energy. It's there for those that are willing to experience and share themselves! I am not looking for excluxive... please don't expect it!

Though I consider him my Master, I do not expect ALL My relationships to be BDSM. Some will be... Some will be just pure sexual. Nothing wrong with either!

As a Poly person, there are SOME rules. I can date whomever I want... BUT! I have only one Master. He's the only one I shall refer to as Master and the only one I will wear a collar for. Other than that... I can play with whomever I want! :)

He can play with whomever he wants as well. He discusses other subs with me first. A matter of respect. I haven't said "no" on any potentials so far... :)

That'd be quite a restrictive view. Sure, you *might* realize that you like experiences with women more... but you may also realize that, as you thought, you like both. The contrary happens too—someone who thought s/he was gay realizing that s/he's actually bi. IMHO, one's sexuality doesn't have to be a never-changing aspect of their being, nor does it have to be "it happened to X, so it'll happen to you too".

Very true, Yzabel!

Most lesbians have dated men or slept with men at one time or another, and same is true for gay men. I havent dated a man in YEARS and don't have desire to, but I am not repulsed by men and find a lot quite attractive. I got tired of having to explain my 'lesbianism' to people so usually now I just identify as Queer. Honestly, you don't need to explain or justify your feelings to anyone, gay or straight. What you feel is what you feel and that is all that matters.

Thank you Fivesunflowers! That does help. :)

It reminds me to be me, no matter who that is! Thank you!

Agent 99 (aka Kd) wrote: "Wow! Mark, that's just... WOW!

In the end, thinking you were better off. lol"

Thanks! I think you may be right there. He texts me quite a bit but has a habit of reiterating what his problem was whenever it comes up or more often when we actually run into each other at the pub. He doesn't know but I've intervened to stop him going home with people I know are just thieves who act well. Those people are the reason I try to only go into the main part of the pub and only through the main entrance now. The pub I'm talking about is the George. There are actually three bars but one of them is the upstairs one. The small bar is known for having the older crowd. The younger thieves tend to be in there, (even though that seems counter-intuitive because they have more targets in the other two), because they believe it will be easier to get an older man to bring them home or go outside with them etc. Also they probably think the slightly older ones have more money and target the ones who just pop in after work. Anyway him I've played along and left them unconscious and/or with broken arms around the corner. He is a little bit gullible.

Agent 99 (aka Kd) wrote: "OK, here is a question that I would like some honest answers and opinions on.

I've known for a long time that I'm bi-sexual. I did not admit this to others until a few years ago. My very first c..."

I am so tired of the shunning of bi. I hear this all the time that bi is simply not being open about one's true interest. To put it mildly, I think that is bull shit, of course I'm bi. What I think it boils down to is complete lack of knowledge about the sexuality scale. Kinsey had some great insights and I like this way of using a scale to show sexuality. On one end are people who are 100% straight with absolutely no leanings toward the same sex. On the opposite end are people who are 100% gay with a complete dislike for the opposite sex. The majority of us are somewhere between the two extremes but people like things to be black or white so they boil it down to are you straight or gay. Saying I'm 80% straight or 10% gay makes people have to talk and discuss all the shades of sexuality and that makes people uncomfortable and of course question their own location on the scale. Humans are messy creatures will ill defined boundaries.

Going back to the original question, that was a pretty arrogant thing for your neighbor to say.

Sexual orientation isn't just about having sex. It's attraction and desire. Even if you decided you preferred full-on sex with either men or women, your desire for both sexes would still be there.

This topic always makes my head hurt. So frustrating. It shouldn't be so hard for people to understand.

Just stumbled up on this discussion.I am having Bi feelings now and am attracted to one of the opposite sex. She made the anti-bi comments which in a way took me aback; as I really don't care what you do in your bedroom. Bi exists otherwise we would not be having this discussion. Thanks folks, this is somewhat enlightening.

Anna (Bananas!) wrote: "Sexual orientation isn't just about having sex. It's attraction and desire. Even if you decided you preferred full-on sex with either men or women, your desire for both sexes would still be there"

*bows*
amen to that sister!
exactly... perfect way to say what I believe

Agent 99 (aka Kd) wrote: "why the distaste?"

I love this conversation and how quickly Steelwhisperer labeled the biphobia. education about biphobia has been gaining ground in the LGBTQI movement, but it's still rampant. I am queer, but for a long time ID'd as bi, and have thought a lot about "why the distaste?"

I think it has a lot to do with a complex combination of horizontal oppression and internalized heteronormativity. horizontal oppression being when oppressed groups level bias and discrimination at each other, and internalized heteronormativity being exactly what ppl have mentioned: you have to "pick" one. I think so many gay individuals have been treated so poorly, both in outright ways and in more veiled cultural ways, that they really feel they had to pick...so everyone must. as in, if you aren't straight, you at least have to be gay. "bisexual" is too ambiguous, and culturally is often portrayed as morally ambiguous too. I was just thinking about an interview with the actress who plays Kalinda on "The Good Wife", and how the interviewer referred to her character as an "evil bisexual"...and he said it with a kind of glee. like the two went together and were just so titillatingly "sinful".

btdub, my fave insufficient description of bisexuality: "last stop on the train to Gaysville"

I wrote a vampire novel where the two main characters are bisexual, and was rather disturbed afterwards to discover that I was unwittingly adding to the long tradition of associating bisexuality with evil...

sarah wrote: "if you aren't straight, you at least have to be gay. "bisexual" is too ambiguous, and culturally is often portrayed as morally ambiguous too."

Exactly and that's what always bothers me. Bisexual is frequently wrongly associated with polygamy.

This topic is one that is a pet peeve of mine.
As a bisexual individual, I get so annoyed with the Lesbian and Gay members of my community who feel and openly state that one 'must' choose.
Speaking only for my own experiences, I have never had a straight individual express (to my face) that I needed to 'choose my label' but that is just my experience.
I have struggled with this conflict over and over as I have been an active member of our LGBT community since coming out at the age of 21.
In my mid twenties to early thirties I would say that I floated more towards women than men.
In fact I had only two relationships during that time (one was a 5 year and the other was a 7 year) but I was always attracted to men during that time. (No, I did not have any affairs).
In my late thirties early forties, I dated a man. Well let me re-frame that. I dated a man whom identified himself as a queer individual. He felt that he was a lesbian trapped inside a mans body.
He told me this before we started dating, and although I did not understand his exact feelings I did not feel that I needed too.
I will skip the details of that relationship but will say that it was an emotional roll-a-coaster leaving me still liking him but unable to carry on in the relationship.
I am currently in an on again off again relationship with a woman who refuses to identify herself as anything. She says she is a woman who happens to enjoy women now and then.
I know this relationship is really more like friends with benefits and yet I am satisfied with that at this time.
In my view, men have attractive bodies just like women. I am only slightly more drawn to having 'relationships' as in emotional attachments to women based off my history of relationships.

I get annoyed with the book tagging that is going on here at goodreads of this 'gay for you' nonsense.
I can clearly see that some reviewers have emotional investments to the whole choose your 'side'.

As I see these reviewers comment on the books that they have tagged 'gay for you', it reads like a fairy-tale of Cinderella or Snow white.... And he finally found his prince !!!.. (insert awes here) and the woman he was with well she was really the evil queen.. who had him under a spell no less, but true love is here at last.. (excuse me while I barf).

But to be serious here for a moment, this gay for you tag is extremely offensive to me as a bisexual individual. It is dismissive and frankly shows a lack of understanding of bisexual individuals.
Again I have only spoken here from my personal experience.
I lean towards D. comment (message #5) as being most like my thoughts/experiences.

Don wrote: "I think the problem with a lot of us gay people is that a lot of people have had straight relationships and hid behind the "I'm bisexual" label only to later come out and they we really gay all along"

I think this is critical to understanding the difficulty of this.

I have let go of my bitterness about being told I couldn't be bi, but, many of us feel as socially shamed about it as any gay or queer or trans person.

but many gay people feel/felt that "bisexual" was more acceptable than "gay", initially, because it wasn't a total rejection of what they were being shamed into.

there is absolutely biphobia out there, the attitude that says that gay is more real than bi, and that you have to be "one or the other" (straight or gay). there is also the homophobia that says you can't be gay, it's wrong, so being bi is a softening of the coming out process (even to ourselves).

obviously there's just pain all around. and the more lesbian and gay individuals can support and advocate for their bisexual fellows, the better off we all are.

there is a reason the letters read "GLBTQQI". because the social movements to advocate for everyone included in that/those community/ies started with gay men, added lesbian women, sort of let the bisexuals tag along, and eventually recognized trans issues.

I think there should be a perpetual call within the GLBTQQI community (gay lesbian bi trans queer questioning intersex) to support and advocate for all of us, across race and class and identities.

sarah wrote: "I think this is critical to understanding the difficulty of this.

I have let go of my bitterness about being told I couldn't be bi, but, many of us feel as socially shamed about it as any gay or queer or trans person...."

It is even worse than that for people like me who not only are bisexual, but also have strong poly-leanings. To be constantly told being a cheater and worse than the dirt under other people's nails because one not only is bi but also could indeed engage with two people at the same time (and that's not cheating when everyone knows and agrees) is rather disheartening, and indeed embittering.

Steelwhisper, I have been thinking just today a great deal about poly and the predominance of monogamy, and how to go about framing poly as non-threatening for someone who doesn't understand it.

is it too academic to ask if the dominance of monogamy is related to both the "privacy" and single-family home syndrome of American (capitalist?) society? or just too much of a tangent.

sarah wrote: "Steelwhisper, I have been thinking just today a great deal about poly and the predominance of monogamy, and how to go about framing poly as non-threatening for someone who doesn't understand it...."

The problem there starts with misconceptions about what poly is, or rather can be. Three or four people can be just as faithful to each other as two, and such a relationship may be exactly as closed as a twosome. Poly is not (necessarily) synonymous with swinging or a large amount of ever changing partners.

I feel the previous two comments (29,30) have made many points about tolerance, acceptance and judgements of others. (You all added comments when I was typing this)

For me personally, I say that no one has the right to or ability to judge/declare/question my bisexuality but me.

As I said before, I have been (am) active in the LGBT community since the time that it was still called LGBT. Yes the L was originally before the G. :) in our (local) community although I have recently been told that in other (local) communities who started their movements at a different date, they had the letter swapped.

Speaking from someone who was there and is there: The marches, protests, petitions were and are filled with bisexual (and transgender) individuals just the same as they were the Lesbian and Gay members of our community.

Steelwhisper, indeed.

Tammy, thanks for clarifying my word order in LG/GL...I haven't finished Michael Bronksi's Queer History of the United Stated yet and I'm way behind on my Stonewall info, too, so, feel free to correct me there.

it is not an uncommon historical critique, though, to say that bisexual rights and transgender rights were less recognized on social platforms of the gay movement when it started. not speaking of the makeup of the advocates, who have, as you say, been all around all around.

You know, I just took the time to read what Sarah and steel were saying and got to thinking about self acceptance and acceptance in general.

It might be worth considering starting a thread on self acceptance.
What it is, what it isn't and how to go about expressing it.
Because so often we all feel that we are out there alone and really we all have the same issues to deal with just in a different package.
Everyone deals with self identity and as one member here has already stated that can be a life long process to work out. There are many aspects to that as well..
Some of us, have had professional therapy, some of us have had friend support us and some of us have family who support us but the topic of establishing a support system and how one goes about it might be a good part of that conversation.
Acceptance of others differences could be another part of the conversation.
and so on.
Just thinking here but it seems that there is a place for a group discussion.

Sarah, Its off topic so I will remove this comment if someone requests.
I recently watched a video on PBS talking about the Aid epidemic in the early 1980's.
It hit home to me, because it is through the Aid epidemic that I got active.
I had many friends lose their lives and my brother was diagnosed with HIV in the early 1990's.
If I was to suggest any reference material relating to the push of the movement of the LGBT community to get publicly active it would be that video.
David Weissman's documentary about the AIDS crisis in San Francisco titled We Were Here.

I wish I had time to read every comment, though it looks like the common theme is bisexual people face prejudice, bashing and ostracizing even from other groups fighting against the same thing.

This gal at work, what a dip...says, "I don't understand. You're married. How can you be bi?".

So, I explain to her, "Do you like Pepsi? Do you like Coke? It's like that..I like Pepsi and Coke. Similar products: both are carbonated cola flavored beverages, but you would never confuse one for the other. Their differences are significant. Sometimes, I like to have them together." ;-D

I never believed that marriage was a proof of heterosexuality.

Nancy wrote: "I never believed that marriage was a proof of heterosexuality."

Indeed, both Chris and I are examples of that fallacy. The best things that came from denial, marriage and living up to others expectations were kids and grandkids, the worst things depressions, anxiety and alcoholism. 34 years after he and I got together, we are both purely Gay and in retrospect have always been. Just because one has made babies does not mean one is straight or even Bi.

Tammy K. wrote: "Sarah, Its off topic so I will remove this comment if someone requests..."

thanks Tammy. haven't seen it yet but had heard of it, it's in my netflix queue now.

Nancy wrote: "I never believed that marriage was a proof of heterosexuality."

lol, indeed!

I often worry that I'll end up with a man, b/c then I'll look straight(er).

@Agent 99 asked, "Is it possible to be gay and think you are bi, simply because you haven't had the experience?"

Well, according to one of my straight relatives when I was teen, I thought I was bi, simply because I hadn't had the experience of being gay. It's funny how thirty years' worth of heterosexual relationships didn't erase my gay feelings. . . .

@Francis, I know how you feel; I've had occasions where I wrote a character in a particular way, only to discover that I was contributing to a stereotype. As a reader, though, my feeling is that each story stands and falls on its own merits, regardless as to how other authors treat the same subject. So, while I try not to be a lazy writer who deals in destructive cliches, I feel that my stereotyped characters aren't in a grand conspiracy with everyone else's characters. (Also, one person's stereotype is another person's trope.)

I don't know whether it's sad or funny that reviewers want to categorise my undeniably bisexual vampire(s) as 'lesbian'.

Francis wrote: "I don't know whether it's sad or funny that reviewers want to categorise my undeniably bisexual vampire(s) as 'lesbian'."

I'd suggest it's human nature to interpret characters from one's own point of view. There are a lot of straight characters I have read the I read as Gay just because I like them even though I know it's wishful thinking. The best writers can create characters that almost anyone can identify with.

Very true, Kernos.

I've been told sexuality is complex. While I've only ever seen myself as gay, I can understand that people don't want to feel limited by the label they're given. Don't let people box you in, maybe your neighbors are letting their personal experiences cloud their opinions, or it's one of those "don't know until you try it things". But like I said, sexuality is complex; I didn't even know pansexualism existed until a few weeks ago!

I love Laci Green's explanation of pansexuality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv5k9w...

I liked that YouTube video and I saw this video as well where she talks about bisexuality and biphobia

Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmwi-4...

I know that many gay individuals, in their coming out process, may first identify themselves as bisexual and then realize that they are gay as opposed to bisexual.

I think that our society is making great strides in accepting gay people, which is great and I think again this has to do with the "black and white" mentality that people apply to sexuality.

I think even people who are accepting or tolerant in nature may not accept bisexuality as much as they will heterosexuality or even homosexuality because they do not understand it, and their "black and white" mentality may short circuit when thinking "you used to date a man, now you date a woman?" or "how can you like girls and guys at the same time?" or they think that you like everyone, like you are a sex crazed deviant. I think bisexuality, overall, is less talked about in the media and amongst individuals and this creates ignorance and furthers intolerance. I personally think that bisexuality may even be more stigmatized than someone being gay because of this lack of understanding. I think bisexuals have to explain themselves a lot more to people and people make more judgments on them overall. Which is sad. And ridiculous.

To me, bisexuality (and pansexuality) means that you like the person, not their reproductive organs. And it's as simple as that to me.

When I first came out, I classified myself as bisexual, since everyone knew I had shown an interest in men and assumed that I had been married to one for more than twenty years. The funny thing was that I had never been with a man at that point. I thought at the time that I wanted to, though. Boy was I in for a surprise.

To begin with, I was born a transsexual, so I led a life of confusion as to not just sexuality but to gender roles as well. Trying times.

After my marriage of over twenty years to my wife ended, I moved toward fixing what nature had scrambled (post-op for almost a year, now). One thing led to another, and I experimented with a man. Eh, didn't do anything for me - quite literally - I need woman for that.

Now I no longer classify myself as bisexual. I have no desire for the opposite sex. I only want to be with another woman. That said, I can see where for some this is a fluid thing, based more on the inner person that attracted them. Or I can see where some would have that physical chemistry for either sex. Who's to say, except for the person that feels the attraction? For me, I just know that no matter how attractive a man's personality might be, the physical chemistry will never be there.

Each of us knows ourselves best, if we only take the time to listen to our inner voice and not let others sway us from that knowledge.