The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Section Three Thread is open to discuss the trials and tribulations of characters populating the Barnaby Rudge universe. Post your thoughts, ideas, speculations, opinions, links, and everything you think your reading buddies would like to read and discuss. This section covers only 5 (Five) chapters.

That is the confused verbal expression of my thoughts. :-) Dickens still continues to build the premise for the story, but he has delineated the circle of leading characters. Mr. Haredale and Mr. Chester, Sr. are the two key figures in this section, and they basically convey the brunt of the emotional conflict and also the underlying religious conflict.
The morality of Mr. Chester, Sr. is quite dubious when it comes to money and religion because he would not mind his son marrying a Catholic, but the aspirant spouse should be filthy rich to pay off his debts. His behavior and lifestyle are quite decadent and amoral, and Dickens was definitely savoring every word he used to describe his behavior, appearance, aplomb, and mannerism. His suave mode of presenting himself and talking is extremely irritating. His son, on the other hand, has a brave heart and challenges his father after Mr. Haredale prohibits any dates between the two young lovers.

Miss Varden and Joe Willet are another example of a possible heart attachment, but this possibility is even more vague and elusive than the previous couple. But these two couples will possibly move the plot forward; at least, their presence makes the plot lines more focused, and readers can establish certain connections between the parallel yarns. This is the trick that was used many times by another British literary genius, William Shakespeare.

And Mrs. Varden definitely represents the archetypal character of a fussy mother, similar to Mrs. Nickleby and Mrs. Bennett. They are loyal mothers, but their motherhood turns them into very comical characters that are ‘loved’ by generations of readers.

Finally, an observation that Dickens makes in the sixteenth chapter about the poorest and unlit streets f London. We tend to believe that Dickens London was a bleak place with slums and cold and foggy streets. But if Dickens considers the 18th century streets murky and tenebrous, how should we view them? Just a statement. And again, a cliff-hanger (a stranger and his hostage) Who could they be?

I am writing this post just to let you know that the tread is open and to make it visible for everybody as the recently updated thread. We are experiencing some technical difficulties as the recent thread for the third section can not feature among the recent ones. I have emailed the moderators, and I hope the issue will be resolved in the nearest future. Meanwhile, if you want to comment, please go to the Dickens project folder and find this thread in the list of all Dickens threads. It is currently only the sixth thread. Again, sorry about that. Now I understand why Barnaby Rudge is not widely read as his other novels. It is simply jinxed:-)

Here are this week's running titles:



Ch. 12: Mr. Haredale and Mr. Chester. Quite a good understanding.
Ch. 13: The Boy again. The Warren. Diplomacy of Miss Miggs.
Ch. 14: Respecting Dolly. Comfortable in Bed.
Ch. 15: Father and Son. Family affairs. A Parent's Blessing.
Ch. 16: A Spectral Man.

Dickens is, as usual, quite facetious, bantering, and tongue-in-cheek about his titles:-)

I am not so sure what to say about these chapters, I am probably seeing so many different possible threads that I am wondering how they will all come together. And then there should be the riots, too.

We have encountered so many characters and threads at the moment, but have not particularly received any answers yet. At least, we learned about the "forbidden" love between Miss Haredale and Edward Chester, which is to me a real classic. We also learned about a Catholic side and a Protestant side in the form of the Haredales and the Chesters. This could be an omen for the upcoming conflict that we are somehow expecting here.
The character of Mr. Chester was depicted in a very detailed manner, and not particularly in his favour. He pretends to be rich, makes debts continuously and expects his son to make up for that. I was thinking of Mr. Bray in Nicholas Nickleby, although he was already beyond the point of pretending... However, he also expected his daughter to make up for all his failures.

I am still curious what is behind the story of Mr Haredale and Mr Chester. There must be something meaningful behind their animosity. As Mr. Haredale does not seem to have been married, I was already speculating, whether Mr. Chester won the heart of the lady who Mr. Haredale was in love with, and this love triangle ended in a lifelong hatred. Or Mr. Chester was involved in something that relates to the Haredale mystery... But this is only wild speculation ;-)

As a conclusion, I really think I am too much involved in all these ongoing stories and plots. Zulfiya, I was also amazed about our weekly cliffhanger. Do the chapters we are reading on a weekly base correspond to the weekly installments in Master Humphrey's Clock? It almost seems like it :-)

Hedi wrote: "I am not so sure what to say about these chapters, I am probably seeing so many different possible threads that I am wondering how they will all come together. And then there should be the riots, t..."

So far, all the characters that were introduced in the novel are very tangible, bigger-than-life, and palpable. As it has been mentioned elsewhere in this discussion, Dickens is a true master of characterization, and we have yet to meet a dull, grey, or static character. And those two (Chester and Haredale)are not an exception.

As far as cliffhangers are concerned, I was not following any schedule, just my whim:-) When I was scheduling, I was basically paging through the novel and counting pages:-) Dickens might have done the same.

I too thought of Shakespeare in the stories of the 2 sets of lovers. The highborn ones speak in poetic language (at least Edward does) and have a tragic context (Romeo & Juliet). The lower class ones, Joe and Dolly, are more comic. Poor Joe looks forward for months to his one chance to see Dolly and he is stuck with the rest of the household. Then we have Miggs and Sim who I think deserve to end up with each other!

In the interview at the Maypole between Chester and Haredale I though Chester was polite and civilized and Haredale rather barbarian. But when we saw Chester again on his own and with his son, I realized he is totally self-centered, lazy and amoral. Probably Edward turned out decently because he spent so little time with his father.

I was struck by Edward's saying "I have received a liberal education and so am fit for nothing" )not sure if that's exactly it, but it's a sentiment we sometimes hear today.

Robin wrote: "I too thought of Shakespeare in the stories of the 2 sets of lovers. The highborn ones speak in poetic language (at least Edward does) and have a tragic context (Romeo & Juliet). The lower class on..."

Barnaby also reminds me of Shakespeare.

Barnaby seems to fit the "Fool" character found throughout Shakespeare's plays at least partially. He speaks in a code language all his own that many of Shakespeare's fools have. Much like Shakespeare's fools he does seem to know much more than he lets on.

Barnaby does differ from Shakespeare's fools in that he is very honest and genuine. He isn't acting a part for the benefit of others like a lot of Shakespeare's fools.

Barnaby's dreams and visions seem to be straight out of Shakespeare. Both Granaouille and MadgeUK have excellent posts about Barnaby's dreams on an earlier thread.

Shakespeare used dreams to foreshadow future events and Barnaby's clothesline dream seems to be a foreshadowing of the Gordon Riots (at least, that's the way it seems since this is my first time reading the novel).

When I mentioned the fact that the novel is somewhat Shakespearean because the device of double plots is used, I meant "King Lear' and 'Hamlet', but you, Amanda and Robin, are shedding light on some of the things I have not even considered or totally missed. Bravo! Our Dickens project discussions are becoming more and more stimulating and engaging!

Robin wrote: "I too thought of Shakespeare in the stories of the 2 sets of lovers. The highborn ones speak in poetic language (at least Edward does) and have a tragic context (Romeo & Juliet). The lower class on..."

Robin, I was thinking first of Romeo and Juliet and similar stories, too.

Amanda, that was a great point of Barnaby being Shakespearian, I had not directly thought of that, but you are right that there are similarities there.

With the other Shakespearian elements it will be interesting to see whether Dickens continues his novel that way.

I am thoroughly enjoying the novel so far, and the sinister build up in chapter 16 was enjoyable, which together with the cliffhanger will propel me quickly into the next section.

And yet, on reflection, I feel that we are still at the introduction, as sofar the novel has been setting the scene and introducing the characters. The characters have not yet moved from their starting positions. Normally such a long introduction would be tedious, but not in this case.

My knowledge of Shakespeare is insufficient to add to that interesting thread of comments. However the multiple plot lines could also be regarded as a forerunner to the soap operas of today.

I really enjoyed these chapters - don't mean to keep repeating myself, but I can't believe that this novel has been ignored so much.

Definitely agree that Miss Haredale and Edward Chester are symbolic of the upcoming fight between the Catholics and the Protestants. I'm looking forward to those chapters.

Does that mean that Haredale and Chester senior are symbolic of the attitudes of each religion? If so, neither religion would come off well. Haredale as boorish and mean, and Chester as pretending he is something he is not, higher up and more elite than he is.

Like all of you, I am also wondering why Haredale and Chester don't like each other.

Haredale to me though isn't as bad as Chester. Haredale lacks social manners (an understatement), but he does love his niece, and I think he really believes that he is doing the best for her. While Chester is just an arse from start to finish. ;)

I've changed my view on Mrs. Varden, however. When we first met her, I thougth of her as a Mrs. Bennett or Mrs. Nickelby type character - silly and annoying, but likable. But Mrs. Varden isn't likable. She is so completely self-centered and arrogant towards men in general that the character lacks any type of sympathy. Mrs. Nickelby did lose everything when her husband died, and Mrs. Bennett's concerns are quite real. But Mrs. Varden has a nice husband and life, and all she does is torment those around her. She's not a villain, but definitely not likable.

And I agree about the similarities to a Shakespeare play. The lovers, the fools, and a larger issue that the author is exploring - in this case, the riots.

Question - why do you think that Dolly so completely ignored Joe? Her parents were there, but she gave him absolutely nothing. Not a glance, a smile, a hello, anything.

And it seemed as if she liked him when we first met her. That is why Sim hates Joe so much.

I think Dolly is playing with him, trying to impress him with her social life which takes her away (I didn't understand first why her mother said she was waiting for a chair - that it was as a means of conveyance). I was sure she had asked about Joe or blushed when his name was mentioned earlier. She's young and enjoying her power over Joe.

Lynnm wrote: "But Mrs. Varden isn't likable. She is so completely self-centered and arrogant towards men in general that the character lacks any type of sympathy. "

Mrs. Varden is not likable at all in this section. She's downright nasty to Miggs, Gabriel and especially Joe.

It's interesting that Dickens makes her the most religious character to appear so far in Barnaby. Her reading of the Protestant manual and her snapping at Miggs about the angels comment and calling her a "wretch" shows that she has a very narrow-minded and rigid view of Christianity.

I think Dickens is using Mrs. Varden to illustrate a type of harsh Christianity that can lead people to do terrible things, such as participate in the Gordon Riots (again, I haven't read the rest of the novel so I'm not sure what actually happens).

Amanda wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "But Mrs. Varden isn't likable. She is so completely self-centered and arrogant towards men in general that the character lacks any type of sympathy. "

Mrs. Varden is not likable at a..."

Organized religion and Dickens are not best friends. I still remember that chapter describing the service in the church in his Old Curiosity Shop with the smile.

Robin wrote: "I think Dolly is playing with him, trying to impress him with her social life which takes her away (I didn't understand first why her mother said she was waiting for a chair - that it was as a mean..."

Yes, most likely that's the reason.

But I felt so sorry for Joe - he's such a sweet guy, and he gets so much grief from his father. I would have liked to see Dolly give him some kind of sign.

She did blush when she heard his name when he wasn't there, but that doesn't do poor Joe any good. ;) He needs to see something from her.

Zulfiya wrote: "Organized religion and Dickens are not best friends. I still remember that chapter describing the service in the church in his Old Curiosity Shop with the smile. "

Definitely. We get that over and over again in his books.

Which makes me think that he will treat both the Catholics and Protestants the same in this book. ;) Neither are to be trusted.

I think that this is one book that I'm going to have to read ahead of our schedule. (Still will participate of course...will just make notes so I remember things clearly for our discussions.) But I need to know what is happening sooner rather than later!

Lynnm wrote: "Zulfiya wrote: "Organized religion and Dickens are not best friends. I still remember that chapter describing the service in the church in his Old Curiosity Shop with the smile. "

Definitely. We g..."


I am opening the new thread tomorrow. Just a little bit of patience:-) There are loads of fun and dramatic events there.

Lynnm wrote: "Zulfiya wrote: "Organized religion and Dickens are not best friends. I still remember that chapter describing the service in the church in his Old Curiosity Shop with the smile. "

Definitely. We g..."

While the religious differences are mentioned and would be significant at the time, it appears that it is the financial issue at the heart of Mr Chester's disapproval of the match and hatred of Mr Chester that would be the issue for Haredale. Also, catching Edward sneaking into his home would not have helped matters any, no matter how noble Edward's feelings for Emma.

I was also disappointed by Dolly's behaviour towards Joe, particularly as he had been so clearly worked up by the prospect of seeing her. Would Joe be considered an appropriate suitor for Dolly? If so, I am surprised Mr Varden is not more aware of his motivation and doesn't either help him out or actively dissuade him. Would Sim Tappertit be considered as a prospective son-in-law? As an apprentice to the father's trade, I would assume he comes from the same social station. Or do we think that the Vardens might be trying to trade on her beauty and have her marry up?

A good point about the possible husband for Dolly. If Gabriel Varden is a locksmith, Simon Tappertit is on par with him, at least in the foreseeable future. But it seems like Dickens has already chosen him as an object of ridicule, though still waters like Sim run deep.

I wonder if Mrs Varden is based upon the fictional character of Mrs Grundy? The figure of Mrs Grundy, was an unseen character from Thomas Morton's play of 1798, Speed the Plough, to whom the onstage characters frequently refer as a censorious judge of their behaviour, had become a cliche of narrow minded respectability by the mid-nineteenth century. (Thomas Hardy coined the word 'Grundyist' to describe conventional, narrow-minded people, such as those who harshly judged Tess of the d'Urbevilles.)

MadgeUK wrote: "I wonder if Mrs Varden is based upon the fictional character of Mrs Grundy? The figure of Mrs Grundy, was an unseen character from Thomas Morton's play of 1798, Speed the Plough, to whom the onstag..."

I know Dickens mentions a certain Grundy in Hard Times. As far as I know, Mrs. Grundy is quite a name in the literary world, but usually she is referred to or mentioned but never acts or comes to light. Thanks for mentioning it, MadgeUK. One more proof that Dickens prose is quite allusive.

The introduction to my edition mentioned that many women copied fashions from Dickens' description of Dolly Varden's clothes.

I looked it up because Dickens' describes Dolly's "cherry-colored ribbons" so much in this section. Here's a link:
http://zipzipinkspot.blogspot.com/200...

Apparently there was a Dolly Varden craze in the 1870s that included dresses, hats and even songs.

Any one else think "Dolly Parton"?

Amanda wrote: "The introduction to my edition mentioned that many women copied fashions from Dickens' description of Dolly Varden's clothes.

I looked it up because Dickens' describes Dolly's "cherry-colored ribb..."

Quite frolicsome! Thank you for a link.

Frances, only a VERY YOUNG Dolly Parton! LOL

Amanda wrote: "The introduction to my edition mentioned that many women copied fashions from Dickens' description of Dolly Varden's clothes.

I looked it up because Dickens' describes Dolly's "cherry-colored ribb..."

Thanks for that information, Amanda. I admit that I liked the descriptions of her clothes - they sound very pretty.

Frances wrote: "Any one else think "Dolly Parton"?"

Hmmm...I don't think of Dolly Varden that way - to me at least, Dolly Parton isn't a fashion icon.

Dolly Varden is just a very "girlie girl." And I don't mean that as a negative (although in the next section I will criticize her a bit for some of her behavior).

Amanda wrote: "The introduction to my edition mentioned that many women copied fashions from Dickens' description of Dolly Varden's clothes.

I looked it up because Dickens' describes Dolly's "cherry-colored ribb..."

Amanda, thanks for that link. That is actually interesting that Dolly became something of a fashion trendsetter. :-)

Frances wrote: "Any one else think "Dolly Parton"?"

I always think of Dolley Madison in comparison to Dolly Varden. They are both short and plump, love pretty clothes and have jolly personalities.

I really like Dolly so far. She is much more of a typical teenage girl than some of the other young women in Dickens' novels. She isn't the saintly suffering type like Little Nell.

I think it is interesting that Dickens does have Dolly-type characters in his later novels, but they are more negatively portrayed.