Building a SciFi/Fantasy Library discussion

Amanda wrote: "I dislike the YA book 'genre'...Young Adult isn't a unifying style or theme, it's a target audience! I don't see how Harry Potter could be anything but Fantasy."

I agree about YA books. It's a fake category with a fake name. Harry Potter IS fantasy.

Now lets argue about Anne McCaffrey and Pern. SF or Fan?

I havn't read any McCaffrey yet (and no big spoilers please!), but from what I know about it...I'd say Sci-Fi; very, VERY inventive and clever Sci-Fi. There are some fantasy elements there and I think there might be argument for a fusion between Sci-Fi and Fantasy, but going from what I've heard, its very much Science Fiction territory.

Kernos wrote: "Now lets argue about Anne McCaffrey and Pern. SF or Fan?"

Started out fantasy, had a few tech elements to it, some strong SF elements that were mostly inert. The Harper Hall trilogy was pure fantasy, most of the prequels were pure fantasy. She didn't start hitting us over the head with SF action until Dragondawn and that's where I stopped reading.

To me, YA ONLY means that I'm not going to endure a 10 page sex scene where things are glistening.

This category has presented such masterpieces at The Hunger Games, Uglies series, Unwind, Epitaph Road and The Hungry City Chronicles just to mention a few.

Seems a bit unfair. Granted that a very small minority of non-YA books have badly-written, cringey sex-scenes in them, but I wouldn't read nothing but YA to avoid the experience. You could just avoid bad writers!

Sorry, incorrect phraseology on my part. I didn't mean I ONLY read or suggest YA. I meant that the YA definition produces excellent work ONLY without the sex scenes.

I also read plenty of non-YA stuff but lately I have found some superior YA that is equal or greater than the non-YA.

As an example, 2 of my absolutely FAVORITE books are Altered Carbon which has an extended sex scene that is very boring and gratuitous. Still, I love that book and have read it 4 times. It would not have suffered one bit from dropping that scene and then it might be technically called YA. My other favorite is The Hunger Games which is morbid, violent and dystopic (I like that!:-)) and it ONLY lacks sex and language to be quite an ADULT book.

Hope I've explained myself.

Ah, I gotcha!

I feel like reiterating my point though that YA really feels like a false category to me... It's just an indicator of who the author was expecting to read their book whilst they were reading it. It is in there with bizarre subgroups like *cringe* chick-lit.

In my worldview, there are books written for children, older children or adults, etc. and whomever it is written for, it can be great literature, or poorly written. Genre and writing quality are seperate issues altogether. People who look down their nose at YA confuse me as much as those who seem to claim it as a distinct genre.

Jay wrote: "It’s sci-fi, because telepathy and teleportation has always been part of the sci-fi universe, as well as the genetic manipulation that produced the dragons from the flying lizards of Pern...."


This was about as much as I know about it - and to my mind, nothing says Sci-Fi like genetic engineering. The dragons of Pern aren't mythical dragons, but human-created lifeforms that emulate dragon-form. I'd imagine it is Sci-Fi with a rather fantastic feel to it.

But, the genenginnering was unknown to the readers and characters until the novel which uncovered the landing site on the southern continent - 3rd or 4th trilogy, I forget.

Kernos wrote: "But, the genenginnering was unknown to the readers and characters until the novel which uncovered the landing site on the southern continent - 3rd or 4th trilogy, I forget."

This reminds me of the Arthur C Clarke quote (which I might misquote slightly here - but fundamentally goes like...) "Any technology that is significantly advanced seems like magic". Sounds like McCaffrey played with this law. The first books may have seemed like magic, but the forces at work were revealed to be Sci-Fi. Its a clever device and an excellent example of the fine line that Fantasy and Sci-Fi sometimes walk together.

Jay wrote: "And that makes it fantasy until we learn the background?..."

Yes! IMO. It felt like fantasy while I was reading it and still does until that magical day.

@Amanda - I agree completely, which is why it is one of the few series in my Sci-Fan category.

I saw an interview with Terry Pratchett on Youtube where he stated that Science Fiction is a sub-category of Fantasy. Whether we agree or disagree, the only real Science Fiction is likely stuff with actual SCIENCE in. This probably disqualifies any number of Space Operas. As for me: I don't really care, since I love both. The one nice thing about them being lumped together is that you know where to go in the bookstore without wasting valuable browsing time.

Dirk wrote: "The one nice thing about them being lumped together is that you know where to go in the bookstore without wasting valuable browsing time...."

Absoultely Dirk! Since I love both too, having both of them in one place is convienient for me personally.

And now, can I be very contraversial and claim that Star Wars is a fantasy (not a book, I know - but an interesting case)? It is set "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...." and is almost completelely devoid of any science (except for some modern inventions in the new trilogy). It bears more resemblance to the classic westerns and Akira Kurosawa films than your traditional Sci-Fi - its only the setting that seems to give a Science Fiction classification any creedance at all.

Isn't there something called a science fantasy? I've always defined that to mean that something is technically science fiction when you look at the sum of its parts but it also contains some fantastical parts. I have no idea if that makes sense or not.

There is a huge divide between science fiction and fantasy for an overwhelming majority, but there are a few books that might be called science fantasy.

Amanda wrote: "...can I be very controversial and claim that Star Wars is a fantasy?

I'm inclined to agree with your assessment, especially concerning the films. They're really just a fantasy in an alternate (or futuristic) setting. This is, however, a technical point. To avoid confusion I'd very much still classify them as Science Fiction (you know, because of the space ships, star systems, droids, aliens etc). A lot of thought has gone into the novels, and some of them definitely contain more than a fair share of 'science'. I guess it's a matter that is open for a lot of debate...

Like the famous Dragonriders of Pern argument (covered in this very thread): Fantasy or Science Fiction?

If you call Star Wars Fantasy, then so is The Terminator, Rama Series by Arthur C. Clarke, or even the The Foundation Series by Isaac Asimov.

You Could call it Fantasy because someone thought it up, 'Fantasized' it. But it is based on Science.

There is a rule of thumb for telling the difference between Fantasy and Science Fiction. Granted it's a bit too simplistic, but it's essentially correct.

Fantasy has to do with magic, elves and such. Mental powers. Non-tangible arts.
While Science Fiction has more to do with spaceships, rayguns and technical items. Physical sciences. Tangible items.

Of course there are overlapping things, but it's the context that matters then. For instance; in one story you have a Clone and in another you have a Golem. Basically they are similar enough to be the same thing, but the clone is made in a lab by scientists working with machines while a golem is made by hand out of mud and twigs and held together by a spell.

Once again, these are very simplified arguments.

Brett wrote: "Fantasy has to do with magic, elves and such. Mental powers. Non-tangible arts.
..."

Sounds like a load of Jedi Knights and Yodas to me... (why do they use swords to fight when laserguns are available anyway? Admittedly they're highly inaccurate - but still!)

You're right of course - I was trying to be contraversial and most people wouldn't normally question that Star Wars is Sci-Fi on account of setting and all the starships and such even if its not particularly hard Sci-Fi, but its a good example of the wooly definition that divides Sci-Fi and Fantasy to the point that sometimes a distinction is purely intuitional.

I put scifi and fantasy together intentionally for the genre of my book, and readers have agreed that it makes sense. I believe it is done intentionally sometimes by authors.

To be honest I don't think there should be any rules anymore about this sort of thing. We are writers. We create. Why not create a genre hybrid? It only makes sense. Plus mystery and romance may be two totally different things, but there are a lot of mystery books that are dripping with romance elements.

I just think as an author, we should be allowed to label our books whatever we believe it is because we created it. These rules should be thrown out the window.

Just my opinion

Nova wrote: "I put scifi and fantasy together intentionally for the genre of my book, and readers have agreed that it makes sense. I believe it is done intentionally sometimes by authors.

To be honest I don't..."

The categories are for publishers and booksellers to know how to market the book. Authors can and should be creating new stories outside of these pigeonholes. But bear in mind that the further outside these pigeonholes you write, the harder it will be to effectively describe the book. I tried for years to do that before I realized that my last novel was not in fact a futuristic paranormal but a new genre I called Gothic SF. Marketers think in labels, and the shorter and more intuitive the label the happier they will be.

Sorry I didn’t weigh in on this earlier. I was off to England and out of touch for a week. Just a few quick talking points.

A definition of Magic that most Occultists agree on, Gods help us if we ever totally agreed on anything the universe might come to an end, :-) is. : Magic is causing change in accordance with will without advent to common physical means.

In short all action is causing change in accordance with will. If you put a book back on your shelf you have caused change in accordance with your will, if you do it using telekinesis you’ve performed magic.

I am in the camp that says drawing a firm line between science and magic is erroneous because magic can be considered a science; see Real Magic by Isaac Bonowits.

As to the Dragon Riders of Pern they are technically Post-Apocalyptic SF because there was an advanced society virtually whipped out by a natural disaster whose descendants were struggling to cope with the aftermath. There were still plenty of trappings from the old “higher” society lying about. One example is the hot and cold running water in the wears and keeps. Another is the Dragons themselves. The PK abilities are if you look at the above definition an aspect of magic but also science because magic is a science with its own consistent laws and entrenched false hoods like any other science.

An aside as one who’s written erotica, Slaves of Love: A SF, Detective, Erotica, Romance and The Hollow Curse: A paranormal, Erotica Romance. Bad sex scenes are the worse and sex scenes are hard to write well. When I served on a Panel at the Ad Astra SF convention that deal with sex scenes the Panellists did reach a consensus that a sex scene was really just an action scene and had to serve the same purposes of advancing the plot and engaging the reader. It Tinker’s Plague: a post-Apocalyptic, Medical Political thriller, I have one sex scene that serves several purposes and lasts for about a page and a half. The problem comes in when the scene is over long for the work it is doing in the overall story.

As to Star Wars, I’ve always considered SF to be a genera largely defined by setting. Star Wars is in the classic SF setting of space. As to the rest the science is so advanced you have to just ignore it. Most space opera is like that you just go for the ride and suspend disbelief. The ones that burn me are the ones set in the near future where the writer obviously didn’t understand science and was too lazy to crack a book. If you are going to set a story in 2060 and have them in space know something about ion drives solar sails and superheated plasma drives. Odds are those will be state of the art by then.

Regarding demon summoning. The control is exercised because the demon lacks the ability to enter the Earth plane without an invitation from a native. The words serve to focus the mystics will because Magic is a matter of mating the conscious subconscious and spiritual to a single goal. The words focus the conscious and more importantly distract it making it feel important so it doesn’t block the other levels from operating. The subconscious and spirit get on with the work in hand. There is logical cause and effect to magic if one understands it. The way it’s used in most fiction I’ll agree doesn’t reflect this.

I believe I agree that the two should be separate...but can they be? I write fantasy/adventure. Some sites actually have a category for me, others lump me in with SciFi. But at the same time, like Nate said "Anne Mcaffrey's Dragon Riders of Pern, Terry Brooks's Genesis of Shannara, and Piers Anthonys Xanth are all examples" those are really good examples and I love (and own) all of them! Maybe a sliding scale where the author (and readers) can decide to which side to slide the scale, more towards fantasy or SciFi. :)

C.R. wrote: "Maybe a sliding scale where the author (and readers) can decide to which side to slide the scale, more towards fantasy or SciFi. :) "

This is something I've suggested more than once. Some SF has science that is very congruent with the science of this world. Some SF has science that makes sense in context, but not congruent with the science of this world (hyper-drive, phasers, etc). The basic principle is how much can the users of this stuff explain what it is and how it works. If they can't, it's magic and therefore fantasy. If they can, it's SF, even if the science isn't very scientific by our lights.

Marc that was awesome! You just explained it so wonderfully why mine is Fantasy! I don't want to explain the 'whys' and 'hows' just that it 'is'. I put a disclaimer everywhere I can that the book is Fantasy/Adventure. I would hate for someone to purchase it, thinking it was SciFi and be disappointed. Sales are good, but a disappointed reader is horrible.