Berengaria’s Comments (group member since Nov 11, 2021)

Berengaria’s comments from the Language Learners and Polyglots group.

J.C. wrote: "Congratulations, Berengaria"

Thanks, Jeanne!

You know, one of the things I really like about reading in other languages - especially ones I'm only intermediate in - is how INTENSE the reading experience can be.

It seems that by slowing down from the pace you normally read in your native language - or in langs you're fluent in - and focusing sentence by sentence, and taking time for exactly which words are being used, you can see and feel the descriptions, hear the conversations, much more vividly.

It's a far more "in depth" experience.

Does this happen for anyone else? Do you have a more intense, vivid reading experience when reading in a language you aren't fluent in (but also not a beginner)?

Sportyrod wrote: "I’m on page 61/249 for my longest Swedish book."

Is that one a middle grade book or for what ages is it? Middle grade is great for strengthening your reading!

Peter wrote: "This made me think of the longest foreign language book I’ve ever read. "

I think the longest book I've read in not English/German was also from JK Rowling: "A Casual Vacancy" which I read in Italian (and very much enjoyed!).

GR lists it at 553 pages. Took me months to finish! 😎

Woo hoooo! I just finished up the LONGEST novel I've ever read in Swedish - some 300+ pages. Took me about 3 weeks/1 month but I got there in the end!

It also was a very good novel. Never translated into any other language as far as I can tell, which is a shame. Deserves a wider audience.

Let's see, that makes...uh...6 in Swedish thus far. My goal for the year was only 4.

I think that's enough of the old Svenska. 😉 Now back to Italian and Welsh...

~G~ wrote: "Hi everyone! "

Hi ~G~!

Not everybody has goals this year. We are also just chatting about language learning and related topics. Feel free to jump in and join the conversation if a topic interests you or you've had a relevant experience. 😀

Japanese and German, cool! Several of us here in the chat are German speakers, so if you have a question about the lang, don't hesitate to ask.

Iamthesword wrote: "So far, there have been to:
Eugène Ionesco's play LES CHAISES"

Salut Iamthesword!

A historical journal in French or German? Either way, well done! And Japanese? Wow, cool.

I've only got to one novel in French this year so far, too. "Le Livre de Baltimore" by Joel Dicker. Really fat thing, so it honestly could be counted as 2! Might get to a Greek mystery later in the year that I have in French, we'll see.

This year we're mostly just chatting about language learning and things around that topic - so there is more going on here now!

Ivy-Mabel wrote: "' The move away from grammar
has led to teachers and students speaking gobbledygook. "

I'm interested as to what you mean by "gobbledygook", Ivy-Mabel, since teachers are also doing it. Can you give me an example?

J.C. wrote: "I must share a triumph from work just now! I work for Citizens' Advice (since I retired from teaching) and, rather than wait an hour to get through to Personal Independence Payment for my client, I..."

Hurrah! And so many English parents living in Wales don't want their kids learning Welsh because "what use is it?" Getting through quickly on official telephone lines for one!! 👏

What a terrific victory, Jeanne! I'm jumping up and down for you, too, conquering the Welsh PIP line! 💪

Paul wrote: "Berengaria wrote: "And I can attest to that being married to one h..."

I don't doubt that's true, Paul! The Teach Yourself Danish course actually practices saying "rødgrød med fløde" in a few of the later chapters! I guess they know about that joke test and are helping learners out where they can. 😅

Sportyrod wrote: " but I know from my tv shows that some dialects, especially the Scania dialect of Swedish is hard to understand."

Ah yes, Scania! that's the one that has a very similar pronunciation to Danish. Everybody thinks Danish is hard to understand. 😅

That's a good point - complimenting people on their language level.

I've met so many learners of English, esp online, who make tons of errors and yet think they speak/write wonderfully because English speakers keep telling them "your English is so good. I could never learn another language. You speak better than we do!"

They take that to be true, not the compliment of a monoglot, and their heads swell to the size of dirigibles.

I ran an online creative writing club for a while and invited learners in, as so many non-native speakers want to write novels in English.

For the club, I said you had to have C-level English to be accepted. A Spanish lady applied who had a wobbly B1 at most. Her sample story was so error riddled, I turned her down.

And she was like "You are being wrong. I speak the good English! Native English peoples always saying me I am speaking so good! I am speaking the English better than they speaking!" And then included a few snippets from comments praising her sterling English (all clearly being polite, not truthful) and a string of insults about how unfair I was being.

I didn't feel bad. If you're too lazy to check yourself with Grammarly or a lang app, then you're too lazy for my club! But it was a real shame those native speakers were essentially lying to her and giving her false ideas because they themselves had no, or miniscule, foreign language ability.

Sportyrod wrote: " I have explosive moments of learning but tend not to forget to keep up at a slower pace later."

The explosive moments of learning are great, aren't they? Learning seems to be like a lot, cyclical. Sometimes the window is wide open, sometimes it's not. Exactly. It's remembering to review in the slow times that's important.

ABBA! Using song lyrics to gain listening skills is a great tool. I listened to several albums of a German singer (Herbert Groenemeyer) years ago again and again and again until I understood EVERY WORD he was singing. Germans say he's hard to understand, but I don't think so. Or don't think so anymore!

The bit about starting a group or creating your own materials I found also a bit problematic. It's time consuming and at least with your own materials, who is to say you have it correct? Who will double check your work?

Sounds like you're riding well on the polyglot train!

Peter wrote: "Latin in fact is special, because we very rarely read it aloud (just to learn the hexameter of Ovid's Metamorphoses), so grammar has a much stronger place in its teaching than with active languages."

The best self-study course I've ever seen for ANY language is the Cambridge University Latin Course.

And guess what? It has MINIMAL grammar explanations! Yes, very, very little grammar is included. Largely, you learn through guided observation of examples, pictures and situations.

Because the course comes from Cambridge University and was created by Cambridge Latin scholars, I don't think we can't say it's fluff or new-fangled hippie theory.

So, the notion that even Latin must be taught with loads of grammar is not exactly true. That's simply convention and school tradition!

(I'm not saying NO grammar, just minimal grammar)

Ivy-Mabel wrote: "what surprised me more than anything else was the way the language was pronounced in the programmes. The German version of it sounded like Italian."

Do you know why that is? It's because the Vatican suggests modern Italian pronunciation for Latin words for their international clergy and modern use.

The Vatican is also the only body in the world to create and publish a dictionary with Latin terms for modern things like fridges, airplanes, SIM cards and modern problems like abuse scandals and terrorism. If you are Catholic, you'll most likely hear the Vatican pronunciation than the scholarly one. Because the UK doesn't have a large Catholic population like Germany, the scholarly one wins there.

J.C. wrote: "the Romans didn't do much for us in Britain because they were weeny, weedy and weaky"

HA! that's great!

Just to make the joke clear: We might translate that phrase in to German as "klitzeklein, schmächtig und schwächlich" and not "ich kam, ich sah, ich siegte" because Vini Vidi Vici sounds very similar to weeny, weedy, weaky.

Ivy-Mabel wrote: "'Fixated on grammar' - warms my heart. "

Hi Ivy-Mabel...did you see the vid? One of the things he says polyglots do NOT do is pay too much attention to grammar. And what they do instead to gain accuracy and competency.

Very interesting - you should check it out!

What polyglots do differently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE_eo...


I think this is the big contention point with those who like and enjoy the traditional "school method" of learning languages and those for whom it doesn't work. Which is the majority, unfortunately.

Recent - okay, last 30 years - research has shown that learning grammar rules actually *prevents* people from eventually speaking a language competently. Yes, that's why so many people say "I had X amount of years of X language, but I can't say anything". It may help you get good marks on a test in school, but it doesn't aid in long term learning

And why does hammering grammar not work in the long run?

Because when most people go to speak, they get tangled up trying to remember the rule, then what they wanted to say (message), then applying that to the rule...then remember what they wanted to say...

That is -- they do what school taught them. They focus on the RULE and not on speaking.

This takes far too long and too much mental exertion. And probably will not sound natural in the end.

As fun as hammering grammar might be for us grammar anoraks - and I include myself in that!! - the key to fluency is in gaining familiarity with correct speech, not in memorising rules.

When you were a tiny tot, nobody sat down and explained to you the difference between an infinitive and a gerund, or sentences vs clauses. You didn't need that! You had 24 hr constant input of correct English and all you needed to do was mimic that to become fluent.

It's totally a case of monkey see, monkey do. Or in this case: monkey hear, monkey speak. And we humans are brilliant at that.

High input of correct language + mimicry = grammatically correct fluency.

The problems start if the input is not correct or insufficient!

Parents who speak incorrectly will raise kids who speak incorrectly ( I think this is one of your bugbears, Ivy Mabel). Lang teachers who have insufficient mastery of the lang they teach will make mistakes and will pass those mistakes on to their students. (This is common in many countries)

But also, learners who have insufficient input will try to fill in the input gaps with what they think they know -- and make mistakes.

It is said that we need to see a word 30 - 50 times in correct context before we can automatically use it correctly ourselves.

If a learner has only seen a word 10 or 15 times - the amount they see/hear it before a test - then that's not enough input. They won't be sure of it, wobble around with it, doubt themselves, get into mental tangles...

That's got nothing to do with grammar rules.

Familiarity is the key.

I'm a former language teacher, too. Adult education, I've never taught kids. But I'm not a fan of traditional school methods because they have been proven to not be terribly efficient.
And I'm certainly not a fan of the Communicative Method that's been popular since the 1950s and what most (adult) lang teaching even today is based on. What rot!

Olly does a wonderful job in the vid I posted above of distilling down the new research into what really works - and how successful polyglots put that into practice. I do most of it and I totally agree that it is far more effective for long term learning/fluency.

(Didn't have the romantic relationship, Jeanne, but I'm really glad you did!! 🥰 Works wonders, doesn't it? And YES, involving the emotions is another very important part. If you aren't engaged both mentally AND emotionally, it's going to be a much harder battle. Love your approach to learning Welsh in your class!)

Hi group!

It's fallen a bit silent here, so I thought I'd throw in something for us to chat about.

I found a vid from Olly Richards about "what polyglots do differently (than other language learners)" that I think is quite astute and accurate.

Those of you on the chat last year might remember Olly. He's a British language educator, author and polyglot. We group read one of his easy readers.

What polyglots do differently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE_eo...

Does any of this sound like you? Or does anything not sound like you? What do you think of his points?

Peter wrote: " When reading or doing Duolingo I write new words into my Ankiweb app. In Anki I learn a..."

I swear by Memrise.

What I like about it, is the timed repetitions, the unit reviews and the fact you can learn other people's "courses". It's clear and easy to use, plus you get points and can learn in groups with friends/a class. But I've found uploading audio files to be a pain.

Anki didn't work so well for me the one time I tried it. Reminded me too much of the kid's game "Memory"!

Quizlet is also okay for vocab practice, but the last time I tried it, you couldn't limit the amount of words it had you reviewing - which meant it made you review EVERYTHING, not just a specific group of words (like you can do on Memrise/Anki). It's mostly meant to help school kids so maybe that's why.

Unfortunately, I didn't have as good of experiences on Mylanguageexchange as Ivy-Mable did. I was using the free version, not the pay, so perhaps that makes a difference in quality of user.

To practice writing more in your target languages, there is the free site
journaly.com where you can post a short essay or blog-type entry and native speakers will drop by and correct it. (And you can correct entries in your own native language)

It's fairly easy to use, has a modern look and you can post in as many languages as you want. There are many to choose from - including Welsh, Scots Gaelic, Yiddish and Polish!

They don't offer suggestions about what to write about, though, so you have to be a bit creative, but they do have "subject" headings you can use as prompts.

I've posted book critiques, essays on public transport, what it's like to not be Christian at Christmas, the problems of becoming vegan and the science behind ghost hauntings. Many different topics!

The help/corrections are normally pretty good and you can ask the corrector questions if you don't understand why they've corrected what they have the way they have.

If one of your goals is to improve your writing, but don't have time to keep up a correspondence, Journaly is definitely somewhere to check out.

Sportyrod wrote: "Hahaha. When I tried to speak Swedish at the shops, they usually answered in English!! That wasn’t so bad for me, of the four main language skills mentioned earlier, listening is my worst anyway."

That happens often in Scandinavia, so I've heard. How do you plan to expand your vocab this year?

J.C. wrote: "Berengaria, thank you for your supportive comments! I didn't know about it being a common thing "

That's fantastic that you have both a Welsh speaker and native French speaker on the island!

Exactly, speaking a language is like a muscle. If you don't exercise it, it goes flabby. This is another reason why I think shining so much of a spotlight on speaking - and speaking fluently - is rather unfair. It mostly comes down to a great deal of practice and for that you need opportunities.

Many adults just don't have the ops unless they make a concerted effort to seek them out.

I don't have any ops to speak Welsh or Icelandic.

But then, my goals in language learning are mostly grammatical & structural understanding, and then teaching myself to read novels. Bookworm Lingo!

I'm generally not very interested in speaking most of the languages I learn, although a decent A1 or A2 level generally occurs as a byproduct of grammar study and vocab acquisition.

What you said about speaking giving a feeling of belonging is very interesting. I've experienced a sense of pride in being understood in shops, etc before, but I'm not sure I've felt any sense of togetherness. Perhaps I'm too aware of being foreign? Or of offending by getting it wrong?
(For example, I was always conscious of my limited spoken French in France, but I was only treated badly twice in a shop because of it. Generally, people were patient with me, but I didn't feel more "French", just more tolerated.)

J.C. wrote: " When I enrolled with the Welsh University's beginner courses, I had in mind (in about ten years' time) being able to appreciate Cynghangedd, Welsh formal poetry,"

I'm so glad to hear you're having such a lovely time with your course and making such wonderful progress! 🏆👏

What you experienced with the shift in goal is quite common with independent language learning, did you know?

Adult learners who do not have many languages under their belts often start out somewhat daunted by the prospect of mastering all four of the skills (speaking, reading. writing, listening) well. They start with either the one they are most interested in - like you did, reading/writing poetry - or with the one that sounds easiest and less time consuming. (Normally reading/listening)

Eventually, though, once they've proven to themselves that they actually CAN handle the language, the interest in being able to speak normally grows and that becomes part of the goal.

When you take a class, that's different. You'll get practice in all 4 skills right from the beginning - whether you want them or not.

But, Jeanne, outside of your class and when you aren't visiting Wales - so in normal daily life - when and how do you engage with Welsh? Or with French, as I'm assuming you aren't taking a French class?

Do you have pen pals you write, or chat with face-to-face with on line? Do you watch films, read books, listen to podcasts?

Which of the 4 skills do you use most often in your daily life and independently, really?