Berengaria’s Comments (group member since Nov 11, 2021)

Berengaria’s comments from the Language Learners and Polyglots group.

I'm so excited! Got two books in French yesterday...not that I need more books in French, but they were on super discount and I couldn't resist!

"Un Esprit de Vengeance" which is a translation of The Haunting of Maddy Clare by Simone St James, who is currently so mega popular on GR with her "Sundown Hotel" and "Book of Cold Cases". This is an early one of hers and supposed to be a really creepy ghost story. My favourite!

The other is Joel Dicker's Le Livre des Baltimore, which is originally in French. I read his "The Truth about Harry Quebert" and really loved it. Hope this one is also good.

I had on my goal list for French to read Neil Gaiman's "Neverwhere", but since I'm really not a Gaiman fan, nor a fan of fantasy, I might just take it off and put one, or both, of these on. Hm, sounds like a plan!

I hope to finally finish up the Grisham in Dutch soon after spending a month on it! Ack! Way too long, but the man is verbose.

Kalliope wrote: "
A five star for me. I listened to the Audio version while I was reading.

Soon I will begin my April Italian book. I have chosen [book:..."

So nice when you can listen and read at the same time! Il colibri looks interesting. Books about or narrated by animals can either be too sweet or really great.

Sportyrod wrote: "Thanks Berengaria for the extra explanation. I actually didn’t know about the origin of the language. I can vouch for it being an easy language though. In high school we could choose French, Japane..."

I didn't get too far into Indonesian, but I do remember reading a little about the different prefixes. Thank you for reminding me about them! It is similar in Japanese. You count differently depending on what "category" the item you are counting belongs to.

I have no problems imagining that the slang is difficult to follow. I find that my main stubling block in French, too. The standard language -- no problem. But the minute they start with Parisian jive...no clue.

Do you have any experience with the Lättläst books? Those are the simplified ones that were originally meant for the mentally handicapped and country people who couldn't read so well.

Sportyrod wrote: " But being impatient, I have just started my second book in Swedish. This one is a children’s book called ..."

Sportyrod, jag är stolt över dig! Stor framgang! Det är fantastiskt att du läser igen på svenska. Du vet, du har inspirirat mig... jag skulle vilja också läsa igen på svenska och jag planerar att beställa en novellbok för elever snart. Det är en tysk bok, inte från Sverige, och kanske för lätt. Det vet man aldrig! Här är den:

Läsgodis: Schwedische Erzählungen im Originaltext

(Läsgodis: Swedish Stories in the Original with Notes)

Paul wrote: "Sportyrod wrote: "I am still brushing up on my Bahasa Indonesia skills before I read a book in that language. "
I'm impressed. I don't mind admitting it. Does this language use standard Western sc..."

Sportyrod left this bit out...Bahasa Indonesian uses Latin script with no diacritial marks at all. The most interesting thing about it is that it is an artifical language, not a natural one.

When Indonesia gained its independence, the question of language became very important. All the little islands have their own language...which one would be the lingua franca?

The answer was to create an easy to learn, easy to use language for daily use.

Like Esperanto, which is based on European grammar and vocab, Indonesia is based on Southeast Asian grammar and vocab. It contains many of the ideas present in Japanese, Korean and Chinese, but in a simplified way, which makes it an excellent introduction to those languages for Westerners.

Plurals, for example, which many S.E. Asian languages lack, are expressed by doubling the word you want to put in plural.

If memory serves "motor" is the word for car. Thus "motor motor" would mean "cars".

If I was going to learn a non-Euro language, Indonesian would be it!

Kalliope wrote: "Hello everyone.

I just finished my Italian book for this month. Non esiste saggezza. My first book by this author and a real find. I plan to read more by him."

Congrats! Many people are busy now. Seems to be the season!

How is everybody doing?

I'm about 40% through my Grisham in Dutch. Averaging about 20 pages a sitting. It's not too hard to read, just lots of action and plot details.

What about you? Where are you in your reading and how's it coming?

Sportyrod wrote: "Hi everyone,

I miss reading in a foreign language. I am hoping to read my next book in Bahasa Indonesia but it is my weaker language so I am brushing up on my vocabulary before I am get started. I..."

I feel the same way, but I can't seem to motivate myself to read Grisham! :-)

Do you still have your Wattpad account? There are stories in Swedish on there. If you search for "Ambassadors Sweden" you'll find "Wattpad Swedish Book of the Year" and a number of different books/stories.

I think I'll read Grisham's "The Firm" for my next goal novel in Dutch. "De Avocaat van de Duivel".

It's fairly long, 400+ pages, so the longest I've ever tried in the language but I'm not expecting too much of a linguistic challenge from Grisham. I bought the novel like...20 some years ago the last time I was in Amsterdam and it's been haunting my shelves ever since. Time it got read!

Lenka wrote: "
Let me point out one often overlooked aspect of A/B/C levels: they are competence-based. There is actually no such thing as A2 grammar or C1 vocabulary - the fact that textbooks claim otherwise is a different thing.."

You are absolutely right that the CEFR itself only gives descriptions of competencies and then leaves it up to the individual to match that to his/her experience. (Surprising how many people can't do that, as most self over or underestimate their language ability drastically)

But other official institutes which use the scale, like those which create official learning materials or official language exams, often DO have specific level grammar and vocabulary that you are required to know to pass that level (or claim you are on it) for things like jobs and acceptance to university programs.

An example: if you were to take the...let's say the official Modern Greek A2 exam then you would be expected to know a very specific set of vocabulary and grammar. Without it, you would fail, no matter if you could fulfill the CEFR description otherwise.

That's a far more practical orientation for learners than the CEFR provides, which is only a framework for teaching/learning and is not bound to anything.

So level specific grammar etc DOES very much exist, just not officially set by the CEFR, but rather by individual countries and their governing language bodies. (Which are all different. Norwegian doesn't expect you to know boat vocab like Greek does, for example)

This is why, as you say, textbooks "claim" what they do. This is for official exams and nothing to do with competencies, as I'm sure you know, Lenka, but others might not.

(I have to deal with this end of the CEFR all the time for work -- official exams.)

Paul wrote: "Berengaria wrote: "From your sample paragraph in English: middle B1 grammar. The vocab is beginning- middle B2. "

I stand chastised and suitably humbled. Still pleased with the progress that I've ..."

Pat yourself on the back and treat yourself to liberal lashings of cheesecake every time you feel you've seen tangible improvement in your language abilities anywhere! (or whatever your go-to "sin" food is.) It really is a cause for celebration and you have every right to feel terribly proud of yourself for being able to write a book review in French, for example!

Learning a language never ends. You can feel that you "know enough" for your goal(s), but there is always more to learn/improve, as you well know. There's no end game. It's a marathon.

Some people have a goal of being able to read a language, but not speak it. Or not speak it beyond a tourist- basic convo level. Some have a goal of being able to speak, but reading or writing doesn't interest them much. It all depends what you want to do with each of your languages. There's no "correct" level to reach. It's all very individual, which is why patting yourself on the back for achievement is important!

Paul wrote:
I opened the original English book in the middle of nowhere and selected a sample paragraph that seemed very representative of the ..."

From your sample paragraph in English: middle B1 grammar. The vocab is beginning- middle B2.

The subjunctive in French is listed as a B1 function (at least the more common tenses) and is normally introduced after all the tenses in traditional classes/books, which are A-level functions. (Shocking, huh? ALL French tenses are A-level.)

Most adult novels are normally no higher than B2. C-level novels are rare and, as you pointed out, normally highly literary, complicated or just plain old.

I've read 3 Christies in my poorer langs and would place them all at an upper B1 level with some paragraphs foraying into B2. (1 in Spanish and 2 in Swedish.)

Just like people often vastly underestimate how much grammar is involved in the A-levels, so too they underestimate how much vocabulary is in the B-levels. Just about anything you'll find where normal language is spoken/written won't be above B2, even if meant for native speakers. (and the labels on learner books are normally calibrated higher than they are)

You can lead a very happy life at a solid B1 level, both in speaking and reading. Takes a good 4-5 years of study to get there if you're starting at zero, though. (I'm talking of traditional learning and not intensive courses or living in country)

Congrats on the testing! When you test at an A2-B1 level, it means you are an end A2, beginning B1. That's miles away from a solid B1 or an upper B1 however. It's too bad they haven't thin-sliced the levels more, but that might confuse people.

When I moved to Germany, I had a university degree in German and thought I was upper B2 - C1 because of it. HA! I was a mid-B1 at best and that after 6 years of school/uni German and 9 months in country as an exchange student. Mid B1! Shock horror!

I'm C-level now, but it took me about 6-7 years in country and reading/listening my face off to get here. Honestly, nobody needs C-level unless its for some kind of technical work or you live in country and like to talk politics or econ.

Lenka wrote: "I finished Patria by Fernando Aramburu, my first out of six books in Spanish planned for 2022.
It is a story of two families living in a small Basque town and the consequences the activities of the..."

Congratulations! 1 down, 5 more to go! 👏 The novel sounds like it could have used some editing, but 600+ pages is certainly a reading achievement.

Paul wrote: "Berengaria wrote: "Paul wrote: "For the French readers in the group, here's the review that I posted (en français, bien sûr) for LE MEURTRE DE ROGER ACKROYD. All criticism or suggested corrections ..."

I asked you, Paul. What indicated C1 to you?

Paul wrote: "For the French readers in the group, here's the review that I posted (en français, bien sûr) for LE MEURTRE DE ROGER ACKROYD. All criticism or suggested corrections to my French are welcome ... jus..."

Congratulations!👏 And fantastic that you wrote the review in French. I'm not sure Christie is C1, however. What led you to that level?

Kalliope wrote: "The joining of two words with a "de" - isn't that equivalent to the German sticking them together?"

Good question. I don't think so because in the Romance languages, it's always noun + noun combinations with a "link". Brosse à dents..."brush for teeth". That's a description, an explanation of something. "This is a brush that's used on teeth".... not a unique word that represents the idea.


German can attach any kind of word -- noun, verb, adjective, preposition -- to any other kind of word to create a whole new idea. "Schaufensterpuppe" for example, is not an explanation, but a complete idea containing verb+noun+noun. There's no indication of its use, only what it is.

Paul wrote: "Great idea in theory.."

You can easily spend 15 minutes a day with 2 languages. That's only a half hour tops. Better is to do a bit more, but on different days.

I know many people are heavily resistant to the idea of actually spending time with their language. They imagine 15 minutes of language study as this monumental undertaking that needs tons of prep time, massive commitment, special gear, and a whole host of things they don't think/want to involve themselves in.

Not true. Just sitting down and doing Memrise for 15 minutes is enough. Or reading for 15 minutes. It doesn't even that to be that. It could be just talking to yourself in Spanish while you take a walk, or fold the laundry.


Polyglots and lang hobbyists actually DO spend around 2 hours a day practicing and improving their languages (I spend around 1 hour per day) . But they are the Olympic athletes of lang learning, so it doesn't tired them out like it would most other people.

The point is: learning a lang is a skill. Like swimming. If you don't actually jump in the water and practice, you may know a lot about swimming, but you'll never be able to actually swim.

I just finished up my goal book for Icelandic! *yay*! That's 3 goal books down, 8 more to go!

Paul wrote: "When you're learning a foreign language, do you find that your reading comprehension vocabulary and your speaking ability vocabulary are two different lists that seem to be stored in different plac..."

That's totally natural. It's the difference between passive and active vocabulary. Your passive vocab -- the words you recognise when you read/hear them -- will always be much bigger than your active vocabulary. (Consider people with foreign parents who understand their parents native language perfectly, but can't say more than 2 words in it.)

This is why Olly's claim of "just read and you'll learn the words!" is not *exactly* true. What you will do is learn to RECOGNISE the words. That's great, because it contributes to your ability in the passive skills (reading/listening), but that doesn't not enable you to independently use them (or only a few) in the active skills of speaking/writing.

To move new words from passive to active (or simply to retain them in passive), you have to do one of two things:

1. actually use them in conversation

2. actively repeat them with an app like Memrise until when you think "wood in Spanish" your brain automatically spits out "madera".

This process takes a much longer time and a lot of repetition. It's normally why spending 15-30 minutes every day reviewing vocabulary is universally recommended.

The motto applies here: if you don't use it, you lose it!

Sportyrod wrote: "

Rod, did you also have the impression that the last story (something like "Capsule") in Olly's book was easier to read than the one before it, "Lara the Invisible Woman?