Comments on Best Science Fiction & Fantasy Books - page 6

Many people who haven't read any other science fiction have read and been strongly effected by Ender's Game. That's why it has more votes - there are better books, but more people have read and liked it than the better books, because they're not as popular.

Other books "better" than Ender's Game, you say? How are they "better"? To my mind, the fact that Ender's Game can entertain so universally helps define the "better" I (as an aspiring writer who wants to live well) seek.

The schools of thought I have seen put down Ender's Game do so for mainly two reasons:
1) Reverse intolerance. They don't like a political view held by the author. (Card is opposed to legalized gay marriage in case you are the one person on the planet who hasn't heard and thinks it's relevant to anything.) These Card haters' personal world view encompasses the "thought" that the best way to fight intolerance is by showing intolerance in return. They therefore typically do by saying the author's book is lousy even though the political view disagreed with never arises in the book. I have no respect for viewpoints that so utterly fail to deal with the quality of the work itself.
2) Reverse nonconformity. Remember how men did not use to wear ear rings? Then beginning around 1980 a few nonconformists did. They got laid. So then a whole lot of "nonconformists" followed the fashion trend, those daring mavericks! Soon, virtually every young man on the planet pierced an ear or two in order to show their noncoformity together. I see the same thing happening with Ender's Game. It's #1. A few people who like to buck trends for no other reason than to buck trends trash talk the work in order to appear sophisticated. Soon, everyone does so in order to be similarly cool. Hey man, look at me, I'm being daring: I'm trash talking the #1 book just like everyone else. I call this societal phenomenon reverse nonconformism. J. K. Rowling suffers the same fate in the world of fantasy with her Harry Potter series, "suffers" like Card does: all the way to the bank.

Note that neither of these schools of reasoning have anything to do with assessing the work's quality. No reason (or hint of one) that states anything substantive about the work itself is ever offered by these daringly insightful critics. "Cool people" like these who can see so much futher than us conformists who happen to agree with popular opinion have so much to offer, don't they? Without them, we would not know what political opinion to hold or fashion trend to really follow. Thanks, cool guys!

Dan,

You're making some fairly weird claims about my opinion of Ender's Game. Please pay more attention before constructing things for me to think, ex nihilo.

1. I didn't put it down. Take a look at my star rating of it, if you like. I gave it 4 out of 5 stars. I rate most modern books, like Ender's Game, at less than that. It's a very good book.

2. I agree that there's no meaningful connection between Card's opinions about gay marriage and the book. I don't ever think about that in reference to the author.

3. I don't dislike it because it's popular. I love the Lord of the Rings despite it being popular. I even like Ender's Game despite it being popular.

Your implication that Ender's Game is the best book and that no one else is allowed to disagree with that except for the nonsensical straw man reasons you list above is very irrational and a bit insensitive. Popularity is not the only criteria for book choices unless you're _not_ interested in quality. As for me, I don't need to read Stephanie Meyer (Twilight) and Danielle Steele (endless pulp romance novels) just because they're more popular than Neil Gaiman, Kurt Vonnegut, Philip K. Dick, George Orwell, Kazuo Ishiguro, and a gigantic stack of better authors.

In your original response you did make a statement inferring that only people who have not read widely in the science fiction field could consider Ender's Game great. I disagree. I have read a lot of science fiction. I personally can think of no work that more deserves the top spot than Ender's Game. Until someone can pick that work and make a convincing supporting argument for it, I will continue to think so.

I did not imply ("infer" does not have the meaning you're assigning it) that only people who have not read widely in the science fiction genre could consider Ender's Game great. I only suggested that people who hadn't read very much science fiction would still be likely to have read Ender's Game. They have an *option* to vote for it, but they don't have an option to love books they have not read. My point is that we can't know how many people would really prefer it because most people don't have the choice to decide if they prefer it to other science fiction classics they have not read.

You're making some fairly ridiculous claims that some comparatively unpopular authors are more widely read than the ones I listed. Neil Gaiman's readership (by the numbers) is a multiple of Mercedes Lackey's (I never heard of her, but I looked up the numbers.) In fact, his book, American Gods, has almost as high of a readership as all of Lackey's books combined. Claiming she is more popularly read is absolute nonsense. Still, he is not read as widely as Ender's Game because his books are not assigned in high school. Once a book is assigned in high school, it will be read by more people, even by more people who are not in high school because it will be recommended to them if it is a good book. Ender's Game is a good book, so it's recommendation became common.

Even if your authors sold better than the authors in my list that's not how quality is measured. Many of the most popular authors of the 1800's are not currently read because their work was trashy and could not outlast the trends of the time. Barbara Cartland and Danielle Steel are third and fourth bestselling authors in recorded history. Danielle Steel's books are full of errors and repetition. The vocabulary, simple grammar, and plot are aimed at the barely-literate. Being more widely read for pleasure does not make her a better author than Orson Scott Card, though your argument (though maybe not you yourself) would claim that she is.

Neil Gaiman, Philip K. Dick, Kurt Vonnegut, and Kazuo Ishiguro have always been read widely and for enjoyment. They are *rarely* assigned reading and Ender's Game is *often* assigned reading. Ender's Game was, in fact, required reading for at least 3 of the high schools in my locale, and has been required in many high schools across the United States. It is also suggested and often required reading for those in the United States military at various career points. I would argue that it is in the number one spot partially *because* it has been assigned so often.

Kazuo Ishiguro is not assigned at all, as far as I've been able to find. I have no clue why you would think that, but I've stopped trying to guess at your logic. The constancy of your wild, un-researched claims has put your credibility in the negative and left me believing that you start your arguments from a place of pretending strange things are true in order to have a feeling of winning an argument without having had to learn anything about the topic beforehand. I know this is in nearly in the realm of ad hominem, but I am actually deconstructing your argument strategy.

If you are looking for a completely different genre ofalien birthright

I was given Ender's Game as Christmas gift from a friend one year. I had read and loved the Alvin Maker series but was not a big fan of science fiction. I had an hour between classes one day and no pressing assignments, so I picked it up. I missed my class that day and didn't do any work until I had finished it. There are few books that suck me in like that. Ender's game is prominent in my mind as the first.

Amazing how many goodreads authors think their own books are #1. I'm an author and in no way do I think I'm the best. You people are delusional.

Dana wrote: "Hmmm... new to Goodreads, but not to the genre. I'm intrigued by commentary about Card. I've never heard much about him personally. I'd be interested in discussion as to whether Ender's Game is ..."

I liked it!

I've always been fond of "real" science-fition. I've only read a few fantasy novels that I can say I liked. One that I like was Matheson's I am Legend, but that's about the only vampire book I could tolerate. Missing from this list are A. E. Van Vogt's best, The World of Null A, The Player's of A, The Weapon Shops of Isher, etc. I, too, have a problem with the intermingling of fantasy, horror and science fiction. I think that trend started when the bookstores (mommy, what's a bookstore?) got lazy and didn't want to bother with categorization. However, this is a pretty good list. No real complaints.

You know it warms my heart to find some of my favourite titles here. A very good list indeed.

Patrick wrote: "I must be the only person on Earth who can't stand Ender's Game.

Of course, I find Card personally obnoxious and to me his personality oozes through all his books."
OSC is viscerally homophobic and I can't stand his religious views/politics. However, I loved Ender's Game and its subsequent sequels. While I also read the Bean sequels, I didn't enjoy them as much. My favorite stand-alone volume of Card's is Songmaster, which I've read several times.

I've read his Worthing series (which was entirely unworthy), his Earth series (which began well but ended poorly), his Alvin series (which is totally an expression of his Mormon religion rearing it's ugly head several times over), and his Ender series (which is his only series of real value).

Lady wrote: "Patrick wrote: "I must be the only person on Earth who can't stand Ender's Game.

Of course, I find Card personally obnoxious and to me his personality oozes through all his books."
OSC is visceral..."

I thought Ender's Game was really well written. It was also painful to read in places. For some people, a good book is an entertaining book that makes them feel better (not referring to anyone in particular and have not read all comments). Did I enjoy it? Not always. Did I think it was brilliant? Oh hell yes.

I would also really like to advocate on behalf of this list versus the "award winners" lists that have been so common since my favorite big-box store took over the site. Award-winning lists are self-limiting. Nobody can suggest a favorite that is newly released. Yes, it is more expensive to administrate such a long list, but there are plenty of volunteer librarians out here in the trenches helping, so there should be no reason we can't continue to have Listopias where everyone has the chance to pitch in the title of his/her choice.

I think there are some obvious problems though. Anyway you cut it, Lord of the Rings ain't Sci-fi. This strikes me as a pretty good list with some flaws - and The Mote in God's Eye should be higher. Make it so.

Michael wrote: "I did not imply ("infer" does not have the meaning you're assigning it) that only people who have not read widely in the science fiction genre could consider Ender's Game great. I only suggested th..."

Dan wrote: "In your original response you did make a statement inferring that only people who have not read widely in the science fiction field could consider Ender's Game great. I disagree. I have read a lot ..."

Dan wrote: "In your original response you did make a statement inferring that only people who have not read widely in the science fiction field could consider Ender's Game great. I disagree. I have read a lot ..."

Im not sure when Science Fiction, horror and fantasy began to be mingle in book stores, but it always upset me. Where's the science in Dracula? I like Ender's Game, but don't consider it above, say, Dune, or Atlas Shrugged, or 1984, the Foundation Series, or even King's Firestarter. Ender's Game, IMHO, is sort of a well-done, grown-up kid's science-fiction novel. Books don't have to be better (by whose standard) than other books, but they should be different and entertaining. Ender's Game is both.

7 Dups removed

Perhaps a good idea, rather than debating which author is best, is to go write something. Best seems to be a very relative concept. I love pizza above all other food, but I would not dare to call it the best best food on planet earth. Sadly, when I am writing, I read very little except needed research materials. I'm about to complete a 140,000-word techno-thriller, and I'm not sure how long it will be before I again can stand to look my computer in the face. At the moment, I have a love-hate relationship with it. Wish I still had the simple love and awe of Heinlein, Vonnegut, Asimov, Galouye, Kutner that I had as kid reading them when I should have been doing homework. Have fun all.

Nicely put Charles.

"You've read 64 of the top 100 books and 14 are on your to-read shelf." Not bad, me thinks. And, yes, I did vote for Ender.

Good list. Although I'd say 'Handmaid's Tale' and 'Never Let Me Go' are more speculative fiction than Sc-Fi. Undoubtedly both great books though!

Impressive SciFi list. Hard to argue with any of them.
Well done.

Where is Olaf Stapledon? This list is atrocious. One thing I don't understand about SciFi fans is how UNGRATEFUL they are.

AJ Paris wrote: "this list is great. it helped me find some books i'd forgotten, or forgotten the name of."


I totally agree! I am going to use it as a reference for picking future reads.

Jeremy wrote: "Is there a difference between sci-fi and fantasy? What is the difference? And why are they always lumped together?"
Very big difference. Sci-fi is plausible fiction, based on the rules of science or an expansion of the ones we know.

Fantasy includes things like magical powers, the source of which is not biologically explained by our known universe.

Sci-fi describes a theoretically possible world. Aliens could indeed be possible. But if they have powers, they need to be explained by something like an altered nervous system that, say, converts the energy from sugar into small lightning bolts out of the hand when flexed. It can still be crazy, it just has to be hypothetically possible and explained as such.

Zack wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "Is there a difference between sci-fi and fantasy? What is the difference? And why are they always lumped together?"


Yes. A big difference.
To be blunt,
Fantasy= pure impossible im..."

I've always felt that the dividing between SF, fantasy and horror was a very fuzzy one, and personally I just lump them all together as it would take an inordinate amount of time to classify each book that straddles the line.

what would be best book or a 6 grade book report

Dana wrote: "Hmmm... new to Goodreads, but not to the genre. I'm intrigued by commentary about Card. I've never heard much about him personally. I'd be interested in discussion as to whether Ender's Game is a "..."

Heaven wrote: "what would be best book or a 6 grade book report"

6th grade, hmmm? Well, if it has to be science fiction I think you could do no better than choose Madeleine L'Engle, A Wrinkle in Time. Your library should have the book. If you're up for a challenge, Ender's Game is an even better choice, but maybe for 8th graders on up.

Very good and expansive list. Sci-fi has never been a genre that has drawn me. However, I just picked up a copy of Fahrenheit 451 and that may be my next book to read.

Sci-Fi: Spaceships, Space, Technology, (plausible?)Future settings, Alien worlds, Aliens, High tech weaponry

Fantasy: Dragons, Middle-Earth-y Worlds, Castles, Magic, Princesses, Sea vessels, Swordmanship

--Jen from Quebec :0)

Jennifer Lynn wrote: "...Fantasy:...Sea vessels..."

How about The Nauitilus from 20,000 Leagues under the Sea? Fantasy, right?

Antoine wrote: "Much as I love Hitchhikers, it seems like a sad statement that the second greatest SF book of all time is a parody of the genre."

Galaxy Quest is probably the best Star Trek movie. Zombieland is my favourite zombie movie.

Great parodies have to be great examples of their genre first.

elissa wrote: "A nice list that I'd definitely refer back to if I was looking for a good SF read. There was only one book on the list that I've read but didn't think was wonderful. If I'd made the list, it would ..."

YESSSS!!! I loveeeee Warchild. It's the best!

Shame so much space opera, military science fiction, and YA pieces are on this list. And really, ender's game is on top? I personally hate Card, he comes across as an arrogant right-wing creep to me. Same goes for Heinlein. In addition, I have never been able to enjoy 'hard' science fiction, it just doesn't interest me. Call me pretentious, but I personally prefer writers such as Philip k. Dick, Kurt Vonnegut, Harlan Ellison, Samuel Delany, Ray Bradbury, China Mieville, and J. G. Ballard; I feel that the intellectual content in these works is greater.

as an experiment, I would like to suggest some books on the borderline of fantasy and science fiction for you to determine where they lie:
Dhalgren-Samuel R Delaney
the 'New Sun' series-Gene Wolfe
the 'Dying Earth' series

Thefiendfromdimensionx wrote: "I personally hate Card, he comes across as an arrogant right-wing creep to m..."

I have never thought highly of people's propensity to share their opinions of some author's politics. An author's political opinion seldom relates to the book under consideration. Even when it does, it doesn't affect the quality of the book's writing. Disliking a book because you dislike what you have heard regarding an author's politics is like saying you hate carrots because rabbits eat them and you hate rabbit stew. I have no interest in learning what some random person's political biases are, or whether they hold them in common with a given author. I am interested, however, in their opinion of the book.

The experiment you propose is of greater interest:
Dhalgren - science fiction (for its advanced technology and because it is set on another planet - two moons)
the 'New Sun' series-Gene Wolfe and the 'Dying Earth' series by Vance - also science fiction; they are set on a future Earth just like much of the plot of H. G. Wells' The Time Machine, and no one disputes that is science fiction.

Well said, Dan!

Looks like the title of the list has changed from earlier comments. It says Sci Fi and Fantasy. This is a great list with a few anomalies thrown in. I will refer back to this list often.

Mickey wrote: "How is a Resident Evil novel even in the top 500?."

Obviously you haven't read it.

As someone who has read 22 of the titles I am disappointed that a classic like the Lord Of the Rings Trilogy was placed so low and Mistborn and CS Lewis's Space or Narnia series didn't chart at all. Being classics don't guarantee a high rank, but to be shut out was eyebrow raising.

Zen wrote: "So, according to Brett's definitions, "Dragonflight" is Sci-fi. Thanks for clearing that up.
Dragonflight crosses genres. The beginning books are pure fantasy although the dragons could be argued are native animals to an alien planet. Later in the series it is revealed that it was a space colony that lost its science due to the devastation of "thread" that caused their history to devolve to myth and legend only regained through the help of a computer. Time travel is involved which is a sci-fi element.

Claudia wrote: "The only thing sci-fi about Dragonflight is that the dragon riders are decended from some hi-tech people who came to colonize the planet."
Time travel is a sci-f element. If you view the dragons not as earth myths, but alien animals it helps support the sci-fi claims, although imprinting with dragons could be either magical or telepathy.

Roger wrote: "As someone who has read 22 of the titles I am disappointed that a classic like the Lord Of the Rings Trilogy was placed so low and Mistborn and CS Lewis's Space or Narnia series didn't chart at all..."

The fantasy books you mention charted low because the moderator of this list made the decision recently to allow fantasy books to be placed on what used to be a purely science fiction list. He decided deleting the fantasy books wasn't worth the trouble. As a result, all science fiction books have years of head start in the voting. That is what has so skewed the voting against fantasy.

Patrick wrote: "I must be the only person on Earth who can't stand Ender's Game.

Of course, I find Card personally obnoxious and to me his personality oozes through all his books."

I totally agree. I found the book unreadable and feel it set's kids up for failure.

I would humbly suggest two more titles:

1. The new, indie book by Sean Cahill: Coding Lina. It's a terrific read but what makes it warrant a spot on the list is that it is plausible (rare in science-fiction actually) and costars a strong female software engineer, who isn't a stereotype (super duper rare in science-fiction).

2. The Black Cloud by Fred Hoyle. It's a totally original book written by a world-class astronomer -- imagine science fiction written by an actual scientist! The book has the most interesting and novel alien design I have ever come across.

Lily, you can add both books yourself, just by clicking on the "Add Books to This List" link near the top of the first page of the list (just above where the books themselves start to be displayed), and then using the search function. Hope that helps!

Thanks so much!

Lily wrote: "Thanks so much!"

No problem!

Horn-Horn by ADT McLellan - one of those few books that you will go from the last page immediately back to the first page. Like The Sixth Sense, reading it a second time is like reading it for the first time again. It's a completely different story once all of the twists are revealed.