Classics and the Western Canon discussion

The Aeneid discussion is still going strong under Thomas's great leadership and our fantastic posters, but we also need to look ahead to keep the group moving forward with great reads.

I decided, with the approval of the other moderators, to recycle some of our runners-up in earlier polls. Adding in the moderator nominations, that gives us the following list for the next major read:

Aristotle, Ethics
Dante, The Divine Comedy
de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment
Herodotus, The Histories
Malory, Le Morte D’Arthur
Mann, The Magic Mountain
Sterne, The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy

Certainly a varied list -- something I hope that will appeal to every taste. It will be interesting to see what direction the group decides to go.

This thread now is open for discussion of the nominations, lobbying, hopes (and fears), and whatever else anybody wants to say about the offerings.

I'll post a formal poll in a week or so.

I am all Le Morte D'Arthur, but I would not mind reading Tristram Shandy either.

I read Morte d'Arthur a long time ago and found it tedious. I say Tocqueville! I read that too and found it fascinating, and I'm ready for a repeat. And as Patrice notes, it's topical.

I'm so disappointed that I missed The Aeneid and some of the previous reads here.

I love the idea of reading Dante with this group. I've only read Inferno (and it was a long time ago), and while I was reading it I was wishing I could talk to someone about it. There were so many hilarious (in my opinion) parts that I really wanted to enjoy with others!!!

SO, since I saw the list of your possible "next reads" yesterday, last night I went through my "old books" area and found my Penguin edition of Inferno.... this way, if Dante is the winner, I'm already prepared with the first book. (I've never read Purgatory or Paradise.)

Patrice, thank you SO MUCH!!! I'm ashamed to say that I've never read The Aeneid, although it's been on my "Must Read" list for the past 20-plus years!!! It will be so great to read it with this group!!

I just downloaded the Barnes & Noble Classics edition of The Aeneid to my Nook, so I can get started right away.

It looks like the group is already up to Book 5. I'll try to get there as quickly as possible. Are there any specific "rules" in the group for those of us who get a late start? Is it okay if I post in the earlier threads (books 1 through 4) even though the rest of you have finished those parts??

Thanks again for your post!! I'm really looking forward to this!!

Barbara wrote: "I'm so disappointed that I missed The Aeneid and some of the previous reads here.

I love the idea of reading Dante with this group. I've only read Inferno (and it was a long time ago), and while ..."

You can still get in on the Aeneid; we're only about half way through, and plenty of time to catch up.

I should make clear that the Divine Comedy nomination is for all three books. Some groups just read the Inferno and leave it at that. But not us!!

Barbara wrote: "It looks like the group is already up to Book 5. I'll try to get there as quickly as possible. Are there any specific "rules" in the group for those of us who get a late start? Is it okay if I post in the earlier threads (books 1 through 4) even though the rest of you have finished those parts??"

Absolutely do post on those earlier parts. The whole discussion stays open for the whole book.

In fact, every one of our threads stays open indefinitely, so if anybody happens to read or re-read something we read a year or two ago and wants to say something about it or discuss some point, the thread is still there to post to, and you're likely to get at least some sort of response!

I'm reading Tristram Shandy soon.

I would love to read de Tocqueville.

Let's read Democracy in America! de Tocqueville.

My vote is for de Tocqueville

The Magic Mountain!!!
:)

I vote for Le Morte D'Arthur. I am also interested in reading Tristram Shandy.

If only one vote, then: Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment.

If considered, my next one would be: Herodotus, The Histories.

A "why" might be helpful to sway the rest of us?

Maybe "why now" would be the better question. These are all good selections.

Lily wrote: "A "why" might be helpful to sway the rest of us?

Maybe "why now" would be the better question. These are all good selections."

Good point. There isn't a bad book in the bunch. So if one wants to sway opinion toward a book, it helps to say why we should choose it over the others.

With the exception of Malory I'm interested in any of them. But we've been reading poetry for over a year now, haven't we? I'm not verse averse but a change of pace would be okay with me.

Okay, not over a year. But if we read the Divine Comedy it will be. That's not a bad thing, but a novel or a bit of prose might hit the spot right now.

Many people think there is a direct lineage of poets between Homer, Virgil and Dante. So it follows naturally to read Dante after the other two. Besides, if you ever want to read Divine Comedy, better do it when Greek mythology is still fresh in your mind, because there're plenty of references in the book.


From left to right, Dante (in red), Homer and Virgil. A painting by Raphael

Nemo wrote: "Many people think there is a direct lineage of poets between Homer, Virgil and Dante. So it follows naturally to read Dante after the other two. Besides, if you ever want to read Divine Comedy, bet..."

Well put, Nemo, and well illustrated.

Nemo wrote: "Many people think there is a direct lineage of poets between Homer, Virgil and Dante. So it follows naturally to read Dante after the other two. Besides, if you ever want to read Divine Comedy, bet..."

Why is Homer looking at Virgil? He's blind!

Roger wrote: "Why is Homer looking at Virgil? He's blind! "

Good question. :) Some have written essays about the significance of the way these three poets "look" at each other in the painting.

Homer is the tallest central figure in blue. He is raising his "eyes" towards the heavens, while Dante and Virgil were looking towards him and each other. Virgil is Dante's guide in Divine Comedy, as he points the way and looks back over his shoulder at Dante. I think perhaps it signifies the way Aeneas "foresaw" the fate of his posterity and the Roman Empire in the Aeneid.

I love Dante's nose and chin!

Lily wrote: "I love Dante's nose and chin!"

In that case, you might also like the cover image of Mandelbaum's tranlation of Divine Comedy. :)

Laurele wrote: "Nemo wrote: "Many people think there is a direct lineage of poets between Homer, Virgil and Dante. So it follows naturally to read Dante after the other two. Besides, if you ever want to read Divin..."

So, are you ready for the Comedy again, Laurel? I gave up before the end the last time I was part of the group for which you were leading us through it. (I'd have to go looking to figure out when that was.)

I view this as a read that requires a lot of perseverance, although it is probably worth the investment, whereas I am not convinced yet about Joyce's Ulysses, the modern novel I put in a similar category in terms of asking/demanding of the reader.

Patrice wrote: "Does everyone realize that Rodin's "the Thinker" is supposed to be Dante?"

I didn't know that. Could you provide the reference?
He must be thinking of Beatrice...

Patrice wrote: "...I am hopeless at inserting links, sorry..."

Patrice -- you should be able to just copy them in, unless you want to be fancy about embedding them behind text.

Here's what the Wikipedia article says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thinker

Thomas wrote: "Okay, not over a year. But if we read the Divine Comedy it will be. That's not a bad thing, but a novel or a bit of prose might hit the spot right now."

I have some sympathy for that view. Also, everything we've read for the past year and more (since Moby Dick in spring 2011) has been a translation, where the original author's language and intent have to be viewed through the lens of the translator. It might be good, fairly soon, to get back to something written in English.

Lily wrote: "I love Dante's nose and chin!"

But boy, he sure looks sour. He looks like the kind of guy who would rub his hands in glee at the thought of creating yet another form of punishment for the Italians he was consigning to the various levels of Hell.

Lily wrote: "So, are you ready for the Comedy again, Laurel? I gave up before the end the last time I was part of the group for which you were leading us through it. (I'd have to go looking to figure out when that was.) "

I was hoping, if the DC got chosen, to persuade Laurel to moderate it, but for very good personal reasons she can't. But if it gets picked, I'm sure she will have plenty of wisdom to share about it. Her knowledge of the Biblical background, in particular, is extraordinary.

Everyman wrote: "...But if it gets picked, I'm sure she will have plenty of wisdom to share about it...."

That goes without saying, if the time is right for spending time on DC, even "just" discussing it. I.e., ongoing exploration of "why now?" -- for all of us.

I've missed the group, (and The Aeneid). Hope to join in with the next read. My preference would be Democracy in America--but I am having eye surgery on the 10th so don't know how well I'll be able to read. I have The Divine Comedy on CD--so that might be a better choice.
But as others have pointed out--there is not a loser on the list.

Everyman wrote: "Lily wrote: "So, are you ready for the Comedy again, Laurel? I gave up before the end the last time I was part of the group for which you were leading us through it. (I'd have to go looking to figu..."

When I started reading it I sat at the computer and "googled" something from every other sentence (okay, maybe not that much, but at least three times per page). Oh, and I only got through a few pages before I decided I needed help.

It seems the voting is close, will there be a vote on the top two?

Juliette wrote: "When I started reading it I sat at the computer and "googled" something from every other sentence (okay, maybe not that much, but at least three times per page)...."

Juliette -- there are a couple of wonderful web sites (as I recall, linked with each other) that are great support in reading Dante. One is based out of Princeton and the other Dartmouth. The Princeton Dante Project is related to the work of Robert and Jean Hollander, two of the leading English-speaking contemporary Dante scholars. Yes, time-consuming to use, but incredible resources. Also, relatively easy to use once one gets the hang of the site. Some of the critical comments carry a debate on meaning through centuries. I find it very like Biblical scholarship -- of which I am only aware, not a regular user.

(If you know Italian, my impression is that there are more web sites and a plethora of other Dante scholars.)

Lily wrote: "Juliette -- there are a couple of wonderful web sites (as I recall, linked with each other) that are great support in reading Dante. One is based out of Princeton and the other Dartmouth. The Princeton Dante Project is related to the work of Robert and Jean Hollander, two of the leading English-speaking contemporary Dante scholars. Yes, time-consuming to use, but incredible resources. Also, relatively easy to use once one gets the hang of the site. Some of the critical comments carry a debate on meaning through centuries."

That's a good point. It's one of my concerns about reading the DC; I find that more perhaps than almost any other book, a lot of it really only makes sense on more than a superficial level if you do a lot of background reading. It was very much written for those in the know about his contemporary society, similar to a roman a clef. Not that one can't get something out of it just reading it without looking up any of the references, but the real meat only comes, I have found, when you dig into who the people he's talking about are, what it was that they did, and the like.

Juliette wrote: "It seems the voting is close, will there be a vote on the top two? "

Yes.

We had two neck-and-neck contestants, The Divine Comedy and The Magic Mountain. I've put up a run-off poll.

I'm not going to announce this poll to the group at large, as I did the first poll, because I notice that we did get a number of votes from people who have only made a very few posts and haven't been at all active, and may be of that group which will respond to any poll because they like to express their opinions even if they have no interest in the outcome. So you'll only know about the run-off poll if you're following the action in the group!

Which I think is how it should be. But will be interesting to see how many voters we get!

Anyhow, vote early but not often!!

I went ahead and voted for what I wanted. I have what I hope is my final eye appt. tomorrow and this whole vision thing will be settled. If nothing else, maybe someone can recommend a good audio version of the winner.

Juliette wrote: "I went ahead and voted for what I wanted. I have what I hope is my final eye appt. tomorrow and this whole vision thing will be settled. If nothing else, maybe someone can recommend a good audio ..."

There is a free audio version of Divine Comedy at librivox.org.

The Divine Comedy translated by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

And a few versions to choose from at Audible.com. There is a sample clip for each book so you can decide for yourself which one suits you best.

http://www.audible.com/search?searchA...

P.S. I'm not presuming that Dante will be the winner, but there is no audio version of "Magic Mountain" available at either librivox or Audible.

Patrice wrote: "Longfellow knew Italian?"

Oh yes. Longfellow was a classical scholar, and from Latin to Dante's Italian is just a small step. He also knew French, Spanish, Portuguese, and German.

Nemo wrote: "There is a free audio version of Divine Comedy at librivox.org..."

Thank you, win or not, I will be interested in this.

Everyman wrote: "We had two neck-and-neck contestants, The Divine Comedy and The Magic Mountain. I've put up a run-off poll.
I'm not going to announce this poll to the group at large, as I did the first poll,....But will be interesting to see how many voters we get!"

OH, pshaw, I wanted the deTocqueville, which would have been so timely! Unfortunately, I won't be one of the runoff voters, as I won't be reading either one of the finalists. Dante has been beside my bed for three years, but I lost interest fairly early. I guess the comments about needing to know so much additional background are correct. And the Mann.... I have made the trip up the Mountain and down, and, despite the author's instructions, once was enough for me, lol!

If the Divine Comedy does win the run-off, I hope that there will be somebody willing to step forward to moderate it. I don't think I would be up to doing it justice until things change a bit more here.

Think about whether this is something you would be willing to commit some time and energy to.

Thanks!

Everyman wrote: "If the Divine Comedy does win the run-off, I hope that there will be somebody willing to step forward to moderate it. I don't think I would be up to doing it justice until things change a bit more..."

I think people in this group will be pleasantly surprised by how many people in Dante's epic you they already know. It's kind of a review of the books we have been reading, but with a new twist. There are also a number of figures who were contemporary to Dante, but I would pass most of them by in the first reading. You won't be doing Dante a disservice by not looking up every reference, but you will do him a disservice by failing to read him. You can get an outstanding set of lectures about The Divine Comedy here:
http://www.audible.com/pd/ref=sr_1_1?...

Laurele wrote: "You won't be doing Dante a disservice by not looking up every reference, but you will do him a disservice by failing to read him."

Well said, Laurele, and thanks for the recommendation. It would be a nice addition to my audio library. :) Which translation is the lecturer using?

Nemo wrote: "Laurele wrote: "You won't be doing Dante a disservice by not looking up every reference, but you will do him a disservice by failing to read him."

Well said, Laurele, and thanks for the recommenda..."

Yes, thanks for the recommendation. I plan to utilize the lectures from the "Great Courses" series provided by the Teaching Company. They have a 24-lecture course focused on The Divine Comedy:(http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/co...)

He refers to a translation by John D. Sinclair, but any translation can be used, Nemo.

Laurele wrote: "He refers to a translation by John D. Sinclair, but any translation can be used, Nemo."

I just downloaded a Kindle sample of Sinclair's translation of Inferno. It looks good. He gives a canto in Italian followed by his prose translation, which follows the Italian just about word for word (I'm told) and then several paragraphs of notes on the canto. This would be excellent for a first reading, though I am partial to Dorothy Sayers's rhyming terra translation, and especially her notes.

Ben, the two professors of the "Great Courses" Dante lectures are superb. I have just two lectures by them (both on Dante) from the "Great Authors of the Western Literary Tradition," and they stand out to me above all others in that set. They have a wonderful way of working off each other and keeping each lecture exciting, understandable, and memorable. Now I'm tempted!

Laurele wrote: "Ben, the two professors of the "Great Courses" Dante lectures are superb. I have just two lectures by them (both on Dante) from the "Great Authors of the Western Literary Tradition," and they stand..."

Oh, cool! Usually these Great Courses are excellent but once in a while they miss the mark. So I appreciate your endorsement as I prepare to embark on this mammoth literary project! Hopefully, folks in this group will be joining me.

With regards to translations of The Divine Comedy, I thought some of you might be interested in this: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/sho...

If you scroll down to Ester Maria's answers, she compares various translations. The reason her answers are interesting is that she is an Italian professor living/teaching in Italy and is a Dante-lover. Her comments are illuminating. :-)

S = Sayers
P = Pinsky
M = Mandelbaum
Mu = Musa
Cia = Ciardi
E = Esolen

(The portion of Dante that she read to form her opinions can be found on page 1 of the thread)