Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion

K.V. wrote: "...epic fantasy full of gods, demons, battles, divine politics, shapeshifters, camels, and seven devils escaped from a frozen hell, though they're probably not quite what you have in mind when you hear the word 'devil'. Camels, I did mention camels? Yaks, too...."

Did I read this correctly: Devil camels? Possessed yaks? Sounds like a match for BattlePug.

Bruce wrote: "Hi, I'm Bruce Durham and I'm a S&S author and fan (sounds like an AA intro...). I discovered S&S way back in the 60's while perusing a selection of pocketbooks and coming across a title with artwork..."

Admitting your issue is the first step, or so I hear, and then joining a group of likewise addicts lured by book covers is the second...

You may get a kick out of the Cover Art Thread where addicts post link/covers to their gateway "drug." (BTW I have a poorly-maintained poster of that Frazetta work blessing the cover of Conan the Conqueror...but I do not own the book edition....yet...).

I am a published author. My first professional sale was to the DAW anthology Amazons which came out in '79. I currently have three series out in ebook from Daverana Enterprises: Lycan Blood, Journey of the Sacred King, and Dark Brothers of the Light. My collection, "In The Darkness, Hunting" brings together all of my sword and sorcery tales of Chimquar the Lionhawk from the late 70s and early 80s. The publisher is Wildside.

Janrae wrote: "I am a published author. My first professional sale was to the DAW anthology Amazons which came out in '79. I currently have three series out in ebook from Daverana Enterprises: Lycan Blood, Journe..."

Thank you for joining us!
I'm looking forward to reading In the Darkness, Hunting, which has been added on the group's Bookshelf for quite some time now. Please, feel free to discuss your work in the group.

S.E. wrote: "Did I read this correctly: Devil camels?" Well, not quite. Sorry to get your hopes up! Perfectly inoffensive (ordinarily offensive?) camels and yaks. Demonic bears and shapeshifting dogs, yes, though to say more about the devils gives too much away. Mind you, a shapeshifting camel hero, that'd be something. Not necessarily something good, but ... something.

Periklis wrote: "Janrae wrote: "I am a published author. My first professional sale was to the DAW anthology Amazons which came out in '79. I currently have three series out in ebook from Daverana Enterprises: Lyca..."

Thank you very much. I'll do that

S.E. wrote: "You may get a kick out of the Cover Art Thread where addicts post link/covers to their gateway "drug." (BTW I have a poorly-maintained poster of that Frazetta work blessing the cover of Conan the Conqueror...but I do not own the book edition....yet...). "

Thanks for pointing to that link. I had a poster of Frazetta's 'Conan the Adventurer', but I'll be darned if I know what happened to it.

I'm Willie, Scottish writer, now living in Canada

I've tried my hand at several works of fantasy over the years, and they almost always come out the same way -- pulpy, with swords, sorcery, monsters and bloody battles to the fore. It's the way I roll.

I may start with good intentions, of writing high fantasy with political intrigue and courtly goings on but, as in the Watchers series, my inner barbarian muscles to the fore, says Bugger this for a lark, and starts hacking.

The blame for my enthusiasm can be laid squarely at several doors. There's Conan, of course, and Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon and the whole pantheon of Eternal Champions; there's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Solomon Kane, Jon Shannow, the princes of Amber and the shades of a thousand more by the likes of Poul Anderson, A E Merritt, Edgar Rice Burroughs, H Rider Haggard and many others.

You'll find the results of my voyages in this genre so far detailed below. If the stars are right, I plan to add many more.

I'm working on several ideas based on Scottish folklore. My goal here is to attempt to blend fact and fancy such that the reader can't be sure if they are dealing with myth or history, folklore or things plucked from my mind.

There are antecedents from which I've drawn. Scotland has produced several writers willing to weave the country's history and magic into their stories, from Stevenson's Kidnapped, Walter Scott's romantic fancies, and John Buchan's taut thrillers. Stevenson in particular manages to provide fast paced entertainment that also educates even as you're carried along by the sheer page-turning brilliance of his plotting and the solidity and truth of his characterisations. That's what I'm striving for.

Wish me luck. I'm going in.

Longer Works

- Watchers: Omnibus (trilogy / ebook)
- Watchers: The Coming of the King (audiobook / Crossroad Press)
- Watchers: The Battle for the Throne (audiobook / Crossroad Press)
- Watchers: Culloden! (audiobook / Crossroad Press)
- Berserker (novel / e-book)
- The Sleeping God (novella / e-book)

Short Stories

- The Chronicles of Augustus Seton (e-book collection)
- Augustus Seton: Cold as Death (e-book short story)
- The Brotherhood of the Thorn (e-book)
- Flower of Scotland (print / Space and Time magazine Summer 1998)
- Hairs and Graces (print serial / Bards and Sages magazine 2009/10)
- The Dragon's Bargain (print / Bards and Sages magazine 2009)
- The First Silkie ( Celtic Myth Podshow )

Anthology Appearances

- The Toughest Mile (The Game / Seven Realms Press)
- Inquisitor (Historical Lovecraft (Innsmouth Free Press)
- The Havenhome (High Seas Cthulhu / Elder Signs Press)
- Hairs and Graces (Best New Werewolf Tales 1 / BOTD Press)
- Augustus Seton: The Silent Dead ( ALT-Zombie / Hersham Books)
- The Cauldron of Camulos (Ancient Wonders / Alchemy Press)

Coming Soon

- Double or Nothing (Buzzy Mag / Buzzy Multimedia)

William wrote: "I'm Willie, Scottish writer, now living in Canada

I've tried my hand at several works of fantasy over the years, and they almost always come out the same way -- pulpy, with swords, sorcery, monste..."

Welcome and thank you for joining us. I really appreciate what you describe as Stevenson's "fast paced entertainment that also educates [...] and the solidity and truth of his characterisations."
Your books, The Sleeping God and The Watchers Omnibus especially, seem to be of interest to any Sword-and-Sorcery reader.
Feel free to discuss or present your work to new readers in the Authors Discussion.

William wrote: "I'm Willie, Scottish writer, now living in Canada

I've tried my hand at several works of fantasy over the years, and they almost always come out the same way -- pulpy, with swords, sorcery, monste..."

Wonderful!!! Welcome. More Scottish myth/history/fantasy for us to devour! You just sent me through a time-warp to my childhood/adolescence with the list of fantasies and authors you listed... ::sigh:: Well, the world turns so we need new heroes!

Hey, all! My name is Scott and I'm a writer . . . which is also an acceptable entrance for a 12-step program :) I first discovered S&S when I was 10 or 11. My older brother had an extensive library, and I nicked a copy of the Ace edition of Conan from his shelves. I was hooked. I'd already read The Hobbit and discovered in REH a definite "earthier" vibe. From there, I discovered Wagner's Kane stories, HP Lovecraft, Lieber, David C. Smith's work, and -- thanks to my school librarian -- Harold Lamb's bio-novel of Alexander the Great.

I started out wanting to write S&S, but those first efforts were ham-handed pastiches of pastiches. Nevertheless, I sent them off to George Scithers at Weird Tales. Rather than burn them and send back their unholy ashes, he gently encouraged me to learn my craft. Years later, when I finally worked up the gumption to try novel-length stories, I switched my focus from pure S&S to ancient historical adventures. Thus was my first book born. 2005 saw the publication of Men of Bronze, followed by a Lambsian bio-novel of my own in 2006, called Memnon (concerning Memnon of Rhodes, Greek general and enemy of Alexander of Macedon). Not until 2010 and the publication of The Lion of Cairo did I return to S&S, though also couched in the trappings of history (imagine S&S in 12th century Fatimid Cairo . . . REH's "Gates of Empire" meets "The Arabian Nights" by way of Alamut).

Unfortunately, Lion was a little *too* historical and suffered from a lack of definitive genre identity. After a few hard years caring for my terminally-ill parents, I'm back to writing . . . this time, an homage not only to REH, but to Tolkien and Beowulf, as well: a S&S fairy tale that reverse engineers Orcs into Norse myth. I hope to have the first draft done in a matter of days.

So, that's me: writer, reader, gamer, geek. I'm glad to be amongst such good company!

Scott Oden

Scott wrote: "Hey, all! My name is Scott and I'm a writer . . . which is also an acceptable entrance for a 12-step program :) I first discovered S&S when I was 10 or 11. My older brother had an extensive libr..."

Welcome Scott, it's a pleasure to have you among us. Lokking forward to your forthcoming Orcish saga.

Scott wrote: "...I'm a writer . . . which is also an acceptable entrance for a 12-step program :) I first discovered S&S when I was 10..."

Welcome Scott (and William, Sarah...and more). The 12-step admission analogy never fails to crack me up. I look forward to reading everyone's works.

Part of the 12-step process is to identify any cover art or anthology that served as a gateway "drug." Please feel welcome admitting which cover art lured you in...at Cover Art confession thread

Jan-Feb is a timely entry point, since we are having a group read on any S&S Anthology. Read, or reread, any and discuss here: Group Reads - Jan-Feb Folder

Of course, feel welcome to add to the Author and Promotion folders.

Scott wrote: "Hey, all! My name is Scott and I'm a writer . . ."

Hello Scott. It is good to see you here. I've been a somewhat irregular reader of your blog both before and after it moved, and have often found it very thought-provoking and interesting. I look forward to reading your observations here as well.

Sarah wrote: "William wrote: "I'm Willie, Scottish writer, now living in Canada

I've tried my hand at several works of fantasy over the years, and they almost always come out the same way -- pulpy, with swords,..."

The Augustus Seton stories are my attempt at a Scottish Sword and Sorcery character... a bit like Solomon Kane but with more drinking :-)


The Chronicles of Augustus Seton

Scott wrote: "Hey, all! My name is Scott and I'm a writer . . . which is also an acceptable entrance for a 12-step program :) I first discovered S&S when I was 10 or 11. My older brother had an extensive libr..."

Hey, you! I was just going to look you up on Goodreads to invite you to this group! Great minds... ::smile::

My name's Fletcher Vredenburgh and I blog under the handle "the Wasp" at a site called Swords & Sorcery: A Blog. I've been reading the stuff since I came across my dad's copies of "Death Angel's Shadow" and "Conan the Warrior" back in the late seventies. When I became aware of the renaissance going on a few years back I became pretty excited. When the Heroes of Dark Fantasy site shut down I felt motivated to try my hand at blogging about the genre. I still feel tentative about the quality and value of what I post but each time a little less so. Mostly it's an excuse to read old stuff I never have and spring for new stuff.

Fletcher wrote: "My name's Fletcher Vredenburgh and I blog under the handle "the Wasp" at a site called Swords & Sorcery: A Blog. I've been reading the stuff since I came across my dad's copies of "Death Angel's S..."

Welcome Fletcher and a fine blog you've been running. I enjoyed your dissection of Chris Achilleos' covers on the Raven books. I have also fond memories of Dale Rippke's Heroes of Dark Fantasy (it is archived here). Its absence was filled by Black Gate for me.
Feel free to participate and join the January/ February Group Read, themed "S&S Anthologies", if you like.

Thanks for the compliments. Black Gate has proven such a valuable gateway drug for so many new writers since I started frequenting it a few years ago. I'm planning to root through my anthologies for something I haven't read yet. Hopefully it'll be worth discussing.

Fletcher wrote: "My name's Fletcher Vredenburgh and I blog under the handle "the Wasp" at a site called Swords & Sorcery: A Blog. I've been reading the stuff since I came across my dad's copies of "Death Angel's S..."

Welcome! I've also been enjoying the blog, and I picked up Dark Sleeper by Jeffrey E. Barlough as a direct result of the post you wrote.

I'm glad you're enjoying the site. As to Barlough, great. He's someone who had undeservedly completely below the radar.

Good to see you here, Fletcher, I enjoy your blog!

Fletcher wrote: "My name's Fletcher Vredenburgh and I blog under the handle "the Wasp" at a site called Swords & Sorcery: A Blog...."

BTW, a few of us had been discussing Ramsey Campbell's Ryre character (Discussion thread from Groupread section), and it was Fletcher's blog post that identified a rare collection from Necropress.com called Far Away & Never.

So nice to see you participate here!

G'day all, I'm Clyde Andrews and I live in Melbourne, Victoria. I'm a published author (with some mild success) under a different name, but got tired of the mill so now I'm self publishing and enjoying the process of complete control and creativity.

I love all sorts of 'sword and sorcery' and am currently reading: Wolfsangel and loving it.

Not much more to tell. The new adventure has only just begun for me...and loving it.

Clyde wrote: "G'day all, I'm Clyde Andrews and I live in Melbourne, Victoria. I'm a published author (with some mild success) under a different name, but got tired of the mill so now I'm self publishing and enjo..."

Welcome Clyde, thank you for joining us. Be sure to check the group's Bookshelf whenever you're looking for a new adventure, or participate in the JAN/FEB 2013 - Anthology themed - Groupread. Also, have a look at the group's past discussions, for many S&S related resources.

Periklis wrote: "Clyde wrote: "G'day all, I'm Clyde Andrews and I live in Melbourne, Victoria. I'm a published author (with some mild success) under a different name, but got tired of the mill so now I'm self publi..."

Thank you for the warm welcome! I will check out the bookshelf: always looking for new stuff to read :) I'll also have a good look around at the rest of the site.

Fletcher wrote: "My name's Fletcher Vredenburgh and I blog under the handle "the Wasp" at a site called Swords & Sorcery: A Blog."

Good blog, Fletcher. I'll add the link to my website when I update it this weekend.

Bruce wrote: "Fletcher wrote: "My name's Fletcher Vredenburgh and I blog under the handle "the Wasp" at a site called Swords & Sorcery: A Blog."

Good blog, Fletcher. I'll add the link to my website when I updat..."

Thanks. It's a constant work in progress. And I just added yours to mine.

Greetings: I have been a reader of sword and sorcery for about 33 years or so. I have an unfinished history of the genre written. Need to get that wrapped up. My specialty is old sword and sorcery- obscure stories in pulp and digest magazines that no one knows about.

Fletcher wrote: "Thanks. It's a constant work in progress. And I just added yours to mine. "

I have the Raven series of books you wrote about in your recent blog post. The 'titillation' component grew less and less with each succeeding book, and pretty well disappeared by #4 IIRC. Guess they were trying to take themselves more seriously.

Morgan wrote: "Greetings: I have been a reader of sword and sorcery for about 33 years or so. I have an unfinished history of the genre written. Need to get that wrapped up. My specialty is old sword and sorcery-..."

Greetings Morgan, thank you for joining us.
I have tried tracking down information about the genre and its history in the discussion thread, About Sword & Sorcery. Of course nothing too obscure can be found there, the sources being Black Gate (where I noticed an article by Howard Andrew Jones where your scholarly skills are highlighted) and the now defunct swordandsorcery.org.
Please feel free to start a new topic in that folder, presenting and/or discussing your findings and insights on the genre's "lost treasures".
That said, I sincerely wish you will publish your book in the near future.

*update: I have added a couple of books on the group's Bookshelf. Feel free to add a book that is missing (this thread is about the Bookshelf).

Bruce wrote: "Fletcher wrote: "Thanks. It's a constant work in progress. And I just added yours to mine. "

I have the Raven series of books you wrote about in your recent blog post. The 'titillation' component ..."

That's good to know. Have you read Holdstock's Berzerker books written as Chris Carlsen? The completist in me wants to buy them but I've held off.

Fletcher wrote: "That's good to know. Have you read Holdstock's Berzerker books written as Chris Carlsen? The completist in me wants to buy them but I've held off. "

I have the first two, but missed out on 'The Horned Warrior'. One day I hope to locate a copy, I quite enjoyed the series.

Bruce wrote: "Fletcher wrote: "That's good to know. Have you read Holdstock's Berzerker books written as Chris Carlsen? The completist in me wants to buy them but I've held off. "

I have the first two, but miss..."

Cool. Thanks.

Hi, I'm Gene Phillips, a longtime S&S fan. I published a couple of S&S stories in obscure semi-pro mags with names like BLOODRAKE. Since I revised some of the characters heavily for a current novel, I guess I'm just as glad those versions didn't take off.

I look forward to some informed discussions on this genre.

Gene wrote: "Hi, I'm Gene Phillips, a longtime S&S fan. I published a couple of S&S stories in obscure semi-pro mags with names like BLOODRAKE. Since I revised some of the characters heavily for a current nov..."

Welcome Gene, thank you for joining us.
Feel free to participate on the January/February Group Read, dedicated to S&S anthologies.

I'm Janet E Morris, sometimes Janet Morris. I've written dark s&s for many years, including my own Silistra series, Thieves World(R), the Sacred Band of Stepsons series, Beyond trilogy, Heroes in Hell series, etc. I particularly like mixing ancient history and fantasy, heroic themes and grit and passion. I had, in the 70s and 80s, the dubious distinction of writing the first sword-swinging heroines with reproductive urges. I also have written pure historicals, pure sf, many shared worlds, novels, thrillers,nonfiction. Goodreads doesn't seem to connect me with the books here, such as The Sacred Band, Beyond Sanctuary, High Couch of Silistra, etc., that I've written. Howsoever, it's good to see this group.

Hello, Jan. I have enjoyed the adventures of Tempus Thales.

Janet wrote: "I'm Janet E Morris, sometimes Janet Morris. I've written dark s&s for many years, including my own Silistra series, Thieves World(R), the Sacred Band of Stepsons series, Beyond trilogy, Heroes in ..."

Welcome, thank you for joining us.
Although GR connected your name with the books, I'm a little confused as to which books belong to the "Tempus and his Sacred Band" series. Most books are listed as the Thieves' World Novels series. Is the wikipedia entry the complete list of the series?

Janet wrote: "I'm Janet E Morris, sometimes Janet Morris. I've written dark s&s for many years, including my own Silistra series, Thieves World(R), the Sacred Band of Stepsons series, Beyond trilogy, Heroes in ..."

Hi, Janet.

Janet wrote: "I'm Janet E Morris...Goodreads doesn't seem to connect me with the books here, such as The Sacred Band, Beyond Sanctuary, High Couch of Silistra, etc., ..."

Welcome Janet!
I checked a number of your book profiles on Goodreads. There are many multiple editions that could be cleaned up, but given the amount of titles and breadth of release dates, most reference your author profile correctly. Anyway, I include some of the links below:
The Sacred Band
Beyond Sanctuary
High Couch of Silistra
Nice to have you here.

Janet and her husband are also behind the recently resurrected Heroes in Hell shared-world series. The two most recent volumes are Lawyers in Hell and Rogues in Hell, both volumes I am privileged to have stories in (just HAD to mention that :) ).

Periklis wrote: "Janet wrote: "I'm Janet E Morris, sometimes Janet Morris. I've written dark s&s for many years, including my own Silistra series, Thieves World(R), the Sacred Band of Stepsons series, Beyond trilo..."

The issue of which books belong to the Sacred Band series is both simple and complex: all stories and novels by us and about these characters are part of the Sacred Band of Stepsons series; some are part of Thieves' world, some not. The dual-marketing is created by the shared-world nature of Thieves' World and complicated by the fact that, though some of the characters began in Thieves' World, and the first three novels were "authorized" Thieves' World novels, the characters went on to their own series, "The Sacred Band of Stepsons" series, in which we are still active.

Thieves' World(R) proprietors claim that the Sacred Band of Stepsons novels, "Beyond Sanctuary," "Beyond the Veil," and "Beyond Wizardwall" are also "the first authorized Thieves; World novels." This is correct. "The Sacred Band" mythic novel is also an "authorized" Thieves World(R) novel in that I got Lynn Abbey's permission and cooperation to write this big novel in Sanctuary, as well a to write "The Fish the Fighters and the Song-girl" novella set there, which became the title tale for the second of our "Sacred Band Tales" anthologies, collecting all our Sacred Band in Sanctuary stories in two volumes. Thieves' World owns Sanctuary(R) settings; we authors own our characters; a cross-copyright agreement allows approved uses.

That said, the Wikipedia entry, last time I saw it, had all the books and stories listed through "The Sacred Band," which means it does NOT list "The Fish the Fighters and the Song-girl" or any of the "Author's Cut" expanded and enhanced re-issues of the Beyond trilogy.

If your head is spinning, think how we feel. Early on in the Thieves' World books, we got an agreement with Bob Asprin to write additional novels and stories set "Beyond Sanctuary," and the Sacred Band of Stepsons series was born with the novel "Beyond Sanctuary." T make things even more fun, when we joined the Thieves' World tam, we brought with us Askelon and Cime and Meridian, all of which came from our own pre-existing work and remain ours.

Since your question was not about chronology of the books, but merely about whether the listing in Wikipedia is complete, and I've answered that, I'll stop here with one question for you: we've just done our first SBS audio book and will do more. Is there a way to list those here?

Thanks for your interest in The Sacred Band.

Steve wrote: "Hello, Jan. I have enjoyed the adventures of Tempus Thales."

Steve, thanks so much; good to hear you ride with the Band. We're doing more Sacred Band of Stepsons (SBS) books and stories. The final Sanctaury bovel, "The Sacred Band" cleaned up all the loose ends and brought our Thieves' World efforts to a conclusion. "The Fish teh Fighters and the Song-girl" is the final story we plan to write in Sanctuary, and the book by the same name gathers all the remaining Stepsons stories and completes the withdrawal from Sanctuary, setting the stage for a new series of "farther realms" stories that take place "a world away," in more historically and mythically recognizable antiquity.Preparing for this, we've been re-issuing expanded editions (up to 25K more words per book) of the Beyond trilogy: Beyond Sanctuary is available; Beyond the Veil will soon be; Beyond Wizardwall is my current project. We're having great fun with these, getting the old fans together and finding new ones, giving the books covers more appropriate to their nature; having control over production values. Thanks for your loyalty to the Sacred Band.

John wrote: "Janet wrote: "I'm Janet E Morris, sometimes Janet Morris. I've written dark s&s for many years, including my own Silistra series, Thieves World(R), the Sacred Band of Stepsons series, Beyond trilo..."

S.E. wrote: "Janet wrote: "I'm Janet E Morris...Goodreads doesn't seem to connect me with the books here, such as The Sacred Band, Beyond Sanctuary, High Couch of Silistra, etc., ..."

Welcome Janet!
I check..."

Thanks. Will try to get to that once I learn more about how GR works and when I finish the book I'm working on. I hope that the new, enhanced editions, such as "Tempus with his right-side companion Niko" and "Beyond Sanctuary" can be (or can continue to be) treated separately than the 20th century editions: they are longer, enhanced, illuminated versions of those earlier books, entirely revised by me.

Bruce wrote: "Janet and her husband are also behind the recently resurrected Heroes in Hell shared-world series. The two most recent volumes are Lawyers in Hell and Rogues in Hell, both volumes I am privileged t..."

Bruce, thanks for mentioning the resurrected "Heroes in Hell" series, which has two 21st century volumes: Lawyers in Hell" and "Rogues in Hell" with a third, "Dreamers in Hell" in production now. It seems to me you wrote for a couple of these.....

Janet wrote: "Periklis wrote: "Janet wrote: "I'm Janet E Morris, sometimes Janet Morris. I've written dark s&s for many years, including my own Silistra series, Thieves World(R), the Sacred Band of Stepsons ser..."

Thanks for your lengthy response. It really helped clarifying the publication history of the series.
I have created the audiobook version of Wake of the Riddler and combined it with the Kindle versions. I'd be happy to assist you with any listings of your work here, on Goodreads. Just let me know what changes should be made (inbox me here or use my e-mail). Regarding revised and/or expanded versions of your work, they'd need to be seperated (if they are listed and combined with the original works) and listed as a series. I'd be happy to help there too.
Also, if you'd like to introduce readers of the group to the series, probably suggesting areading order or mentioning an internal chronology please feel free to create a post here.

Perklis, how very kind of you. I need exactly the sort of help you're offering. Thank you for making a listing for the "Wake of the Riddler" audiobook. We're doing several more: stories read aloud are the earliest form of story-telling, with a special nature all their own. I want to do all the things you suggested, including making separate listings for the "Author's Cut" revised and expanded editions and getting help with organizing what of mine is where n Goodreads. Your world is a labyrinth. I am very greatful to have you as my guide. I will do the reading order/internal chronology now, and more soon. Thanks again. j

Janet wrote: "Perklis, how very kind of you. I need exactly the sort of help you're offering. Thank you for making a listing for the "Wake of the Riddler" audiobook. We're doing several more: stories read alo..."

I'd never thought of audiobooks as a return to the earliest form of story-telling, oral storytelling. What a wonderful notion.
I'd be happy to help you, thank you for writing back.