Fantasy Book Club discussion

I'm curious as to what all of you thought about this series if you've read it. I loved the first one, but the second one really dragged for me. I'm hoping the third one gets better!

I have really enjoyed it so far. I am about 1/3 through the 3rd book. My friend Tisha liked 3 best.

Whatever you do, Kelsey, don't stop now. Book 3 is one incredible and sometimes awe-inspiring work.

Book 4 is good, but not as much as the rest of the series.

As a whole, it is probably my favorite fantasy series of all time.

I'm about halfway into the first one right now. I really like his writing. And his characters are very interesting and developed. I'm really enjoying it.

But nothing good ever seems to happen...

The problem I have with Martin is that everything is very grim and despairing. All characters that we see as heroes are slaughtered or something. For those that aren't slaughtered, the outlook is grim. For the lost dragon princess, I had hopes for her, but now I worry.

A lot of his writing is very dark and foreboding. This is generally something that pushes me away a bit. I've encountered a lot of dark and forboding in my career and I'm not into making it a part of my relaxation time. On the flip side, it's quite realistic. It damn near belongs in a historic fiction genre. It's virtually the history of England. So it's entirely believable!

I have read the first 4 books, but they are not the sort I would read twice. I would say that it does have frequent slow spots where you have no idea what is going on or it just seems tedious as all hell. But the characters are 4 dimensional (if I may add another dimension for emphasis). This makes the entire series worth reading. It's a very engrossing story.

I'm only at the beginning of the first book, so I can't say much on how good the series is overall, but so far I'm really enjoying it and it hasn't dragged at all for me. Martin writes very well.

I also enjoy reading about political intrigue and flawed characters, so this series fits that bill well and keeps me interested. His writing has a cinematic epic quality to it, which I'm sure no doubt has to do with him being a screenwriter before.

I'm definitely going to hang in there, because I did love the first book and I'm too attached to the characters to just stop reading.
Viktoria, I definitely agree. The books are very grim, and I'm a happy and optimistic person, so I'm always hoping that something happy will happen to one of the characters. So far...nope. Haha. But I still love it. I just can't seem to get into the Daenerys storyline. She was interesting in the first book, but now I have no idea what's going on with her. Same thing with Jon Snow. No idea what's going on, so I'm getting bored with it.

Ultimately, I'm sure it will all come together, Kelsey. Jon and Dany have huge stories that he is only dishing to us a little at a time.

I love the supporting cast, myself. Tyrion, The Hound, Jaime, Asha Greyjoy, Bronn, The Bloody Mummers, Oberyn, and the Brotherhood Without Banners.

For awhile it was my favorite series by far, but lately I've been fortunate to read a few that are on par with ASOIAF.

I'd have to say that the 3rd book is easily the best. Definitely not your typical fantasy series, though.

I absolutely love Tyrion! I also just read the first chapter that was in Jaime's perspective, so that definitely made me think of Jaime differently.

Matt: which few are you referring to that are on par with ASOIAF? I might have to check them out...

The closest series I have found to ASOIAF is the Prince of Nothing trilogy by R. Scott Bakker. It begins with The Darkness That Comes Before. While I have read extremely mixed reviews about the series, it is pretty much perfect in my opinion. This is the only other series I have read besides ASOIAF where I have actually had to put the book down and just take a breath while my mind puts itself back together after being blown away.

Other notables include The First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie starting with The Blade Itself. That series had alot of grittiness too it, too, but not nearly the amount of surprises.

And of course, there is The Name of the Wind. While not the darkest of fantasies, the story was so engaging and I literally lost myself in the book, reading till 3-4 in the morning only to have to wake up at 6.

Recent releases that I have heard really good things about but have yet to read are The Steel Remains by Richard Morgan and The Painted Man (called The Warded Man in the U.S.) by Peter Brett.

Oh, and another series that I haven't gotten around to and I have no idea why (probably due to the immensity of the series) is the Malazan series by Steven Erickson. I've read LOTS of good things about that one.

The characters I was really into died mostly.. so I'm disappointed with that. I won't mention which they were, cause that would ruin it for a few, I'm sure. But it was a hell of a loss, after a very addicting storyline. I think that's part of why I'm avoiding a re-read of any sort. So engaging, but in some aspects, so disappointing... Don't mistake me though. I frequently was discouraged with the story as early as book 1. Martin always manages to make you drawn back in again. His writing is definitely superb.

I don't know whether to take this as a cruel joke or not but I just saw on the Locus Online site (http://www.locusmag.com/ForthcomingBo...) that A Dance with Dragons is due out October 2009.

At this point, I may wait until the final book is out before getting to Dance With Dragons. It's been so long between books I've forgotten so much, even major characters. So when the series is finally done, then I can find somewhere, hopefully, a nice long synopsis of the previous 4 books before finishing the series.

Matt, as Terence can testify, I have been obsessively reading the Malazan series since Thanksgiving, breaking off with other books every now and then but not very successfully because this series is by far one of the best Ive read. I try to take a break and get out of Erikson's world, only to wander about lost, because that world is beckoning me like a siren.

Is Erikson's series completed? I have the first book and have waited to start it as I'd like to wait until the last book is done.

Speaking of series, I've plodded through 8 of the Wheel of Time series, and am only trying to get through the next three because I would like to see what Sanderson can do with it! If he has the women frowning as they clutch their skirts or pull on their braids, I think I'll lose it!

Laurel wrote: "Is Erikson's series completed? I have the first book and have waited to start it as I'd like to wait until the last book is done.

Speaking of series, I've plodded through 8 of the Wheel of Time..."

He has released 8 of the projected 10 books for the main series. Book 9 is due later this year, I believe. Erikson seems to be pretty good at releasing one a year...

Terence wrote: "I don't know whether to take this as a cruel joke or not but I just saw on the Locus Online site (http://www.locusmag.com/ForthcomingBo...) that A Dance with Dragons is due out October 2009."

Going to go out on a limb and say that date is not going to happen. GRRM just blogged a couple weeks ago that he was not even finished with the book yet and there is no expected release date. Even if he finished in the next couple of weeks, we'd be lucky to see it released in October

Re: A Dance With Dragons, Amazon had a similar release date for fall of 2008 up for a while and it didn't happen. I'm not sure why they put up a date like that with apparently no justification, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Amazon did this with A Feast for Crows back in 2003 or 2004, and they've been doing it with the Dance ever since about 2007 or so. It's nothing new. GRRM has said on his blog that he doesn't know where they get their dates from.

Matt, you're a Name of the Wind fan, so I'm trusting your judgement when it comes to good books. I'll have to read those series that you mentioned! =)

Kelsey wrote: "Matt, you're a Name of the Wind fan, so I'm trusting your judgement when it comes to good books. I'll have to read those series that you mentioned! =)"

So am I, Kelsey. And interestingly enough, most of the books on Matt's list are ones that I have on my near future wish list.....

The release date for A Dance with Dragons has been frustrating for some time now. When [Book: A Feast for Crows] first came out, Martin said that he would have the next one released within a year because he had already written most of it (since it and Feast were supposed to be one book originally). Now, several years later, we have a still-fluctuating release date. I love this series, bur Mr. Martin is seriously testing my patience.

Chris: I totally trust you when it comes to book recommendations too. In fact, I've picked up a few already just because you recommended them!

John: I'm pretty lucky, because I only recently started reading the series. I originally thought when I bought the first one a few months ago that the series was finished. I have no idea why I thought that, but I knew that GRRM was an insanely slow writer, so I wanted to make sure they were finished before I started reading them. No such luck. After I finished the first one, I was like "What do you mean there are more to come? *insert Darth Vader 'Noooooooooooo!' here*" Now I'm hooked. I'm on the third one right now, but I'm sure there will come a time when I am frustrated too.

Thanks, Kelsey. That means a lot. I have noticed that we do seem to like a lot of the same books. Now the bad news about being hooked on GRRM. Even if he gets aDwD out this year, there are still two more projected in the series. At his current pace, I would expect it to be all wrapped up by about 2019 or so.

As long as he keeps writing them (and God willing stays alive that long) I'll wait for them. His books are amazing and it's kind of nice always having an Ice and Fire book to look forward to. Of course, I wouldn't complain if he wrote them just a tad faster either. ;)

Josh wrote: "As long as he keeps writing them (and God willing stays alive that long) I'll wait for them. His books are amazing and it's kind of nice always having an Ice and Fire book to look forward to. Of ..."

Here here.

It may be a completely unjustified hope, but I'm hoping that GRRM just basically has a block with some aspect of the novel/series right now and that once he works through that, the series will get cooking again. I'm hoping that once this hypothetical problem gets solved that the final books will almost write themselves.

Well, I can dream, can't I?

Well, you may be right. It was actually a block that caused the 4th book to take so long to come out. I went to his signing in Seattle for Feast and he explained that the main reason he took so long on Feast for Crows was because he had this idea to make it happen five years after Storm. He kept trying to write it that way and was getting frustrated at having to fill in all the gaps with information about what happened instead of actually writing what happened, so after a couple years he scrapped the idea and started over.
Seeing as how the fifth book WAS half finished before he started, I didn't think he'd encounter quite the same scope of writer's block with Dance, but he is a perfectionist and he does have a multitude of projects, so it's really not that surprising that it's taking so long.

Kind of perused through the thread. Was surprised to see so little antipathy toward GRRM. Kudos to the positive people here - it's better than being all negative and the like.

But that's where I come in. I'm gonna be negative if only to save like-minded folks the anguish I experienced.

I only just discovered this series last October. At the time, I posted a review on Amazon.ca, for the first book. Gave it 4 stars. I explained that I could easily have given it 5 stars, but that since it was a series, I'd best wait to see the outcome. Glad I did. I really liked each of the first 3 books and thought it among the better fantasy epics I'd read (not quite up to par with Tolkien, Donaldson or Kay imho). But, I was royally pissed-off when I read the fourth book. I did not know that there was a problem with writing the fifth. Now, it's just fine if the author is too busy otherwise or has a writer's block. My gripe is that I shelled out some money to keep reading about character's that I'd been following in the first three books - only to realize that they're not there. Imagine that, chapter after chapter, until I 'click-on' and start browsing ahead to see that the characters that truly appealed to me most are not in the book at all. I bought the second book because I liked the characters and the way that the author explored issues from each of their perspective. To weave a tale this way for 3000+ pages and then suddenly veer away from this style/technique is just plain 'wrong'. It's dishonest to say that a book is the continuation of a series when it's only a partial continuation. Adding insult to injury is the author's little post script at the end of the book. He claims that all the stories/characters have been written but the book was much too large, so he decided to 'slice it up' this way. But no worries, the book is written and will be out within a year. 5 years later - 'oops I'm sorry, I've been busy. To me that's a lack of respect for his readers. To me there is a sort of sacred relationship between writer and reader. I feel as if GRRM has eschewed this bond, this trust, either because he lacked the vision initially or because he's simply trying to maximize profits.

Although the publishers might love the idea of a never ending epic that people feel compelled to buy in order to discover what happens to the characters they've read about in the previous 3000 pages - I don't. Furthermore, when I read a series, I like to think that the author knows where he's going with a story at the outset. Or at the very least, the story leads him somewhere by the time he publishes his first book, so that he knows where and how he'll be ending it. Personally, I feel like I've been 'taken'. And seeing as there are a lot of decent authors and books out there - I'll put my money elsewhere. And much more important than whatever money I shelled out for this book, is the idea that I wasted time I could have been reading something that is more worthy of my time.

Sorry for the vitriol. Figured all your positivity would be enough to counter my bit of venom - Caveat emptor, you prospective first-time readers of this series.

Michel, I'm a teacher, and trust me, no matter how positive one might be, it feels great to vent once in a while! Beautifully put.

I read the first book of this series, and felt it was one of the best fantasy ever written. Seriously it's in a class all by itself. I then got about a little over halfway through the second book, and something enormously tragic happens, I put the book down...I was pissed. I've never been angry at a book before. I knew my brother was reading the series too and was further along than me, so I called him. I begged him to tell me that the story has some hope in it, something good. He confirmed that it indeed does not get better, only worse. Beloved characters ..good and bad drop like flies with little to know warning to their gruesome demises. I liken reading GRRM books to being stuck in a room full of doors and trying to get out, only each door you open leads to a room full of dead puppies.

Laurel wrote: "Michel, I'm a teacher, and trust me, no matter how positive one might be, it feels great to vent once in a while! Beautifully put."

Thanks Laurel. Might I assume you felt similarly about this 'series'?

Justin wrote: "I read the first book of this series, and felt it was one of the best fantasy ever written. Seriously it's in a class all by itself. I then got about a little over halfway through the second book, ..."

LOL - Like the dead-puppies line. I didn't mind too much the 'death' of the characters - although you may want to read-on a bit. What got me is that all my favorite and love-to-hate characters were pretty much ignored in book 4. We're supposed to assume be patient and wait for book 5. Well, I think that's rude.

Michel wrote: "Justin wrote: "We're supposed to assume be patient and wait for book 5. Well, I think that's rude.

Particularly when book five appears to be trapped in limbo for all eternity. Grumble grumble.

Oh, loved the dead puppies line, too.

Oh i'm really enjoying the series, Just finished book three and staring a feast for crows soon. Its so...rich. thats the only way i can describe it. And i agree with the fact that it is pretty grim, but it works...although i have a feeling the grim bit might be meant for book 4 and now i'm worried. i really love the characters, Jon, Tyron although not too keen on Daenerys and really really dont like Catelyn Stark. Strangely enough the one person i have come to really root for is Jaime. Great book all in all. can't wait to see how it all unfolds...

You know, it's funny, Roshio. After I finished the first book everyone kept saying I would eventually root for Jaime and I told them they were all nuts... strange what can happen when you get to look at things from a character's point of view, isn't it? :-)

I just started reading Game of Thrones. I'm about 300 pages in. Took me a while to get into it.

Martin pours a lot of names of people, places and terms on you pretty fast. When Richard arrives in Winterfall, there's a large number of people all introduced in a span of two pages and this comes on the heels of fifteen others I just met. Keeping everything straight is something of a challenge. Also, little happens in the first fifty pages, but beginning at just about page fifty, when Jon meets Tyrion it picked up for me.

I love the whole wolf per kid thing, and Martin really can make you angry at his antagonists. I do have to agree with those who mentioned the overwhelming bleakness. I'm not very far into the story, and already the misery of all the characters is weighing on me. Now apparently I have to look forward to my favorites getting killed?

Michael wrote: "Now apparently I have to look forward to my favorites getting killed?

The getting killed-off aspect I was able to deal with. But, and as I've already written, it's the complete disappearance in the fourth book and the non-existence of the 5th book 4 years after he promised it would be out, is what pissed-me-off.

Aside from this, and this is HUGE for me, well, it's still an excellent read.

Just a quick question. I read Game of Thrones a while back, and while I loved the characters and story, I got turned off by all the sex. Is it worth going back and reading the rest, or is it more of the same?

The adult-oriented themes of the series remain throughout the rest of the books, but there were probably more sex scenes in the first book than in the others. There is still sexual content throughout the other books though, so if that's a deal breaker for you, it may not be the series for you.

Thanks for the review. Some content, I can handle. I think it was the dragon girl (felt intrusive) and the brother/sister (ew!) that pushed the first one over the line for me.

If subsequent books back off a little, maybe I'll give it another try. I was really sad feeling like I had to drop the storyline there... But then, it's been so long at this point, maybe I'll wait for the series to be finished. I hate waiting.

***POSSIBLE SPOILER***

First let me say that I love this series, and like many of you, I cannot wait until DwD comes out. But I do have one question. Does anyone here think that the death of both main and secondary characters gets out of hand sometimes? Especially in the third volume, A Storm of Swords?

It seems to me that Martin kills off a character just to keep his readers interested, when most readers don't need it. Either that, or he really believes in the old saying, "Only the good die young." LOL

I don't think it's out of hand. There is some shock value, but for the most part I see each demise as tragic. Some because they were done quite...tragically. And others because they're beloved characters that I hate to see go away.

But overall I think that Martin is telling a story with realism. The heroes are heroic sometimes, and sometimes so are the villains. Most importantly, they are people. As in real life, it's not always "good" that triumphs. But there is still hope that ultimately, some of our heroes (and villains) will prevail....

Couldn't have said it better myself, Chris.

Jason wrote: "***POSSIBLE SPOILER***

First let me say that I love this series, and like many of you, I cannot wait until DwD comes out. But I do have one question. Does anyone here think that the death of bot..."

I love it, actually. It's fresh and not the same old story where you know the main characters will always survive the most impossible situations.

I wish there were more series out there like it but I guess then it wouldn't be so unique anymore. Brent Weeks' Night Angel series, which I am reading through right now, is pretty brutal in the aspect of killing off characters. I'm lovin it.

I certainly hope that some of my favorite characters will prevail, too. The only problem is, over half of them are dead. LOL.

And Matt, I agree. It makes me want to keep reading as well, because I want to know not only what's going to happen next, but who is going to survive and who will not. And thanks for the recommendation. You're not the first to suggest Brent Week's work. I'm always looking for something new. Have you read Joe Abercrombie's First Law series? It has some main characters die, but it's more Abercrombie's use of brutality in war and battle that reminds me of Martin's work.

Matt wrote: "Jason wrote: "***POSSIBLE SPOILER***

First let me say that I love this series, and like many of you, I cannot wait until DwD comes out. But I do have one question. Does anyone here think that the ..."

Loved the Night Angel series. And Weeks adds in several adult-oriented, grim aspects into his books. I admit surprise at first. It didn't seem like that sort of book when I first picked it up (it was for the cover really). And oddly, I don't recall that many of the characters dying in the first book, but then, it's entirely possible that I just didn't like them. *grin*

Here's the Time Magazine piece:

http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2009/07...

Cool. Thanks for the link, Chris.

I loved this series. And although the sex and violence may have turned some people off, it's what turned me on to the series! It may not have cute lovable characters, but that just adds to the grit. After reading many fantasy novels, I like finally feeling that I'm reading fantasy that I probably shouldn't pass on to my little sis'. I also loved Martin's wit. There were many times I laughed out loud while reading! And his descriptive writing, especially when describing food, made my mouth water! I am constantly comparing new fantasy novels that I read against ASOIAF, I can't help it. I am really looking forward to the new HBO series. I've been following Martin's blog and getting so impatient! But unlike Martin's history of book/writing deadlines, at least it will not take ten years to film the season. I've decided to finally subscribe to HBO just to watch the series! I'm so excited!