Support for Indie Authors discussion

I just received a work to review and the writer sent me an unfinished copy and suggested I buy the complete version. I guess the question is, how should I proceed? Do you think it wise for someone to do this? (After all the edits, I swear it gets better.)

I offered to swap stories and received a second rate story.

How would you rate the story, solely from the standpoint of someone putting himself out there to help a fellow writer? Shall I give it a three for good effort, a two for a very bad career move?

I am not certain I want to send my finished copy now for the swap. I would question the motives of someone who would do such a thing. It sure doesn't put them in a favorable light. Please tell me if I'm wrong about this.

Hm, I would request a full review copy and explain that you are unable to review a partial work. Any one asking for reviews should not also be asking you to buy their work to review. That is a very bad career move indeed. At this point though, if I were you, I would not go through with the swap as it may be very hard to remain objective.

Thanks for the feedback. The truth is there are plenty of errors in this copy, but so far the story is promising and I can see why someone would like the book. So it's a pity the writer ruined her reputation this way with me. I won't go near her books now, and she will remain anonymous with full respect.

Thanks. I didn't realize that was out there.

S.M., can I ask you, was it worth the fee? How was your experience with them?

Well, for what it's worth, those who have purchased a copy haven't voiced any complaints. And since the cost is for a hard copy, brand new and hot off the press, the cost is actually about half what you'd find for others on the market of this length. (The book's formatting makes it seem shorter than it is, but I'm happy with the result overall.)

But yes, it might help if I invest in something like that. I attempted to research Caldecott and Newbery but found myself at a dead end because of the Indie route I took. Perhaps BRAG could be the answer.

I'm going to try BRAG too. It sounds vaguely familiar or I may have come across it while I was researching things to market my book. I got to tell you this group really has it together!

Iffix wrote: "I just received a work to review and the writer sent me an unfinished copy and suggested I buy the complete version. I guess the question is, how should I proceed? Do you think it wise for someone ..."

Sounds kinda scammy. "I'll send you a copy to review."

"This isn't complete?"

"For more of this story, you may purchase a full copy at ..."

I think that Christina has it right. Ask for a full copy to review, especially if you gave them a full copy of your own work in exchange for a review.

I wouldn't review a few chapters.

I think it's rude of the author to force you to buy her/his book for the rest if they ask you to begin with.

I'm going to second not going thru with this. It seems shady what the other author is doing.

Regarding your book: I just checked it on Amazon, and $2.99 strikes me as a good price. I did notice your "also list" -- for a YA book, there's some "interesting" books in there (especially the two I recognized). It looks to me like maybe your keywords aren't attracting a YA audience?

Christina wrote: Any one asking for reviews should not also be asking you to buy their work to review.

If you intend to do swaps, it is a very good idea for each to buy a book from the other, especially if it is an ebook. The reason is that Amazon is far less likely to remove reviews if the book was purchased. Otherwise, they look for "under the table" review deals (You give me 5 stars, I'll give you five stars.) Then, from a financial point of view, it costs you, say $3. If they buy yours at the same price, you get $2 back,
and you can probably write your purchase off as a tax deduction as it was involved in marketing, so basically it costs you nothing, you both get reviews that stick, and each of you gets another sale to raise your book on the Amazon list. Don't be mean!

If he sent you an unfinished copy, he is employing you as a beta reader. Don't buy it. You are doing him a service, and he should be willing to give you a free copy for your help.

Morris

Ian wrote: "Christina wrote: Any one asking for reviews should not also be asking you to buy their work to review.

If you intend to do swaps, it is a very good idea for each to buy a book from the other, espe..."

I disagree. Buying each other's books to review is shady in that it gets around the FTC rule of stating clearly up front that you received a copy for the purpose of reviewing. Amazon will not remove a review that is FTC compliant.

You can still say that. I was posting on the economic issue.

Unfortunately, the state of e-commerce where everyone is expected to give everything away for free has reduced many of us to desperation.

I am not trying to say I condone what this person has done, only trying to guess at motive. Truthfully, these are very dark times to be anything creative, and because of the nature of the beast, authors have it the worst.

I think you are more than right to stop all dealings with this individual and post about it. If they continue acting like this, they should be named.

I still want to do more reviews. Things went a bit funny for me for a while, but any good book I can review...

"the writer sent me an unfinished copy and suggested I buy the complete version. I guess the question is, how should I proceed?"

I would treat this as a book you find by browsing Amazon (or whatever ebook provider you frequent) and making the same decision about whether you'd be willing purchase it or not. I would also put the unfinished copy aside and wait for the full completed version.

When I receive a request for a review I always go and evaluate the book as if considering whether to buy it or not. If I am interested enough to purchase it I then I do so unless the writer sent me a copy along with their request. If I'm not interested enough to purchase it, then I'm not going to review it...

Also, I don't swap reviews any more. I find that situation tense and uncomfortable so I avoid it.

I'm not opposed to doing a "read" for someone purely with the intention of providing feedback on an unfinished work, but I would never agree to review something unfinished.

J.D. wrote: ""the writer sent me an unfinished copy and suggested I buy the complete version. I guess the question is, how should I proceed?"

I would treat this as a book you find by browsing Amazon (or whatev..."
Excellent suggestions J.D. Thank you.

Oh dear lord no!
If I want someone to review my book I give them a free mobi or pdf of the whole thing. Just rude not to!!

So, no do not buy it; why should you?

I would politely thank them for the initial book and kindly suggest a copy editor/proof reader. But explain you would not be willing to pay for the full version.

Incidentally, I went on a review site last week to ask for what was advertised as a free review. Went through the whole submittal form, only to get an email back asking me to pre-order their book as it would give them confidence to review mine!? wtf?? Review or don't review, there is no try!! (or at least, I'm sure this is what Yoda would say) ;-P

Still struggling to get mine reviewed in quantity :-(

P.S. Thanks for BRAG info; I'd not come across that either. Hey, after 2 years hard graft anything's worth a go!

@Dean: Since the offer was sort of on the table, would you be interested in reviewing IMPULSE if I sent you a free copy? (I only have limited access to the net right now, but in the next few days, I would happily send you an E_book version.)

Dean, or anyone else for that matter, having put the above posts up, let me also add that if anyone would offer to review any of mine (SciFi/thriller - see http://www.ianmiller.co.nz or my amazon page http://www.amazon.com/-/e/B004XXEUZQ) I shall be happy to send a free copy - ebook only.)

Cool. SM, I will send you a copy on Wednesday, provided the opportunity will avail itself. Thanks.

BTW: SM, where do I send it?

Iffix wrote: "I just received a work to review and the writer sent me an unfinished copy and suggested I buy the complete version. I guess the question is, how should I proceed? Do you think it wise for someone ..."

That seems like a rather underhanded and dirty trick. And really not a smart practice if you're looking for reviews.

One piece of advice I got early on in the process is to not be afraid of giving away copies of your book. Don't be cheap. Good reviews sell books, and if you give someone a copy of the first and they like it, they might very well buy the second.

Jenycka wrote: "Iffix wrote: "I just received a work to review and the writer sent me an unfinished copy and suggested I buy the complete version. I guess the question is, how should I proceed? Do you think it wis..."

In the immortal words of The Bard: Stay Classy, San Diego.

A.L. wrote: "I thought for swaps we are supposed to receive a full completed copy? Am I wrong? Do we have to pay for the rest? I would love to do a review swap but I've read quite a few comments on here saying ..."

You are supposed to recieve a full completed copy. There are no written-in-stone rules, but it's widely considered a gentleman's agreement. Or gentleperson's agreement, if you want to be p.c. about it. I'm still scratching my head as to why the forementioned author would risk their reputation that way. Especially when you're starting out, good reviewes are incredibly important.

A.L. wrote: "I'm still open to do a swap but still a little iffy right now :-/ "

I'll add my 2-cents of just say: Say no to swaps. They cause more trouble than they are worth. Fundamentally, it creates expectations -- no one does review swaps to have their book trashed. (You send it out to beta readers for that.) If you are doing a review swap, you are doing it for marketing purposes, so you want it to to be good -- and they want your review of their book to be good. That just poisoned the whole process: objectivity just went out the window because you both entered into an agreement with the intent to realize a material gain.

Add to that the fact reviews (despite what is so commonly believed) are very much a two-edged sword for new authors, and you just put yourself in a dicey position with another person for something that has a greater chance of hurting your sales than helping.

So to second sentiments stated above: only review books you would normally buy and be motivated to review. Only get reviews from people who feel the same way about your book.

Thanks for the advice, Owen. I've always worried about whether or not I should review as an author, and your words have affirmed my decision that I won't be doing public reviews. There are just too many pitfalls.

The only thing I will do is send people my thoughts on the book in a private message.

The problem is, everyone wants reviews, but very few seem to want to do them. I have posted a number of reviews of indie writers (over a hundred) in the vague hope someone would review mine, but that seems to be a faint hope. For those who say no to swaps, out of purity, they may care to post how many reviews of other indie writers they have actually posted.

There is another way if interested, and that is to run it like a baby-sitting club, but it would only work if enough people enter. Members get a credit every time they post a review, and a debit every time their books are reviewed. Names with large credits are posted (so as to attract reviews to bring them back to the median) as are the names of the takers. I rather suspect this challenge will die a quick death because there is a shortage of givers.

Not only writers review books. Readers do also. I sought out my first few reviews by looking on the reviewer boards here on goodreads and finding reviewers who had posted saying they were looking for certain types of books. I wrote to them and asked if they would be interested in a review copy. There are many readers who will review in exchange for free books.

My first thought was that they'd sent you the wrong file! But the intent was clear. I can't understand it - I wouldn't want anyone to review an unfinished work - it'd be a waste of time, as I often make changes iny read throughs anyway. It's an odd situation.
Regardless, I'd decline. Unless I really wanted to read it ;)

Ian wrote: "The problem is, everyone wants reviews, but very few seem to want to do them. I have posted a number of reviews of indie writers (over a hundred) in the vague hope someone would review mine, but th..."

The problem here is that authors who swap are looking at reviews as an economic transaction, which they see as a positive thing. But many readers tend to view it as dishonest and manipulative. They expect reviews to be gamed by indie authors. They know just as well as we do that the traditional avenues for book reviews (which it's been demonstrated they largely ignore) are closed to indie authors. So they (many of them) expect we are going to be underhanded about it.

Now this is not all readers, of course, but enough to have some sway. I mentioned this elsewhere, but it might be worth reiterating that if you listen to readers, one thing that stands out is that they don't just use reviews to evaluate our work (most reviews are pretty useless for that anyway*). They do use them to evaluate the author as a person and if they get the sense the author is underhanded, gaming the system, or has a ton of FB friends, that's it -- you're pretty well done.

That why I say reviews are double-edged sword for new (especially) indie authors. That make us feel better, but they can make us look bad to our potential readers.

* This is why you don't see bestselling traditionally published authors swapping reviews on Amazon. What you see is them swapping blurbs, which are a straight-up endorsement, not a review. The problem is that indie authors don't have a useful level of credibility yet (except maybe Hugh Howey), and traditionally published authors are very unlikely to offer a blurb for our work. That may be starting to change, but it's hard to say. But I think that's probably the better way to go, when it becomes possible.

Or... You could wait for readers to review if they are so inclined after they have purchased and read your book, which is the whole point of having a customer review system in the first place.

I have to back up and double back up what Owen says here. Giving away a handful of review copies to a few reviewers might be okay, but an entire wall of reviews that begin: I received a free copy.... Blah, blah, blah is going to be a turn off to many readers and some are just going to see the word free and bug you for a 'review' copy.

I'm not saying don't solicit reviews, just do so with some discretion. And by now it goes without saying, if you ask someone to review, furnish them with a full and final copy of your work!

Owen wrote: "Say no to swaps."

Amen.

Rob makes an improvement to my suggestion, but I am unsure how to make it work. Just to illustrate, one way or another, I have put 164 reviews on Amazon, and I doubt any more than 5 would involve other authors who have reviewed mine, and in general they were not swaps. There was/still is? a site called Wise Grey Owl where readers and authors could choose a book a month to purchase and review, and of course, authors could also participate. My view was that I would return the favour if someone reviewed mine, but in general they did not. My policy on Indie authors was and still is if I could not give four stars, or occasionally three with a specific recommendation, such as to improve the formatting, I would not publish the review, so most of my reviews are "good" reviews. However, equally, I regard my reputation as a reviewer as important, and I would never give five stars without a good reason, and I would never give four unless I could justify it. So yes, in many cases I have simply trashed my reviews, and I would expect similar honesty on the other side of any deal, if there were one. I will not praise anyone without reason, but equally I do not want to dump on someone.

Actually, in general I am against swaps, not for the "morality" reason, because my ethics would not let me give something I could not justify (although occasionally I have given one star different from what I might have given on another day) but rather because the other side usually does not honour the deal, so I would only enter such a deal if I would have bought it, or seriously considered buying it, had I known about it.

Iffix wrote: "I just received a work to review and the writer sent me an unfinished copy and suggested I buy the complete version. I guess the question is, how should I proceed? Do you think it wise for someone ..."

I just look at the initially reported issue as an agreement between two people that didn't meet the terms of the agreement.

I think the best response is to forward them back their document, let them know that you haven't kept any copies, and tell them that their way of doing review swaps doesn't work for you. Let them know you prefer they don't review your work. Give them best wishes on their sales, sign off. Don't say "thank you" in any way.

Then never review their document, because there is a chance they will be watching to pick apart anything you say. They'll probably be mad at you because they messed up. People often get mad at being caught in the wrong. It would probably be best not to discuss this with them again.

That just seems like the classiest way possible to handle it.

I agree with Christina above, that people look for that "verified purchase" on the amazon.com reviews. I do review ARC copies for some authors that I follow on facebook, but once there are paid for reviews, those matter a lot more.

Just throwing something out there, when you ask for reviews, the reviewer is free to say whatever, it is in public, and you can't do anything to make it go away. In a relationship with another author, I think it would be more useful to trade books and ask for feedback before release, so the book can be as perfect as possible. Other authors will be more expert at editing, and you could both help each other perfect your product.

Owen wrote: "Ian wrote: "The problem is, everyone wants reviews, but very few seem to want to do them. I have posted a number of reviews of indie writers (over a hundred) in the vague hope someone would review ..."

Owen, you are so wise - we can certainly learn from you - thanks for sharing your thoughts...

Ian wrote: "The problem is, everyone wants reviews, but very few seem to want to do them. I have posted a number of reviews of indie writers (over a hundred) in the vague hope someone would review mine, but th..."


Ian, I do agree that sometimes it's strange to see authors begging for reviews when they have done none themselves. One might think they should practice what they preach and review the books they read. I mean, don't they read books at all? Yet, we cannot force anyone to write reviews. I don’t think you should do it for the mere hope of getting some back. You might be in for some great disappointment.

From my point of view, I do it because I want to do it, and because I like to do it. Sure, sometimes it's not easy. I've read great books I couldn’t find anything to write about. Those times I felt my reviews fell flat because I couldn't express how much I loved those books. So what? I write reviews for my pleasure, not for the author's. So no pressure. :)

I never choose my books on the hope that the author might reciprocate. I choose them on how interesting they sound. If I get a review in return, I'm touched, but I never expect one. On the other hand, I may read a book from an author who reviewed mine, not because I think it's the right thing to do, but because it brought their book to my attention and after reading the blurb, I discovered it could be something I'd like. It's simple; if I don't think it's possible for me to enjoy the book, I won't touch it.

As for your idea, it's an interesting concept, but, like you said, I suspect it would die out before it'd even take off.

G.G. One point I was trying to make was, that as authors if all they do is take, there should be no surprise there is not much around. If all authors reviewed what they read, there would be plenty of reviews, and I assume that an author can write.

As to why I continue to do reviews, I read the books to see what to do and what not to do as an author, as well as to help other authors. Writing the review makes sure that I concentrate on the learning part.

I think this is getting a little off topic. I was not even necessarily under the assumption that if I did a review, I would get one. I mean, it was a review swap, but the book I chose seemed genuinely quite interesting, particularly from the perspective of a fellow middle-grade/YA writer.

It would be relatively easy to give a genuine sense about the writer's book. And if she wanted to return the favor, all the better.

The reality is, if you review books that are similar to your own, not only does it endorse the other author's story, but also draws attention to your own. (Traditional authors do this sort of thing all the time.)

I was sincerely hoping everything would have worked out, but to no avail. Anyhow, I found another author or two out there willing to give me their consideration. So, all things considered, even a slight worked out in my favor. I should be thankful to this still anonymous author. Perhaps, someday, she will do something to allow me to present her in a positive light. I am not a jerk. But I can hardly be helpful to someone who sends me a second-rate copy and expects a positive review.

Sigh. Let's move on.

Definitely no to that deal. It is absolutely ridiculous to have to buy the whole thing when it's published instead of getting a free (final) copy for review.

As for review swaps...I do participate (although I am beginning to reconsider) with the idea that it's for an honest review. Meaning, if I think your book deserves 3 stars, I will rate it that way. If it deserves 5, then no problem. I will not give a 5 star rating just because we're doing a swap, or to be nice, or anything. And I expect the same in return.

Yes, I can see the issues people have with it. It's just tough to get reviews. No excuse, just reality unfortunately. :(

Thanks for your reply, Alex.

Review swaps get sticky. What if you like mine but I hate yours? What do I do? If I dis yours in a bad review, you will trash mine. For this reason I refuse to swap reviews. You either review mine of I review yours--straight up. Then I do not feel obliged to temper my review one way or another because of what I want from you. However, usually when I really don't like the book I am reading, I give the author a chance to gracefully withdraw his/her request for a review. Because really, there are some things that others like to read that I do not. I can chalk up lack of interest in the themes to many of the books I don't like.

Hope this helps.

Morris

I've been very careful about any swaps that I do. Generally, I don't pursue those where I know I have absolutely now interest in the subject matter. I think people also underestimate the power of an Amazon sample.

You can probably tell within that little 10% preview whether or not the book is something you are going to at least partially enjoy since it gives you insight into the writing style as well as a general idea of the setting. I think if something just doesn't appeal to you, then a swap should be declined. Simply stating that the work doesn't seem like it's for you is bound to cause far less problems than if you just trash someone else's work in a full review.

I have yet to run into a situation where I've read any indie books I felt deserved less than a 3, but I also checked every single one out pretty extensively prior to diving in. If I'm going to hate a book, it's probably going to start before things get too far along and I agree with Morris that it would just be smartest to cut the swap short then and there. Plus I don't see anything with giving another author a private review of why something didn't work for me. I think a lot of value in reviews for me is knowing what worked, yes, but also what didn't. I've only published one novel, but I plan to continue indie writing and I'd certainly be interested in hearing about things that could make my next outing a bit stronger. I'd hope that other authors feel the same, especially in this corner of the industry where feedback of any kind can be hard to come by.

Morris wrote: "Review swaps get sticky. What if you like mine but I hate yours? What do I do? If I dis yours in a bad review, you will trash mine. For this reason I refuse to swap reviews. You either review mine ..."

I don't know, if an author trashes my book, especially before my review of their title came out, I still have an obligation to honestly review it. The response must have been honestly felt or they would have waited for me to post before they trashed me and risked my retaliation.

If their review strayed the objective to the personal, readers can see that.

If I think the book was good I should post an honest review. If I think the book was bad, I would feel obliged to tell readers this is not influenced by the author's review of my book and make sure nothing in the review is personal.

Morris wrote: "Review swaps get sticky. What if you like mine but I hate yours? What do I do? If I dis yours in a bad review, you will trash mine. For this reason I refuse to swap reviews. You either review mine ..."
I do three things to avoid retribution on reviews. If there are things in a book which annoy me I email the author with suggested positive changes and give them the option of updating their manuscript. The second is to send the review to the author before publication and give them the option of rejecting it in which case it won't be posted. The third is to only comment on the positive aspects of the book such as good use of language, characterisation etc. and if that fails simply email the author and admit that I made a mistake and chose the wrong book for me and offer no review. All this is done by private email so nothing bad is reflected on the author. Hope this is useful.

Is it really such a good idea to only comment on the positives though? I know there are many (mostly non-authors) who will just write something to the extent of:

"I loved this book! It has amazing characters and a fantastic plot. Must read for anyone who likes long epic fantasy novels."

While I see the above all the time and it totally counts as a review, I feel like if a review is something more substantial, then it should list things that are good, but also not so good (unless the work just resonated with you in every way, in which case it deserves the 5 stars). Putting a positive spin on things is probably fine, but I feel like its a bit of a disservice to both an author and their readers to post something that only lists the good.

I kind of like your idea about emailing the author though since that privately delivers the feedback to them and they can ask that you not post it if its something they feel will hurt their sales/reputation. And you're right, they may even adjust the manuscript depending on what the issues were.

Derek wrote: "Is it really such a good idea to only comment on the positives though? I know there are many (mostly non-authors) who will just write something to the extent of:

"I loved this book! It has amazin..."

I understand your need to get your feelings down and that any review is only the opinion of one person but I am convinced that reviews should be constructive if they are to be of use to the author. If I had written reviews of most of the classic literature I have ploughed through over the years and put down my feelings after enduring the inconsequential blatherings of characters with little of importance in their gadfly lives it would have contributed little to literary criticism and probably not saved countless students having to suffer the boredom I did. So before I seek a review swap I look at the author page and the book blurb and in many cases reject the type of novels which seem to have little storyline and no suspense as they are not my taste.If I still dont like the book then it was my mistake in choosing it and I can retire with good grace.

Bryan wrote: "Derek wrote: "Is it really such a good idea to only comment on the positives though? I know there are many (mostly non-authors) who will just write something to the extent of:

"I loved this book!..."

Reviewers on amazon.com, Barnes and noble, etc., are not usually trying to be literary critics. The only help offered to the author is to help sell their books, if the review is positive. I think most reviewers are thinking mostly of helping purchasers to know if they will be glad they spent the money and time reading the book.