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A question on Bredon's identity
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The question wasn't about the rumor, it was about how Kvothe was told the rumor. i.e. Did someone walk up to Kvothe and say "Hey, I heard Bredon conducts pagan rituals" or did someone walk up to Kvothe and say "Hey, I heard the Duke of such-and-such" conducts pagan rituals. In the latter case, Kvothe would now know some information about Bredon that we the readers don't know.
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It must have referenced him by name. Occam's Razor I think.
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I would assume they addressed him as Bredon. Bredon introduces himself as such to Kvothe, I think it's a safe assumption he does so with most people. The further up in hierarchy a person is the more comfortable they would be with calling him such minus title. Really Kvothe is as low as it gets and he's calling him a name without title, it stands to reason people who have known him longer and are more comfortable with him are doing the same. Also, if they did reference him by title, a title Kvothe admittedly doesn't know, then how would Kvothe ever have associated the rumor with his character?
I know many people have suggested that Bredon is actually the Duke (or whatever title) of the Bredon area, where Bredon Beer is brewed. But we don't really have a ton of back up for that.
I agree with Chris that Occam's Razor would point to the idea everyone calls him Bredon - minus title.
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I don't have a good answer to Bill's question. The easiest explanation is that the paper read "Bredon conducts..." On the other hand, the character is a literal mystery pinata that I doubt is gonna fade unwhacked in the sun of book three.
Chris wrote: "The rumour was in those pages that the nobles kept dropping off for him as he was trying to discover more about the Lackless family.It must have referenced him by name. Occam's Razor I think."
Possibly, BUT...if the rumors were passed to Kvothe with only names and no other identifying information, how exactly is he supposed to write his fictitious book? Especially given that the people passing them KNOW he is new to the area and that just first names would be pretty much meaningless to him.
Maybe Bredon is so infamous he is known simply as Bredon. Like Maddonna. Or the Devil.
Ashley wrote: "Maybe Bredon is so infamous he is known simply as Bredon. Like Maddonna. Or the Devil."Hmm...I've been pronouncing his name like BRED-en. Emphasis on the first syllable. Maybe it's more like bred-ON like LeBron (James).
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LOL - that would be awesome.
And if he is the one whose behind the infamous beer label, I think a possiblity.
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Is it? I also pronounce it with the brogue.
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2nd that. Definitly more braid than bree on the audio disks I have.
I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest this, but what if Bredon is Denna's secret patron? They both use a cane, they are both working their way up the Maer's court, they both disappear for days at a time and, oviously, they are both very secretive.I have a feeling this might be a pretty popular and unoriginal theory, but I've only finished reading The Wise Man's Fear last night so I'm late to the party.
In any case, I'm sure there's more to his character.
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There are really a lot of possiblities for Denna's patron, and he's not my favorite choice, but it is a good theory with tons of support.
Amber wrote: "Hey Johnny - its actually a hugely popular theory, it's discussed at length in the "Bredon" character thread.There are really a lot of possiblities for Denna's patron, and he's not my favorite ch..."
I thought so. Anyways, thanks for the info! I haven't seen that particular thread.
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Mighty kind of you, ma'am. Thank you!
Was pointed towards the TOR forums and found this:"JohnPoint:
What if Bredon is the Earl of Baedyn-Bryt?
a) We’ve located Newarre in northwest Vintas, with some degree of certainty.
b) Chronicler was heading to see the Earl of Braedyn-Bryt, whose estates are located within 3-4 days’ travel of Newarre, thus also in northern Vintas.
c) There is a town of Baedyn, where Chronicler was thinking of being able to get a new horse.
d) There is a town (place location?) of Bredon, where they brew beer that is consumed in the Small Kingdoms.
e) The Small Kingdoms are located adjacent to northwestern Vintas, thus near where we’ve located Newarre.
f) Bredon (person) is a highly placed noble in Vintas—potentially an Earl—and has estates in northern Vintas, not too far from where Newarre is located.
g) “Bredon” and “Baedyn-Bryt” are rather similarly pronounced—condensing it to two syllables from three, and a transfer of the consonate “r” from the end to the first syllable makes them virtually identical.
So, perhaps Bredon is the Earl of Baedyn-Bryt, and Kvothe chose Newarre partially to be relatively close to him, for good or for evil. This could be applied to anyone’s pet theory about Bredon. (If he’s Master Ash, K chose the location for revenge-ish intentions. If he’s a “friend” of Kvothe—Amyr, Fae, or whatever—the location may have been chosen for future support.)
Sidenote, wasn’t Baedyn-Bryt formerly a Lackless posession/title? Does that support Bredon being Aculeus Lackless? Thoughts?"
Interesting stuff.
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b) He's heading to Treya; three days from Newarre. And yah.
c) (sp) Baedn
d) Inconclusive. Surly, for example, is brewed in Brooklyn Center.
e) -ish
f) Inconclusive but probable. Probably not an Earl.
g) They are pronounced similarly
I actually like the part about Aculeus Lackless, even though I don't think the rest of that particular line of speculation bears on it one way or another. Bredon's one of three people in the books with brown eyes: Meluan, Bredon, and Denna. At the moment, forced to place my bet and wait it out, I'd say Bredon's Aculeus and Denna's Netalia. Mind changes from time to time, though.
thistlepong wrote: At the moment, forced to place my bet and wait it out, I'd say Bredon's Aculeus and Denna's Netalia. "Not sure how you figure Denna being Netalia as she is supposed to be the eldest Lackless (Her leaving made Meluan the heir), therefore older than Meluan. Seems kind of impossible it's Denna. All evidense still points to Kvothes mom. I still figure Denna is Ambrose's sister though.
Love the Bredon-Baedn theory though.
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There's nothing in the text explaining the relative ages of Meluan and Netalia. If anything, "young Netalia" would suggest she's the more youthful. The clues for Laurian are a terrible poem and previous nobility. On the other hand Pat uses the exact same descriptions for Denna's neck, eyes, jaw, and lips as Meluan's. Similar but inexact descriptions are used for hair and poise. Definitely not impossible. More ambiguous than most folks are willing to accept. I'd put my bet there 'cause I'd get great odds.
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Jason, I don't think it's likely that Denna is Ambrose's sister. Can't find any direct evidence to refute it, though. That would be one heck of a plot twist, though.Thistlepong, there is something very clear in the text that states the relative age of Netalia and Meluan. Find the chapter where Kvothe lists the gossip that he has learned about the court.
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...how can a family thrive when the eldest heir forsakes all family duty?
and later...
"...I read that young Netalia Lackless had run away with a troupe of traveling performers. Her parents had disowned her, of course, leaving Meluan the only heir to the Lackless lands."
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Do we have an approximate age for any of these characters?
Specifically, How close in age are Meluan and Denna? I think it's pretty well established Laurian is older than both right?
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It's almost as though it was all carefully omitted. Kvothe's first impression of Denna is, like, eighteen once you've worked out the word problem. Then her apparent age kinda varies. Meluan's age isn't given or even alluded to. Folks tend to estimate Laurian's age and add some to that and call it definitive. Laurian should be, like 26-7 when she dies to avoid Wisconsin's statutory clause.
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I didn't think they gave a difinitive age. Though I think it's safe to assume that Laurian would be older than at least Denna, since she is similar in age to Kvothe (a few years older most likely)
Hard to say with Meluan. I always picture the Maer as kinda old, approaching middle age, which gave me an impression at first, that Meluan was someting of a spinster...however, subsequent reads later led me to think differently, due to the way she acts when she first meets Kvothe.
I'm sure it was carefully ommitted! Really we only need to estimate the ages of Meluan and Denna, both of which seems rather impossible.
Going back to the rumour about Bredon, is there any reason Kvothe doesn't believe they are true, other than that he likes the man?The only explanation I could find was that the rumours were too detailed to be true (people must have stolen them from some play!)
First, I must say how pleased I am to find this discussion board!So after reading and re-reading these books, I had this dark epiphany about Bredon. Reading through many posts and theories, I see that others have voiced this opinion, but I am fearful that Denna's patron is Bredon.
There were several key phrases. One was when Kvothe met Bredon. His colours are “ash grey and dark charcoal.”
He mentions about taking dancing.
Denna is amused about how appropriate "Master Ash" is for a name. She talks about the fact that he patron is light on his feet...
Just seems to fit.
Not to mention that Rothfuss and Joss Whedon have a great deal in common. You know, the ability to endear us to a character and either kill him off or betray what we thought the character was to us.
And I do mean that in the most loving way. ^_^
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There is plenty of support for him and Cinder they seem the obvious choices.
The more I read the books though, and the more I read theories about the possiblities. The more I'm personally holding out for Maer Alveron myself.
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Ash - Cinder, pretty similar.
Denna meets her patron at the Eolian on the day Kvothe is supposed to meet her for a date, on that day Deoch tells Kvothe she left with a gentlemen whose hair was white.
Afterward Denna begins to have connections with The Chandrian, through song and also through appearances.
She says her patron is a historian, which Cinder could easily fit into. He is also extremely secretive.
Denna's patron has a cane, which is a new device he uses. Cinder could possibly have a cane after being shot in the leg by Martin during the Battle with Bandits.
There is probably more, but that is the gist.
I think Maer Alveron would be a nice touch though.
He is also extremely secretive as we've seen through his interactions with Kvothe.
His hair is also greying.
His lands have numerous quantity of Ash Tree's growing on it. I believe this is mentioned when in his gardens. Also Master Ash - M.A., Maer Alveron - M.A.
He is clearly interested in history and folkloric groups such as the Amyr, most probably this would then include the Chandrian.
Maer Alveron could have easily travelled, up until the point he disapears (during the break between books) which fits the timeline of his illness setting in.
He's a part of Vintas Nobility which Denna suggests her patron involves himself with.
He recently acquired a cane he must use to get around after his poisoning.
Denna suspiciously does not believe Kvothe when told that Maer Alveron is his patron.
Another point I haven't researched well, but that someone else pointed out to me, was that Denna is described more than once as wearing Maer Alveron's colors after she has a patron.
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One reason some people don't support the Bredon theory is that Bredon is a known add on to the original manuscript.
Pat has mentioned that there was originally no Auri, Bredon, or Vashet. As well as no frame story. (Meaning, any characters based solely out of the frame weren't in the original manuscript) That I can distinctly remember.
On the other hand, I'm not sure he (Bredon) should be ruled out simply because of that. Pat spends years editing these books, and some of his chapters were more or less outlines than real writing. So adding in a character to the plot wouldn't be that extremely difficult or change up the story too much.
I dislike the "frame character" dismissal. I think of PRs writing as a good soup. Deep and complex flavors. It takes time to simmer, components added at different times. But the end result is a masterpiece. As point in fact- that he added these characters tells me, they serve a bigger purpose then the original “cast”. These characters have a specific purpose. They were brought in to facilitate a particular mechanism to the plot.
When Kvothe and Bredon first meet, Kvothe notes three things with specificity about Bredon's appearance. 1)His Colors: "ash grey and dark charcoal"
2)His hair and beard: "pure white, and all cut to the same length"
3)His walking stick: which has "a polished silver handle wrought in the shape of a snarling wolf's head"
The first two match Denna's patron for reasons stated in previous posts. I'll just add that we know that he carries a walking stick as well, because the Cthaeh tells Kvothe that Denna's patron beats her with his walking stick.
In the past I was of the mind that, Bredon wasn’t Denna’s patron. However, as of late I have started putting all the characters into their places. How does each character fit into the overall narrative of the story? What is their purpose.Is Bredon’s only purpose to explain to the reader the social mechanics of the Maer court? Doesn’t jive with me either. So I I’m leaning toward him as her Patron again. Not based off of the story, but the mechanics of the story. He fits the bill. A bit cheap perhaps, but he fits.
This is pure speculation but I've always thought Bredon was added so that Cinder=Master Ash wasn't so obvious. Bredon is such a neat fit for Denna's patron, a little too neat, and we only see him a few times in Severen. If PR wanted to throw us off the trail, adding Bredon's character would be a relatively simple way to do it.
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Though admittedly that could be wrong, its a good solid theory and there is nothing to disprove it from what I've seen.
I think that Bredon is Fea. When he gives Kvothe the rings he says "these are yours without obligation, let, or lien. A freely given gift" and when Bast gives the Chronicler the crown of holly he says " Here. It is a freely given gift. I offer it without obligation, let, or lien" From other books I have read you are not supposed to accept a gift from a Fae creature. Can't remember why but I have a vague memory of this term being used in other books when a Fea creature is offering a gift. That added to the rumor that Kvothe received about Bredon preforming pagan rituals in the woods. maybe he is Bast's father? Also Felurian already knows how to play tak. Maybe tak is a fae game.
Nice catch, Amy. I didn't think about that. But he seems widely known. Perhaps part fae, since his family is known? Or maybe he has connections to fae? It also could be he was joking, too.
In my current re-read of WMF, the thing that stands out to me the most is that upon introducing himself to Kvothe, he states, "You may call me Bredon." Especially in a world where names hold such power, this strikes me as a little more blatant than just an introduction. I think Pat likes making us work over-hard to come up with questions we'll never have the answers to. I have a feeling that several things we feel are significant are going to end up falling by the wayside.
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Cheyene, I like the idea, he might have some experience with naming that makes me think.
Love Amy's theory, especially Bredon being Bast's father.
I still think that Brandon is Dennas patron, is that a possibility?
Very nice catch Amy! I too have heard in various myths that you don't want to take gifts from the fae and that you have to be very, very, very specific when making deals with them. Honestly, these books have me rethinking and looking into things so much, I wouldn't be surprised if Bredon was Master Elodin in disguise after changing his name (joking, but only a little). It seems like it would be too tidy for Bredon to be Denna's patron, however his seeing interest in Kvothe makes me wonder if he is, and he is playing a game scheme with the two of them as pieces to be moved around. I'm also not entirely sure that Denna's patron is using a cane to beat her in an abusive manner.
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It's pretty subjective since we know so little about Master Ash, and really we don't know much about Bredon even. You sorta just have to go with your gut a bit.
I think the most popular theories are Bredon and Cinder, but I've been seeing a bit of Caudicus bearing mention as well.
Then their is the ever lovely ultimate trifecta of Bredon is Ash who is Cinder. (oi *smh*)
@Denise - I have to agree that Denna's patron is not necessarily beating her abusively. I mean, this is information from Ctheah. Denna could be doing hard body training and the reason she thinks of Kvothe is because she intends to kick his ass if she has too. I mean, all the information from Ctheah is pretty dangerous and can be taken in so many different ways. It pretty much relies on someone jumping to conclusions.
I have been re-reading some chapters and a few more things jump out at me, all of them leaving me more confused than before:- Bredon goes on this pretty long spill about how sometimes people are two people (as in one person, two titles). I can not help but think that such a discussion would lead to something down the road. Perhaps Bredon is a member of the Maer's court but holds a more powerful position elsewhere.
- Denna mentions that her patron hints at having connections with the Maer (though this may apply to Caudicus too, and Caudicus is also shown to be somewhat arrogant and prideful, and also, Caudicus is mentioned by the Maer as being knowledgeable on genealogies.)
- Mamet is surprisingly light on his feet (re-reading has me grasping at every straw I can find, and I do believe he is gray-haired)
- I realized I way over-estimated the age of Meluan Lackless. I thought of the Maer as 50, not 40 and therefore assumed Meluan was late 20's/early 30's. However, with the Maer at 40, I could see her as early twenties and even late teens.
- I'm not sure the mention of the elder heir leaving their duties applies to the modern Lackless family.
- I wonder what Denna rebraids her hair as (if she always uses Yllish knots) when arguing with Kvothe about her patron
- Bredon's teaching of tak to Kvothe, especially where he talks about "playing a beautiful game" being the only thing that really matters, makes me think he is trying to teach Kvothe more than maneuvering in court politics. It ties into the game itself being more important that winning, but it also suggests to me that Bredon may be playing such a game with human pieces himself.
I am spinning in circles trying to figure out what may be going on regarding Bredon and Denna's patron.
However, while he's gathering stories about the noble families, he hears many rumors. Kvothe admits that he heard one rumor about Bredon. It strikes me as unlikely that whoever told Kvothe this rumor used Bredon's name because it just seems too intimate. I think it was more likely that the story as Kvothe heard it probably referenced Bredon's title than his name. However, per the story, Kvothe doesn't know Bredon's rank and title, so how would he have associated the rumor with Bredon?
In a nutshell:
Kvothe heard a rumor about Bredon. Either this rumor referenced Bredon by name (unlikely, imo) or it used his title. If the latter, then Kvothe actually knows more about Bredon than we are led to believe.