The Sword and Laser discussion

So I read Memory, Sorrow and Thorn and loved them, then I read War of the Flowers and loved that too. So when I saw Tad Williams had a new series and that it was sci-fi I was really excited. I started Otherland and to be honest I was bored out of my skull and although I'm something of a completist couldn't make myself go on after slogging my way through the first book.

I have recently discovered that the series gets lots of love. I was wondering if an Otherland fan could tell me what I'm missing.

I enjoyed the series. I admit it started a little slow but I was intrigued by the main character and then the other characters and I kept wanting to figure out the mysteries. Every time I got some nibble to put the story together, it drew me in more. The middle books had some issues (typical to many middle books) but I liked the books that Williams referenced, so I was able to get through. The final book kept some new mysteries coming, though the end was a bit silly. I like cyberpunk and I thought that in addition to having interesting characters that I cared about, the worlds were fun. And the prescience was amazing...

But they're probably not for everybody. I listened to the audiobook, which allowed me to get lost in the worlds.

It might just be that it's too modern a setting to grab you, or the pacing doesn't fit what you were expecting? It does sound like a cyber-thriller but really it's an epic (urban) fantasy.

Or maybe it's how many different characters he's juggling - it's hard to get attached to any of them for a while, maybe not until you start to see the threads starting to weave together.

It does get more "fantasy" feeling and I really liked the huge cast once I got them sorted out and saw how they had parts to play. Once they all get into the Otherland it starts to make more sense.

Anyway, I was intrigued right from the start and it really spoke to me, the VR felt very real and imaginative and I totally wanted to experience that. I think it really bogs down in the third book, then it gets crazy at the end of the last one.

I have to be in the right mood to read his books - they move very slowly, usually a bit melancholy, and he uses a lot of description. But when I'm in the right mood, I love that stuff.

It's not just you, although in all honesty I'm not sure why you bounced off this series and not Memory, Sorrow And Thorn. His style in both series is that of the slow-build, very detailed, character-centric epic. In my personal opinion both of these two series are fantastic, and I'm always curious as to why they don't get more love when stuff like ASOIAF and WOT are so huge. I've also noticed, though, that Memory, Sorrow And Thorn seems to be the more well-known of Wlliams' series, and of the people I personally know who I tried to get to read Otherland, not a single one of them actually finished it. My wife actually got about halfway through the last book, Sea of Silver Light, a couple of times and lost interest both times.

I don't get it.

I have the book sitting on a shelf somewhere. Only TW I've every tried and bounced off it hard. I think (it's been awhile) that what bored me was that I was being asked to care about a lot of characters with fairly little plot. I should probably try it again... it's been years.

It's not just you - repeated! I made it through the first, started the second and couldn't hack it anymore. That was over ten years ago though, so its un my "retry" list, but buried at the moment.

Personally I enjoyed Otherland more than Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. Simple reason being it's much more imaginative than the straight forward epic fantasy.

As Terpkristin pointed out, it's amazing how Williams's vision of VR plays out considering it was written in 1996. Many of the worlds he built in that VR universe are hard to forget.

I don't get the lack of love either. When people discuss cyberpunk and VR the first books anyone mentions are Necromancer and Snow Crash. Both are good in their own right, but the VR only plays a small part of each of those books.

This was a tough series. I started it in 2002 but it wasn't until a was driving across the united states from west coast to east coast that the story really began moving for me.

Of course, at that time the story started to take place in VR. Once I was living in Raleigh, NC I was almost 2/3rds completed with the book (and I did start it at the beginning of 2002) and was so entranced with the characters and the VR that I quickly read the second book, and finally the third book after that.

Williams is not easy and puts a lot of information and world building all up front so that you understand all of the constraints. But once everything is set up he really moves the action both in VR and in the real world of the books.

I agree with everyone else that this book should be mentioned with people think of Cyberpunk. But I think too many readers get lost in the build up and probably is the reason why it's not.

Both Neuromancer and Snow Crash and short novels in comparison to this series. And have less depth in many ways. Not to say that I don't like them or think they are not good because of it. It's just that the characters in Otherland series seems more complete.

Jason wrote: "...Williams is not easy and puts a lot of information and world building all up front so that you understand all of the constraints. But once everything is set up he really moves the action both in VR and in the real world of the books.
..."

And that's not a style some of us like. I need some reason to care about the characters fairly early on. I need to know why I should give a crap if they live or die because there are billions of people and if the author is going to pick these people out and tell me to pay attention to them my first remark is... Why? What makes them special, what's their story?

I guess this means I'm plot driven more than world or character driven, but it's not that simple - I need fleshed out characters too, but I primarily need some reason to care about them and what happens to them.

I'm also allergic to pages and pages of detail that are there mostly to 'build the world'. Verbosity != world building. To me, the first line of Neuromancer is a shining example of this: "The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." Boom, I have an image in my head. The rest of the novel gives me a clear picture of Chiba and the rest of the surroundings... I don't need details on what's in the gutter along some street or behind the fence surrounding that house.

Rick wrote: ""The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." Boom, I have an image in my head."

Interesting thought - that's pretty good for most of us today, but in 10-20 years nobody will know what that means. I don't think I can get that grey static look my LCD digital TV. Kind of sad really.

That is sad...but some writing does that - it's of a time and if you read it too far past that time it loses some of its impact. But all art does that. The Mona Lisa was revolutionary for its time with the use of depth and perspective. It doesn't and can't have the same impact on a modern viewer.

What I like about Gibson's prose is that he describes enough of the scene to give you a visceral feel for it but doesn't fill in the entire world. For example, in the Bridge trilogy he describes people living on the ruins of the Bay Bridge... but doesn't really tell us much about the rest of SF or the Bay Area. We fill that in, if we want, with our own imaginations.

Actually, I think it's beautiful that Neuromancer's first line will mean different things over the years -- and all still work -- whether it's staticky gray, flat blue or dark black - or something else in 20 years. The actual color matters less than the feeling associated with it.

As for Otherland, I made it through the first two books or so before losing steam; it felt like the answers were getting further away (and the series was not complete yet).

I did read the entire Otherland series (took them along as vacation reading on a trip to Austria, so I was pretty much committed). I'm kind of conflicted ... On the one hand, I did love all of the VR worlds he constructed, but on the other hand when I'm reading about those VR worlds, I have a hard time distancing myself from the thought that the characters aren't actually in those worlds; they're just sitting in a chair somewhere with an Oculus Rift and a Steam controller. (At least until they (view spoiler)[go into the immersion pods, and even then they're not really in the VR world; they're just more isolated from the real world (hide spoiler)].)

Joseph wrote: " they're just sitting in a chair somewhere with an Oculus Rift and a Steam controller."

Given that it was written mid-90's, it's more Virtual Boy, eh? ;)

terpkristin wrote: "Joseph wrote: " they're just sitting in a chair somewhere with an Oculus Rift and a Steam controller."

Given that it was written mid-90's, it's more Virtual Boy, eh? ;)"

That does put an entirely different cast on things ...