Should have read classics discussion

This is the discussion thread for the July and August group read-Paradise Lost.

I'm still waiting on my copy to get here from my local library. It seems to be taking forever to get it. I apologize for the stall out in this discussion, hopefully soon, it will pick back up. Has anyone else got to start this book?

I'm not reading it this time but I did read it in-depth about a year ago so I'm happy to jump into any discussion about it.

It was definitely my favourite read of the year, and possibly of all time.

If you like lectures, there's a good one on YouTube.

I've read Paradise Lost before, but I've been meaning to pick it up again.

Finally, my book has come in and it has the been split into different chapters. It gives a overview before the different books, so hopefully, I can understand the general idea. I'm going to start Book 1-The Argument.

Lisa, Milton wrote a little summary for each chapter--they are called arguments, but it's really just him saying--here's what's going to happen in this chapter. It does help a bit.

That first chapter is a good one. This is where the idea of the Byronic hero comes from--the bad character of "flawed grandeur" who falls in consequence of his own actions but is somehow noble in (though not redeemed by) his punishment. Think Heathcliff.

Well now I feel silly! Somehow I thought that it was a recent add on. Now I'm interested in this chapter although I really did not like Heathcliffe much.

After my failed attempt at reading Faust, I'm nervous about reading this one. It seems that the older classics seem to challenge my reading comprehension. I hope you all can bear with my discussion.

Lisa, it might help to read it out loud. That's what I did and I found that I gained a better understanding. There were parts in the war with the angels where I found myself going, "huh? What's going on?", so don't worry, you're not alone! ;-)

Perfect! That is how I read Shakespeare!

Lisa wrote: "Well now I feel silly! Somehow I thought that it was a recent add on. Now I'm interested in this chapter although I really did not like Heathcliffe much."

Well, if you thought Heathcliff was a little devil, now you know he really was.

It took me a while to figure out the Argument thing too. I was going, wait, whaaaat? And then it all made sense.

I think PL is a little easier than Faust. It's still verse, but Milton didn't like rhyme and he changed up the rhythm anytime he wanted to, to give the words more sense.

I was wondering during my reading, how would someone not familiar with Christianity stories and doctrine fair reading this and other classics? I'm not looking for a debate about religion nor meaning to offend anyone, it was just something I was thinking about.

That's a really good question, Lisa. I think it emphasizes the importance of familiarizing oneself with Biblical tradition if you want to read the classics. Up until relatively recently the church played a huge part in most people's lives (in the western world). Classics are full of these religious allusions, references and ideas. Not to understand the significance puts quite a bit of understanding out of one's reach.

That said, it can seem like an enormous task. When I took a university course on Medieval lit, I got very frustrated because I knew that I was missing so many subtleties because I knew nothing about Catholicism. So I made it a task to learn about it a little at a time. I'm also trying to read through the list of books laid out in the 25 Books Every Christian Should Read: A Guide to the Essential Spiritual Classics. It's a chronological list, so you can follow the development of church/religious thought without having to actually read a text book (I think that there's a list of the books on Listopia). I've really enjoyed some of the books that I've read, including ones that I'd never dreamed in a hundred years that I'd like. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers: The Alphabetical Collection was awesome ..... these men (and women) were completely different than I thought they'd be and some had such wonderfully big personalities.

In any case, that's my two cents. How are you getting along with Paradise Lost? Are you feeling lost? ;-)

If you want, I participated in a Paradise Lost read-along on my blog and I did postings for a number of sections ..... I think there were twelve sections in all ...... so I could link those for you, if you want. I know some people don't like to read summaries before they read the actual book, but if you're struggling, sometimes they can help. Just let me know!

Cleo, it is going slow, but only because I had to finish another book to get back to the library. I'm only about 15 pages in(still in Book 1) and it is not too bad. The verse is much easier to read than Faust and it seems to flow better. The general timeline of the first sin, Satan and his angels falling out of Heaven, helps to make the reading easier.
The book I was finishing was in the Brother Cadfael series and since it is based in a Medieval England monastery that also helped think of my last question. The list sounds like an interesting place to start and it seems easier than just picking up a book on Augustinian or Origen essays. I still have a hard time remembering what time Vespers and Compline fall.

Lisa wrote: "I still have a hard time remembering what time Vespers and Compline fall. ..."

Then you're further ahead than me!

I love Brother Cadfael but I've only read the first 2-3 books ......

C.S. Lewis has some university lectures on Paradise Lost. I read those after I read PL and they were fantastic .... so insightful and illuminating. The books is called A Preface to Paradise Lost, if you're interested.

Cleo wrote: "C.S. Lewis has some university lectures on Paradise Lost. I read ..."

Cool. I will try to find those.

I also haven't gotten very far, but hope to be able to push along next week when I get some other stuff off my plate.

Lisa wrote: "I was wondering during my reading, how would someone not familiar with Christianity stories and doctrine fair reading this and other classics? I'm not looking for a debate about religion nor meani..."

I think it probably helps to have some background, but Milton elaborates so much on the bare bones original that I don't think you need to know much.

There is a theological question about free will and predestination underpinning the story--the ways of God that need justifying--but otherwise Milton just goes hog wild with the Christian mythology (using the term as Tolkien would) of Creation and the Fall. If you don't know who Lucifer is, for example, you sure get a nice picture in PL, which is much more developed than the figure of Satan in the Bible. Read as just a story, it seems at least as complete as the Aenied or the Iliad, which also benefit from a bit of background.

Also, though it isn't obvious to us, PL is also Milton's epic allusion to the failed English Commonwealth. (Milton and Dante were both political animals.) So it can be read on different levels if you have enough footnotes!

Couple of observations in the first book:

"his form had yet not lost
All her original brightness"

The angels are gender fluid. Cool.


"Through optic glass the Tuscan artist views
At evening from the top of Fesole"

A reference to Galileo. Milton actually met Galileo. Cool.

I'm glad you referenced that Longhare, would not have known the context.
"One who brings a mind not to be changed by place or time. The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven." That is something to think about.
Yes, I'm slow, but I had no idea that "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven", came from this book. What a wonderful turn of phrase!

Another question, is Satan and Beelzebub two different fallen angels? I thought they were the same until one spoke and the other answered.

Lisa wrote: "Another question, is Satan and Beelzebub two different fallen angels? I thought they were the same until one spoke and the other answered."

Beelzebub is Satan's right-hand angel.

Lisa wrote: "I'm glad you referenced that Longhare, would not have known the context.
"One who brings a mind not to be changed by place or time. The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a Heaven o..."

Yeah, it's great when you come across something you recognize--lines that still feel so crisp and clear and powerful.

I finally finished Book 1 and it was much easier than I thought it would be to read.

I just started book 3. Book 2 is pretty interesting. (view spoiler)[The fallen angels call a meeting to debate what they should do. One calls for war (everybody says yay); another says, war is suicide; let's just sit tight and maybe things will get better (everybody says maybe). Beelzebub waits for all the other proposals to be made, then introduces Satan's scheme of spoiling God's newest creation. Everybody loves the idea--nobody gets hurt, it buys time, gives them some satisfaction, and makes God sad. Then Satan volunteers to go and everyone is suitably impressed, and the fallen angels go off to their various pursuits feeling that the meeting has been productive and much has been accomplished. (hide spoiler)]

Then Milton, the disappointed radical politician says:

O shame to men! Devil with devil damned
Firm concord holds, men only disagree
...live in hatred, enmity and strife
Among themselves, levy cruel wars,
Wasting the Earth, each other to destroy.

Finished Book 2 and 3 and must say that I liked your synopsis Longhare of Book 2. Although that book surprised me with the introduction of Sin and Death. The idea of Death coming from Sin and then she keeps giving birth to Hellhounds that eat her from the inside. Hopefully, I read that right.
Book 3 could make your head spin with the Duality of God and his Son. I imagined crickets chirping when God asked who would take the place of man and the Host was silent.

Finished 3. Definitely not going to finish by the end of August, but I' going to plug away anyway.

Lisa, I agree, the 3rd book is harder to get into. I cockily jumped ahead without reading the argument and was totally confused until I went back and read what was going on. I assumed Milton was trinitarian, but now I'm not sure--Jesus seems to be a creature of God. Milton's take on predestination breaks with puritanism. I was thinking how hard it would be to build an epic without free will and then realized the earlier epics of Homer and Virgil were about people who were controlled by fate. In Homer's world, people did the best they could but couldn't escape their fate (with or without the gods); in Milton's world, God sees how things will turn out (like Galileo seeing stars through his telescope) but does not determine the outcome through knowing.

I'm not going to finish by the end of August either, but will continue plugging away also.

Yay!

Longhare wrote: "Finished 3. Definitely not going to finish by the end of August, but I' going to plug away anyway.

Lisa, I agree, the 3rd book is harder to get into. I cockily jumped ahead without reading the arg..."

I guess that was why that Book left me confused. I went in with some predetermined thoughts and it didn't seem like the book went the way I thought it was going to.
I find it rather amusing the way the Milton uses Roman and Greek Gods to portray different scenes in a book about a Christian God.

Lisa wrote: "I find it rather amusing the way the Milton uses Roman and Greek Gods to portray different scenes in a book about a Christian God. ..."

The aversion to Greek gods by Christians is a very modern attitude, and I even wonder if it's exaggerated. There is not that stigma historically. If you read Dante, he adds tons of Aristotelian philosophy/logic into his works. Even C.S. Lewis has no qualms about adding Bacchus to his Narnia books.

I thought I'd add some of my thoughts from my notes from my reading. It's really interesting to look back on them.

Book I & II

Milton does not make Satan an horrific, evil monstrosity; his Satan is articulate, calculating and, in the eyes of the other fallen angels, has admirable artifice. While the Satan of Dante (The Divine Comedy) is gruesome, hideous and quite terrifying, our Satan in this poem has a more pleasing guise. And so he should have. Dante's Satan was in Hell, evil personified, there to enlighten inmates as to the horrors of their fate. On the other hand, it is important for Milton's Satan to be appealing. He travels to earth with the design to tempt men; his deviousness and evil require cloaking in order for him to succeed in his mission. But for us as readers, it pays to be diligent in recognizing the true qualities of Satan and the fallen angels. They value power, might, ill, revenge, war, strength, vice, hatred, death, and they despise weakness, goodness and virtue. In fact, they don't simply despise good; they seek to pervert it, and far from wishing to do ill to a specific person or for a specific wrong, they desire "ever to do ill." The trick is to see behind the facade. To trust anything presented or said by Satan and his angels would be unwise.

Book III & IV

While I enjoyed these books somewhat less than the previous ones, Milton's cadence and rhythm are still mesmerizing. Satan's character becomes even more intricate and fascinating. To get out of the realms of Hell and to find the Garden, Satan is guilty of fraud and treachery, interestingly the worst sins that are represented in Dante's Inferno. His internal conversations with himself remind me exactly of Gollum in The Lord of the Rings, although his duplicity and malice are even more dreadful to hear. I loved the visions of Adam and Eve and their relationship towards each other …….. harmony is the word that comes to mind, in perfect synchronicity with the Garden. The Son's gentle sacrifice for these first humans is very moving.

I'll try to keep posting in pace with your reading.

Cleo, I really like your notes, thank you for sharing them! I have never read Dante and I like how you compare and contrast the two books. Satan does have an appeal in this book, rather like the bad boy that every girl thinks they can change. He is suave and smooth, but you get glimpses of his mind and realize that there is not much good left. He seems to battle with himself at times trying to figure out if it was a good thing to have challenged God, but his pride and ego are just to large to go back. Nice picture of Gollum, now I will have him in my mind when I read!

Lisa, you would like Dante. I spent a lot of last year and early this year reading and re-reading the Comedy, which sparked my interest in going back to Milton. The contrasts are interesting. They are both steeped in politics; you don't need to know it, but it does shed light on much of what they say. Dante was Catholic, Milton Protestant, both had innovative takes on their religion. It is amazing that either of them got away with writing their major works and surviving (literally) their eras. In Inferno, the damned are sort of stuck in a loop of their primary sin--they are unable to move beyond the sin and while they don't enjoy their punishment, they nevertheless cling to the sin as central to their being, much as Milton's Satan clings to his rebellion. In Inferno, Satan is a mindless creature of anger and appetite. In Paradise Lost, Satan and the other fallen angels awake in hell, looking a bit worn but otherwise still the glorious beings they had been. But as time goes on Satan transforms (like Dorian Gray without the picture). When Gabriel confronts him in Eden, he does not recognize him, which is a blow to Satan, who had been the most beautiful of God's creations.

I thought IV picks up quite a bit. I love how Eve sees herself in the water, is taken to see Adam, and decides she likes the one in the water better. The first little hint that Eve has a mind of her own, followed by her wish "to know" why God puts on a light show every night when nobody is awake to see it. Satan puzzles over God's apparent prohibition on Knowledge--to know is a sin? He doesn't understand that knowledge (of evil) is the consequence, not the sin. Satan as a stalking tiger, Satan as toad. Satan turning from the lovemaking couple in envy and grief. Gabriel complaining that material walls are no good for keeping out spirits. Lots of good stuff.

Christianity arose in the heart of the Roman empire and Asia Minor, and grew up cheek by jowl with the mythology and philosophies of ancient Greece and Rome. The first biblical scholars were trained in philosophy--sort of the last class of Greek philosophers as the ancient world petered out. So even though early Christians rejected the pantheon, they were still fairly steeped in the culture. Homer was never very far away, and as the gods lost their divinity and became mere fiction, they became much easier to embrace. When Milton names the fallen angels early in the book, that is called a Homeric catalog, and some of the angels are identified as (in the future) passing themselves off as gods such as Jove. So as a Christian, Milton sees the old gods as defrauding demons. But, he also sees the mythologies that resulted--the literature--as being the product of human thought and energy, not demonic. He can call on the old gods, not as real deities, but for what they represent. Dante and Milton both found classical mythology deeply relevant and recyclable.

Cleo, I love your notes. Keep posting. Gollum, yes-s-s-s!

I just want to say that I don't know how I would read this book without both of your posts. I feel like I'm getting a college course on this for free. Thank you for taking the time to putter through this one with me.

Milton is a brilliant genius. He does no injustice to the biblical text, but he does color it nicely. He draws in the reader who may not otherwise be drawn in to the sacred text and he inspired me to nurture the longing in my soul for God. I found Paradise Lost to be rich with imagery and imagination. I am challenged by his many references to Greek mythology, science, and his far-reaching view of the world. A couple of highlights for me: 1) scenes of the angels worshipping God in Book III, 2) the description of the Son volunteering to rescue the future, yet to be created race through his own sacrifice [Book VII], 3) Milton's description of the Son descending to vanquish Satan from Heaven, and 4) descriptions of innocence. I appreciated Milton's portrayal of Satan, but I don't see Satan as a tragic hero, as that would aggrandize him more than Milton intended IMHO. I recommend Paradise Lost to any serious reader of literature.

I'm through VI. V and VI have Raphael arriving at A&E's shady rest just in time for dinner and shooting the breeze with Adam. He's been sent to warn A&E that bad spirit #1 is on the loose and not to listen to any tempting suggestions. I like how instead of whizzing down like lightning and reading off some fearsome pronouncement, he just drops in, compliments the chef, and chats away in response to Adam's questions. His stories are full of cautionary details (y'all might discover dynamite and start blowing each other up if you get all disobedient...). Love the part where the bad angels build cannons and start firing on Michael's troops, so the good angels go tear up some mountains and dump them on the bad angels, who fly off and get some mountains of their own so both sides are slinging mountains at each other. And God says to the Son, Well, this could go on forever.

One thing I notice, and I think it partly explains why Hell feels more approachable than Heaven, where God comes in the language gets pretty highfalutin--it really reaches for glory and purity of spirit and so on. But when the bad angels speak to one another, they might almost be in a pub. Raphael also speaks pretty informally to Adam. I've seen Milton's God referred to as a humorless stick in the mud, but I'm not seeing that, though I do have to work a lot harder at understanding the text when he's around.

Mark wrote: "Milton is a brilliant genius. He does no injustice to the biblical text, but he does color it nicely. He draws in the reader who may not otherwise be drawn in to the sacred text and he inspired me ..."

Thanks for the comments, Mark. My experience reading it for the first time was similar to yours. I don't see Satan as a tragic hero either and I think C.S. Lewis describes him perfectly, but I'll leave that description for when everyone has finished.

Longhare wrote: "Love the part where the bad angels build cannons and start firing on Michael's troops, so the good angels go tear up some mountains and dump them on the bad angels, who fly off and get some mountains of their own so both sides are slinging mountains at each other. And God says to the Son, Well, this could go on forever...."

This was one part of the book were it got confusing for me and I had to read it over a few times.

Longhare wrote: "explains why Hell feels more approachable than Heaven, where God comes in the language gets pretty highfalutin--it really reaches for glory and purity of spirit and so on. But when the bad angels speak to one another, they might almost be in a pub. ..."

Yes, exactly. But when you think about it, as humans our behaviour is much closer to Satan and so Milton is more able to understand it and communicate it. But God and the Son (and Heaven) are perfection. How does one even fully understand perfection and divinity? It's impossible, and therefore close to impossible to communicate it effectively. Milton does his best but I think the very fact that his verse falls way short, helps to illustrate just how far our characters are from God's perfection.

Book V & VI

When Eve begins to prepare choice delicacies for their visitor, the reader gets more evidence of the hierarchical structure of the poem:

"Nearer his (Raphael's) presence, Adam, though not awed,
Yet with submiss approach and reverence meek,
As to a superior nature, bowing low .."

Potent images of the delightful beauty of the garden abound. Raphael takes a moment to caution Adam with regard to his obedience. Again free will is emphasized:

"…….. That thou art happy, owe to God;
That thou continuest such, owe to thyself."

God has given man happiness, but it is in man's power to keep it or lose it based upon his choices.

Milton gives us a beautiful image of Raphael, with his six wings almost singing a breeze, wafting a heavenly fragrance that must have been like pure spring.

Satan, as a character, is extremely interesting, yet not particularly complex. Time after time he ignores the evidence in front of him and is certain of victory, or that his own wishes are impossible to deny. Milton refers often to his "pride" but it is something much more nefarious and eternally damaged. Truth is simply inconceivable to him, he cannot even get close to it. It is fascinating to watch in a rather unsettling way.

Satan is not a good guy type hero, or one you should feel sorry for. Tragic heroes are not quite the same thing as Byronic heroes. Here's a great link:

http://www.wwnorton.com/college/engli...

I think Satan is at his most recognizable--his most human-like--when he is nearest the point of being overwhelmed by regret. He knows he's been foolish and, in his own words, abhors what he is planning to do--he is still angel enough to be aware of the horror; he wants to go home, God was never unreasonable or harsh and life in heaven was pretty sweet. But he cannot serve, he cannot go back, he cannot look the fool, the other guys will laugh at him for being a wuss or hate him for throwing them under the bus--he cannot imagine a scenario in which he and the other bad angels are readmitted to heaven, not because he doesn't think God would ever forgive them but because it would require humility, which he will have nothing to do with. It is important to keep in mind that Satan is capable of making choices--he just makes the wrong ones. It is interesting that God makes a distinction between Satan's disobedience and A&E's--that seduction is a mitigating factor, which was absent in Satan's case. His Fall was all his own doing. Also, interesting that of all Satan's peeps, only Abdiel remains loyal to God, the others all lining up behind Satan with very little encouragement. Evidently, he got the Slytherin angels.

Still plugging away, just finished 7 so the discussion was really helpful for me. Can I have some pointers and what to look out for in Books 8-10?

I'm still plugging away too. Cleo?

I'm still here! I meant to post that I'm really enjoying your comments, Longhare! You're giving us excellent insights.

What to look for? Well, it appears that Milton is mixing Ptolemaic and Copernican theories in Book VII & VII so it's not easy reading .... I had a hard time. Otherwise it's interesting to study the interaction between Adam and Eve and the consequences. There is tons of imagery in these books which is kind of fun to sink into.

Cleo, that whole paragraph just scared the crap out of me. Made my Google button light up also! I haven't read some of those words in years.

I'm STILL reading this, believe it or not. I had to get another copy at the library, since my other one was due. This one has more of an old English spelling to the words, which is rather fun. I finished Chpt. 8 last night and must say that I found Chpt 7 rather boring. I thought that Chpt 8 would be also, but I found Adam's narrative about how he came into being interesting. It is a perspective that I have never considered. I never stopped to think about just waking up one day on some grass and what that would be like. Now for Chpt 9, which is the central one about the fall, rather interested in seeing how Milton deals with this.

I just finished Ch 8 too, a couple days ago. I've just been swamped lately, but I'm still plugging away. Please keep going! I will make a super effort at getting through Ch 9 this week.

I have to hang my head in shame, but I'm still reading this book. I'm currently reading two different copies, one on my Kindle and a physical book. I'm not sure why I have had such a hard time picking this back up. It now feels like a quest that I have to finish!

Keep plugging along, Lisa. I didn't have much to say for VII & VIII but I'll post some of my thoughts:

Book VII & VIII

Well, the reading is certainly getting harder and I am having to re-read in parts to get the gist of what is happening, especially when Raphael begins to talk about the universe, mixing Ptolemaic and Copernican theories. Whew!

I'm not sure yet how I feel about Milton's portrayal of Adam and Eve. Their literary creation must have been a difficult task to accomplish. On one hand it's necessary to make them appear innocent and pure before the Fall, yet they also need to be capable of being tempted, so in reality he needs to give them some sort of flaw (is that the word I'm searching for?). Perfect and yet not perfect. I'm not sure if it's possible to do this task well.

Honestly, I don't have much to add with regard to these books. Once again, very enjoyable, yet not as easy to assimilate as at the beginning of the poem, on more levels than just understanding. I'm interested to see how Milton will handle the temptation of Eve and the Fall, because we all know who is still watching the Garden!

I FINALLY finished this book. Oh my gosh, I feel like I conquered a mountain! It was a book filled with amazing imagery (that was only the parts that I totally understood). I'm so glad that I stuck with it and finished it. Cleo and Longhare, do you have any notes on the final chapters? I can't tell you how much I appreciate your discussion points while going through this book, I wouldn't have been able to enjoy this without you both!