THE Group for Authors! discussion

You don't usually think of being broke as saving your tuccus; this is an exception.

I am a Tate Author and have nothing but praise for them. It was my first book and I really needed help with editing, cover and promotions. I have had my book out since December and have gotten my investment back and then some. I till get immediate response when I contact them and will publish my second book with them too.

The thing I learned is that it is up to me to promote myself anyway I can.

www.thefivesisters.net
Anita, author of Fluffy, Funny and Fabulous: A Tale of Five Sisters

Anita wrote: "I am a Tate Author and have nothing but praise for them. It was my first book and I really needed help with editing, cover and promotions. I have had my book out since December and have gotten my ..."

I'm happy that your experience has been a good one for you Anita. Do I understand that your agreement with them didn't include having them do marketing?

Norm Hamilton
Author of The Digital Eye and the soon to be released From Thine Own Well
Indie Writer Book Reviews
Services for Writers
Website
email: Norm Hamilton

If it was possible to sign on with them without any marketing fees, I would've done it.

Anyone else?

Here we go again! Guys and gals listen up! Always, always, before you give any good sounding deal a PLUG NICKEL, post in Google these words with any SO-CALLED publisher: ??? PUBLISHING SCAMS In this case TATE PUBLISHING SCAMS see this below, your questions answered. Do the search yourself also; don't just trust my words!

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/misc/t...

Cheers, Don

Norm wrote: "Anita wrote: "I am a Tate Author and have nothing but praise for them. It was my first book and I really needed help with editing, cover and promotions. I have had my book out since December and h..."

The contract was for editing, book cover, publishing, marketing through their website, getting Amazon set up, Book Trailer, etc. They did get me several signings and interviews through their partner Key Marketing. I have worked hard but they have been supportive.

After doing all of that for you, they best take care of you. Money should follow money. You are one of the lucky ones, few and far between. Recouping all of that cash is the big problem and question here! They are still on the "Don't work with" list at Preditors and Editors.
Cheers, Don

Folks at the end of every day it is your money and you can apply it anywhere you want. I choose to follow good advice and avoid trouble spots. For the most part Tate is trouble, and if you take the time to listen to their employees there is a lot of hate going around about the organization and how they are treated. Cheers, Don
P.S. I share this for your own good; no one paid me to show and tell here.

Good luck with the lawyer. Tate has a whole office full...

My second book with Tate will be in Production in February. Yes I paid the 4000 investment the first time and it was worth every dime. I did not have to pay that investment this time it was considerably less $1500. It is an investment. Don't think an unknown writer is not going to have to invest. If a publisher is going to spend the money it takes to edit, print, market your book u r going to have to be a known writer u can get them their investment back. My experience has be great with Tate.

Fay have you earned back the $4,000 and made a profit on your first book?

Folks who need a great deal of help with their editing, cover work, and who believe they will get tons of exposure through these people (who we are warned about on Preditors and Editors) feel they have no other viable or visible option. It's their money to spend, if they have it to burn. I don't. It's like playing the horses or gambling, it's all high risk and little to no return.

Sometimes those of us who have been around so long, and back and forth on this issue, are tired of repeating ourselves, since no one is really listening. Later they cry the blues, but good luck getting any of us to listen then.

But keep in mind that just because you have money doesn't mean you will make money. We all know who makes the money, don't we, if we are being honest. I do not recommend Tate or others connected with them to anyone. Run away. Did you hear me this time? Don

Exactly Don! And as P T Barnum said, "there's one born every minute" ;)

From what I have seen Tate makes their money by scamming authors and has no interest is selling books. They price their e-books so high they appear to have minimal sales on Amazon, if any at all.

When I hear people say Tate is worth every penny to me that means the author has made a significant profit over and above the initial investment. I have yet to see an author say they made the NYT Bestseller list thanks to the marketing effort of Tate.

A.W. wrote: "Fay have you earned back the $4,000 and made a profit on your first book?"

Anita wrote: "I am a Tate Author and have nothing but praise for them. It was my first book and I really needed help with editing, cover and promotions. I have had my book out since December and have gotten my ..."

yes

everybody has a different experience. for some authors it has not been about the money and for some people 4000 is not alot of money. yes it was for me. i encourage every author to do what works for them. for me this worked for others it didn't you truly have to know your target audience when writing and selling a book. I can tell you all the staff I have worked with at Tate have been respectful and helpful I know others have had other experiences but that was mine. I am completely satisfied.

$4,000 is a heck of a lot of money to most people. It is a substantial amount to pay to a company who then also take part of your royalties. You can successfully self publish for under $1,000 AND keep 100% of your royalties.

This is why I ask have you earned out the $4,000 initial investment and turned a profit? Is you book receiving positive reviews?

I find it very telling when people claim to be satisfied with Tate but clam up when asked about the effectiveness of their expensive marketing.

I have not clammed up was not sitting in front of my computer. Is it not alright for me to be satisfied. Someone asked what my experience was and I told them there are plenty of people who were not satisfied. My book has been very well received. I am very happy with the outcome. I considered self publishing but I chose not to though I find nothing wrong with going that route. I am thankful there are so many avenues for authors to choose. I am not trying to make anybody LOVE Tate publishing. Some one inquired what a person who had been published with them experience was and I gave it. I don't claim to be satisfied I am satisfied

Like Fay I have been happy with Tate. Ultimately everybody makes there own choices and you need to be willing to put alot of hard work into selling yourself whether you selft publish or go with Tate or somebody else. Its hard work but for me it has been a great adventure. I have met so many people and have learned so much in the last year.
As far as the $4000 it was a hardship for me but I really did not know how to do all the editing, etc myself and it was worth every penny. And yes I have made my money back and been profitable.

One thing I found very hard was setting up my business so I could pay taxes, etc and claim as income. That was something I never realized I would need to do because nobody talks about that part. It is a business and being a good writer is not enough.

All conversation aside, the Publishing industry is the biggest mystery of all. I don't care about how many books Amazon and others say they are selling. I want to see what they are PAYING OUT to authors. Where are the D@*#N numbers? Let's hear from folks who haven't earned a plug nickel on their books, but the sales are tremendous, according to Amazon. LOL. I don't doubt that lots of our books are selling! We made these books, that we've been working on a long time, and yet the book sellers aren't forking over the dough to those most deserving of their royalties.

If we would all stop sending in our books, then those "others" who are selling them would stop getting all of our money! A boycott could work! Amazon just needs more competition!!!

Maybe then they will start paying out. I only hear the words Selling, Selling, Selling. But is anyone Paying out?

Don, I'm not sure I understand your post. Are you saying authors are being told they are selling large quantities on Amazon but not receiving any payment?

Personally I receive monthly statements from my publisher which details all sales and their source (Amazon, Kobo, B&N etc) and I receive a quarterly payment. Or is the issue that some publishers do not provide sales information to authors? Publishing is a business, I cannot get my head around authors being unaware of how, where, or if their books are selling. I track my sales so I know what marketing/advertising works.

Okay Fay and Anita, put your numbers where your mouths are: tell us what your book titles are and let us look at how they rank on Amazon versus others who self-published and didn't pay Tate's bribe.

(I, of course, don't count in the comparison, given that I have no budget for marketing, etc. and have therefore sold squat.)

Certain authors know they are selling books on Amazon, but who watches the cookie jar for payouts. It's easier to take in money than to ever pay it out. Not speculation here, documented proof that folks have purchased books, but the book authors have no royalty numbers. Amazon is being watched like a hawk, investigators are looking into it.

That's terrific, too. Sounds like you can't win for losing.

We just have to wait for the dust to settle and then maybe a payout later. I think they are hoping to get a look at the books and their accounting practices. Hey, the Red Cross got caught with their bloody fingers in the pie earlier, and they are all about the blood to the heart.
Embezzling today seems more like a challenge for greedy people today than ever before, since there's a lot more green out there.

Look, Amazon isn't a church or community outreach organization, they want our money. They hold a strangle-hold on the lion's share of the book business. Why no one has gone after them for holding a monopoly is anyone's guess. Cheers, Don

Here you go. Book 1, current rank overall #3,215 and #2 in Steampunk:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BFTMRBA

Book 2 (same series), current rank overall #4,364 and #3 in steampunk:
http://www.amazon.com/Hatshepsuts-Col...

Between the two books I have probably paid a total of about $500 in advertising and marketing. So I'd love to know how much better my books would sell if I had $4,000 to put into marketing :)

Don,

Amazon has been gone after time and time again in the courts and the courts so far have agreed with Amazon on the majority of the issues. Also, Amazon is not a monopoly in publishing or retailing. No one is forcing anyone to sell through Amazon.

Now, I suggest that if you want to start a thread about Amazon instead of hijacking a thread about Tate Publishing, then do so. But for now, the subject of this thread is, TATE PUBLISHING...

Oops, I forgot that Goodreads is the property of Amazon how, how STUPID of me to forget! Cheers, Don

My apology for getting off track here, I just couldn't find any bigger fish to fry. "Amazon is not a monopoly" - your words not mine. Just because something looks like a duck, walks like one, it's possible it's a goose. IMO they even smell like a Monopoly, but that's my opinion only.

Don't worry I'm not in law enforcement, even though one of my parents and my aunt were.

Personally, I'd like to know when they've earned back their investment.

I already earned back mine.

Judy, I'm not independently wealthy as are some in the writing business. I noticed you have a plethora of books at Amazon. I can't even fathom what you must have sunk into ALL of these books to get them published. I want to believe you recouped all of your money over the last couple years, but it is a rather large fish to shallow.

Nevertheless, kudos to you, and you should write a book on how you did it!!! I'm sure we all would sit and listen to you with rapt attention to your lecture. Cheers, Don

A.W.: I didn't mean that you needed to prove yourself, but I'm actually glad you did. I read the descriptions for both of your books and was impressed and curious. I've sent off the samples Amazon provides to my tablet, so I'll see if you're as good as you sound. :D

Dayanara wrote: "A.W.: I didn't mean that you needed to prove yourself ..."

I'm not with Tate, I can't afford them! I'm with a small press who doesn't charge anything. Like others I am as curious to know what $4,000 worth of marketing gets you. I am quite happy to put myself out there as an example of NOT spending thousands of dollars, so I may not be as good as I sound! lol

I too have received a contract from Tate and several phone calls, even one from Dr. Tate himself on to my book. They were never pushy and answered a lot of questions. They say they read my book and after a lot of quizzing I feel they are honest.

I am worried that it is just too good to be true but after a lot of digging I find good and bad with Tate. Did you know that there are two Tate Publishing companies? One from a home business and one from Mustang Oklahoma. Which ones are you all talking about?

I am new to the business but have a self published book, The Republic by Jeffrey H. Essary, out there with several hundred sales in a short 6 month time period. Why does some have great experiences and others have terrible ones. It is so hard to make up my mind with all the different posts. Is it that your books just were not worthy of many sales or was it a scam from Tate?

This thread is for the Mustang company, Jeff.

I personally would love to invest $4k, but if I had that much money, I wouldn't be sharing housing with others!

Conversely, I've been playing with a sequel to Early One Morning, so maybe it's better that I didn't go with Tate, as I may eventually release that and "Exilium" as a sort of "novella omnibus".

Jill wrote: "I did just speak with someone at Tate. These are some of the questions I had and didn't feel too easy about their answers.

1. I've spent a lot of time & effort on my book covers & image. These wou..."

I too got calls from Tate. Nothing like yours. I asked questions and said I was worried that they were a scam. They said nothing to me like a deadline or anything. Said it was up to me as to if I and when I sign with them. They must of read my book cause they answered a quiz I gave to them on it. Ture they are asking for the $4k but no pressure to sign here. I am still thinking about it.

I'd be interested to know if your book had sex and/or extreme violence in it and they still accepted it.

That's one thing I thought they'd shy away from once they read beyond the first three chapters: not just the rampant Pagan factor, but rape.

Anita wrote: "My book was published by Tate and I could not be happier. They were there every step of the way, always answered my phone calls and questions and I loved the editing and extra details they put int..."

Glad to hear your great news. I too have had great luck with them thus far and hope it keeps it up. Have you sold alot with them?

I am a (currently) satisfied Tate author. I went into the deal with eyes open, knowing all the bad press. The common thread I have found in most of the gripes online are from authors who went in with unrealistic expectations. An author with no name, no platform, and no drive to do everything possible to promote a book will find Tate an unsuccessful road to travel for them. I do expect it will take a lot of effort on my part, especially as an author who lives internationally most of the time. That is why I am seeking to make the most of this 6 month window while we are in the States (which fortunately coincides with the hard launch of my books, currently in soft launch and available from Tate, hard launch everywhere Feb. 4th, when they will be on Amazon, B&N, iBooks, etc) to do what I can to promote them and see where it goes.

I do retain full rights, and if by the end of my 6 months in the States I do not feel the books are getting the traction they should, I absolutely will pull them and republish self-published. As of now, I have a third book in the trilogy which Tate wants but which I am reserving until I see how this 6 months goes. If things go really well and I get traction, I might take book 3 through them, but right now I am leaning toward self-pub for the third book and future works.

What went into my decision to go with Tate despite the steep marketing retainer?

1) I knew absolutely NOTHING about the process and wanted a situation where someone would take me through it step by step. If nothing else I was ready to write off what I paid for the retainer as "tuition" for taking a course in Book Publishing and Production 101. My wife and I prayed about it, and knew there was a possibility that we would not see that money again. After prayer and consideration, we decided to do it, and forget about it, not expecting the money to ever come back. If it did, then it would be a blessing from God, but otherwise, it would be reasonable tuition costs for all I have learned.

2) The distribution network for Tate would allow me to get the books into bookstores and venues that otherwise would not be open to me if I self-published.

3) Many book awards in my genre will not consider self-published books. While awards don't mean much of squat in many genres, in Speculative Fiction (Fantasy/Sci-Fi), the awards carry credibility and their own following. It is a hope against hope that I might actually snag a prestigious award, especially considering the faith-grounded nature of my books, but still even being able to submit for them is an option Tate opened for me that self-publishing would not have.

4) Tate, and their affiliated publicist company, have ties into venues for promotion and media outlets to publicize events, all of which would have cost me money to do myself.

5) Tate agreed, because of some negotiating on my part, to do two books for a single marketing retainer since both were in a series and a single website would suffice for both books. So what they are producing for my retainer is 2 15-second book trailers, each of which will be aired on Dish Network with a guarantee of 1,000,000 impressions per trailer, they will create a website for me for the books, they will work with me on creating and promoting a facebook page for the books as well. All of these things are things I could do myself at the cost of time and money (well the TV promotions might be out of my grasp), but as a full-time M I don't have the time or bandwidth to do all this myself. My work is sharing the gospel overseas. Being an author is more of a hobby and a dream than a career, so in that aspect I felt I was getting a lot of bang for my buck in exposure and time savings.

6) I have a built-in platform. As an M overseas, I have a network of churches who know us, have been praying for our work here in Asia, and who I regularly communicate with. While I am back in the States, I expect I will have many opportunities to speak at various churches, Sunday school classes, and organizations about our work here. With careful discussion with the Pastors/Leaders, at worst they would be willing to let me announce an outside event (book signing, etc) in the area around the day I speak. At my home church, and possible a couple of others, I expect they will give me much more latitude in promoting the books. Because of this built in platform, I was not starting with zero recognition, as many new authors must, but had a built-in niche market for my books. We will see if that makes much/any difference in the end, but it was still another factor that weighed into my decision to go with Tate.

So when all is said and done, I am not a starstruck kid who got hornswaggled by an evil predator company. I am in my mid-40's and have worked as a VP, have negotiated multi-million dollar contracts for companies, have run my own real-estate investment company (two actually, one in VA and one in TX) and have made my living negotiation short-sale contracts with banks and lenders. I know how to read a contract, negotiate, and analyze a deal before stepping into it. I went into my relationship with Tate with eyes open and clear expectations and as I have said, thus far, every one has been met (with the exception of my failure to ask from the beginning about the pricepoint for the books). I will take this road as long as it continues to meet my expectations, but my contract allows me to pull out and retain all my rights should I decide at some point that things are going seriously counter to expectations.

I don't think for a moment Tate would be the right choice for everyone, but for me it was a good choice. I would urge EVERY author, before making ANY choices, to put the prayer, thought, and due diligence into their decision of where to go with their books that I have. Doubtless most will come to a different conclusion than I have, because everyone's circumstances are different.

A.W.,
You said "NYT Bestseller list thanks to the marketing effort of Tate."
Many authors are not aware that other authors offer their books for free on Amazon. Also, readers (Especially e-readers) grab up these freebies and Amazon records these as sales. Think about it. If I offer a book for $6 or $8, the buying public are wanting what's free, not what they have to pay even a nickel for. So Joe SMO, for example, gives his book away, and suddenly he is a best seller, whether his work is good or not. Not all best sellers are what they are cracked up to be. I know for a fact that I could give away more than I could ever sell, a no brainer!

Jumping in here, but Amazon ranks the free and the paid separately, so they are not competing against each other.

I'm glad that their are some satisfied Tate authors out there, who felt that the services they received were worth the money they paid, but that's a lot of money, and legitimate publishers will provide most of those services without the author having to be out of pocket. Most of them can be purchased piecemeal by an SPA for a much lower final price.

I'm a hybrid, with a novel coming soon from a small press and a bunch of self-published titles (very cheaply) on Amazon, mostly of short stories or titles I thought too religious to interest a publisher in my genre with. I haven't had huge success, but they've reviewed pretty well and I'm hoping the traditionally published book will do pretty well.

Unfortunately, a lot of the negatives of self-publishing (difficult to get into bookstores or considered for prestigious awards) is also true of work published through 'vanity' presses, and for much the same reason. Even if the end product is well produced and professional looking, there's no filter. Your book never made it through somebody's slush pile. No-one ever looked at it and said you have a great idea here, but..." and suggested ways to improve it. Most bookstores don't want any (some independents DO make exceptions for local writers) and frankly, bookstores are less and less important as book-selling venues.

I can see where someone might find the "one-stop shopping" approach appealing, but really, a press like this is still self-publishing.

If I'm going to pay ANY money out in any part of any process, it's going to be for postage, ink, paper and envelopes (and maybe a copy of Writer's Market, since my library never carries the current one) to GET AN AGENT.

I self-publish because it's FREE. Out of four books, I've spent less than $50--the first time, searching for a subject for a photo for Barefoot on the Couch (which I got lost on the way to and never found [grr]) and the second, paying $25 for a two photo license on ShutterStock (one of which became the cover for Early One Morning.) I am NOT going to pay some "maybe company" $4k to (likely) sit on their asses.

I'm Dayanara,
I'm feeling guilty now. Here I sit on my tush typing away, instead of standing in front of a lectern, sharing stories and poems and maybe moving a few of my books. It's pretty bad when an author can't even afford a few of his own books, but then I have 20+ and counting out there. You'd go broke too - buying your own, if you had that many. LOL cheers, Don

I have a dirty habit of buying my books and sending them off to "favorites". I didn't include that on my list, because it's not a necessary part of publishing. ;)

Dayanara,
I honestly don't have my books in my own hands long enough before someone comes along asking for them. I could do the math to see what my own sales were. I had ordered 4 copies of 2 different books by a bookstore's request. They arrived and I was to do a signing as well.

My car did this fire in the engine thing and out the door went $1,000. It wiped me out one week and forced me to sell those books I had to just put a bit of food on the table. I'm working on back up funds for the next emergency. :-} Don

David wrote: "I am a (currently) satisfied Tate author. I went into the deal with eyes open, knowing all the bad press. The common thread I have found in most of the gripes online are from authors who went in wi..."

I could not have expressed this better, A Tate Author

Dayanara wrote: "Okay Fay and Anita, put your numbers where your mouths are: tell us what your book titles are and let us look at how they rank on Amazon versus others who self-published and didn't pay Tate's bribe..."

Dayanara Amazon is certainly not where I have sold most of my books. I sell directly from the Tate website, at speaking engagements, local book stores,I don't even pay attention to Amazon I am busy writing my third book and waiting on the production of my second book. If you want to self publish that is ur right I considered it long and hard and decided not to. There is no need to thrash people who don't choose to and made an investment in their book. I truly hope you continue writing and selling ur books you'll be more successful if stop trying to track what other people are doing and track ur own. I'M DONE!

I don't need to track my own sales. If you didn't have your head stuck in the ground, you notice that I've said--repeatedly--I HAVE NO SALES!

For you to say, "My work is selling well on the Tate site" means squat. Your $4,000 could be paying for sock puppets, for all I know. Unless one of the big movies and shakers is saying that you sell well (Amazon, Barnes and Noble, New York Times...pick one), your braggadocio means absolutely NOTHING to me, and very likely little to anyone else.

LOL, yikes guys! I've never published with Tate, and would NEVER pay that kind of money for vanity publishing. My books are all published by my own publishing company. I pay for art and editing, some marketing, and that's it.

My point was that Fay had great things to say but her sales rank on Amazon was extremely low, so I wanted to hear some numbers.

By the way, Fay: if you write "ur so lame" like a twelve year old, I CRINGE to see what your books look like! The only time "ur" should be used in a sentence is if you're referring to the ancient Sumerian city-state or the Stephen King novellete of the same name!

("I'm on my phone/tablet" is NOT an acceptable excuse in this situation. Only ONE of my reponses on this thread in the last twenty-four hours has been from a computer!)

Just to be clear - I was asking if anyone made the NYT list thanks to Tate's expensive marketing package (tongue firmly in cheek).

Personally I am published with a small press (Curiosity Quills) who does not charge anything. Like other legitimate publishers they bear all production costs. The point of this discussion is to inform other writers about the publishing options. You should never pay to publish and remember Tate also takes a chunk from royalties. You can self publish for under $1,000 and keep 100% of earnings.

Like others I have been nosy at Tate titles and they do not rank very well at Amazon nor do they have many rankings/ratings on GR. Since the company is charging $4,000 for marketing of course it makes us want to know what bang you get for those bucks!

It staggers me that some writers don't track their sales, but then I like to know if I pay for an advertisement does it have an effect on sales. I'm curious what sort of traffic the Tate website gets if authors say that is their primary market, but again if you don't track sales there is no way to know.

Opinions, you gotta love em....