The Thomas Mann Group discussion

This is for the discussion until Section VI, chapter 4.

Is the decline of the family partly due to lack of new marriages, I wonder? Neither Thomas or Christian seem to have any plans to marry. Their father's brother, Uncle Gotthold's three daughters don't marry. Tony's marriage, as we know, ended abruptly. Could this pattern be related to a point Mann wanted to make?

The Buddenbrooks certainly seem isolated from everyone else. It seems like their social intercourse is related mostly to business matters or religion. Did Tony's divorce have any negative impact on their social standing?

Well, I kept reading and found the answers to my questions: They're isolated because they're still in mourning and Tony is being ostracized because of her divorce. (view spoiler)[In answer to your question Jonathan, wait until you meet Tom's wife! (hide spoiler)]

I have to say that scene with Grunlich, Kesselmeyer and Johann when Johann refused to help him was very satisfying to read. After Kesselmeyer revealed that the whole marriage had been a set-up for the money and credit, Johann must have been devastated. It must have provided some satisfaction to be able to take Tony and Erika with him, even though all blame for the marriage lay on his shoulders.

Diane wrote: " It must have provided some satisfaction to be able to take Tony and Erika with him, even though all blame for the marriage lay on his shoulders."

All blame?

Jonathan wrote: "Diane wrote: " It must have provided some satisfaction to be able to take Tony and Erika with him, even though all blame for the marriage lay on his shoulders."

All blame?"

I am with you, Jonathan, I do not see Tony as a victim nor her father as the culprit.

My impression is that the situation is more complicated. Both context/society and the individuals are more complex. Tony feels proud of her family and she also likes to live well. The father wanted the best for her daughter. He himself was a victim of a deception.

Marrying outside of one's social circles could also bring serious difficulties and unhappiness.

Jonathan wrote: "Is the decline of the family partly due to lack of new marriages, I wonder? Neither Thomas or Christian seem to have any plans to marry. Their father's brother, Uncle Gotthold's three daughters don..."

It's not that the Buddenbrooks don't marry,it's (view spoiler)[ that they don't marry well! (hide spoiler)] Uncle Gotthold's three daughters are unable to marry cause of lack of suitable dowry,really a comment on society of those times where love marriages were perhaps unheard of or not possible without losing one's social rank. In that sense,the three spinsters are not really that different from Klothilde's position. Sad really.

Diane wrote: "I have to say that scene with Grunlich, Kesselmeyer and Johann when Johann refused to help him was very satisfying to read. After Kesselmeyer revealed that the whole marriage had been a set-up f..."

The Consul has skillfully manipulated his daughter- the way the conversation plays out between the father & daughter is a lesson in diplomacy & getting what one wants! Poor Tony she was only playing at house like little children do. There's that excellent line abt Tony acting all dignified as a married woman but beneath it all,only a child.

Herr Kesselmeyer twists the knife deeper & deeper- the mortification of both father-in-law & disgraced son-in-law was worth-watching!
Mann has created such a lively scene here,one of my favs in the book.P.233

And later,we read:

"But Tony had the lovely knack of being able to adopt readily to any situation in life simply by tackling its new possibilities. She was soon enjoying her role of "innocent wonan afflicted by tragedy"; her wardrobe was dark now...to compensate for her lack of social pleasures,she found inexhaustible joy and great dignity in the gravity and importance of her new situation and provided the household with her views on marriage,Herr Grünlich,and life and destiny in general."P.237
Her life is a performance,just like Christian's!

Mala wrote: "Diane wrote: "I have to say that scene with Grunlich, Kesselmeyer and Johann when Johann refused to help him was very satisfying to read. After Kesselmeyer revealed that the whole marriage had b..."

Yes, this is an excellent quote on Tony. She is somewhat of an accomplice of her own destiny.

I do not have yet an opinion of Christian.

The narrator keeps himself detached but very sharp in his observations.

Mala wrote: "Her life is a performance,just like Christian's! "

Interesting way of putting it. She also enjoys Christian's "performances".

I had marked that same quote about Tony. I think it describes her way of thinking to a tee.

Mala wrote: "Uncle Gotthold's three daughters are unable to marry cause of lack of suitable dowry,really a comment on society of those times where love marriages were perhaps unheard of or not possible without losing one's social rank. "

Good point. I didn't really catch this. I'm surprised the three daughters aren't more bitter about or at their father, rather than venting so much at Tony. I suppose that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms about interactions between women in patriarchal societies (about which I don't really know much...

I'm interested in the whole concept of the dowry. Many women must have lacked one. Did they all remain unmarried or did they marry into a lower rung of society? All the Buddenbrooks-even the poor cousins- seem fixated on maintaining the family's reputation. I just read the chapter about the visit from Tony's beau from Munich. It is hilarious but also disconcerting.

Gary wrote: "I'm interested in the whole concept of the dowry. .."

Well, the dowry convention in a way supports the idea that the family sincereley wishes the best for Tony. If they were to accept a relationship/marriage with someone like Morten, no dowry would be necessary (or at least it would be for a much smaller amount). Yet, if marrying at the same level as herself, that is, a “man of means”, she had to become a “woman of means” and this could only be achieved through a dowry.

And it is true that the convention of dowries severely limited the marriage options for many women, including ones from the upper middle classes who still held to the importance of respectability and not marrying below their family, but whose immediate family had suffered financial losses. And even Thomas mentions during the reading of his father's will (I think) that dowries for Tony and Clara represented a draining of capital from the firm. (His marriage, of course, represented a cash infusion.)

I find Christian quite interesting. Is he merely a dissolute young man or is he actually suffering from some obscure illness, perhaps an emotional/psychological problem. The mentions of his eyes always floating around , not looking at people, not making eye contact. What is going on inside him, I wonder.

Sue wrote: "I find Christian quite interesting. Is he merely a dissolute young man or is he actually suffering from some obscure illness, perhaps an emotional/psychological problem..."

Personally I think he has a problem - first menioned when the greatgrandfather was still alive and Christian mentioned swallowing the peach (?) stone, I also think there is something not right with Tony, I don't know exactly what but the way in which she reacts and tells the story of her marriage has an oddness to it at least to my mind.

Anyhow while I was drinking beer and eating pork chops I had a thought that the Kesselmeyer/Gruenlich/Buddenbrook scene and the quelling the '49 disturbances are parallels with a higher status/person in command of special knowledge taking adavantage of a person/people without that knowledge and treating them as a fool. Buddenbrook was been taken for a ride (excuse my UK colloquialism please!) by those Hamburg merchants who had Gruenlich court poor Tony with such insistance for the sake of her dowery while Buddenbrook tricked the protesters into going home. It was just a thought, brought on as I said by beer and pork chops and that the two incidents are juxtaposed - which there isn't any need for. A sort of what goes around comes around idea maybe.

In passing the widowed Frau Konselin' prayer group, I'll point out Mrs Himmelbuergerin (Mrs Heaven's Citizen!) and the Paul Gerhardt reference - he was a seventeenth century (?) hymn writer, his hymns are still standards in the lutheran/reformed church for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaXAkg...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIn2Vz...
the religion here reminds me of the equally cloying
religiousity of Christine Holk in Fontane's novel Irretrievable.

Thanks for the translation of "Mrs Heaven's Citizen". That so perfectly fits the prayer group.

As for Tony, I agree she seems to have a lack of self-monitoring, if that's the right phrase. Is that the result of being pampered and spoiled all her life or is she uninhibited for some neurological reason. (To push this to a ridiculous extreme, have the "best" families been marrying each other for too long?)

It is a terrible translation, too literal, but it is a very Dickensian name, you know just defining the character by their surname!

Yes, lack of self monitoring, it is that kind of thing. She talks about herself in a way that, in my opinion, most people wouldn't.

Tony is a child, Christian seems to have some sort of neurological/physical problem, Clara is a withdrawn religious fanatic, while only Tom seems to be clear-minded and ready to take the reins of the company. Yet both parents seem to enable all the children in their roles. Is this progressive parenting or an inability to see their offspring with a clear lens?
(Which I think all parents are guilty of, actually, myself included). As long as Tom is able to take on the responsibilities of the firm, it doesn't seem to matter what the others do.

Diane wrote: "Tony is a child, Christian seems to have some sort of neurological/physical problem, Clara is a withdrawn religious fanatic, while only Tom seems to be clear-minded and ready to take the reins of t..."

I keep thinking Christian has syphilis.

Could Christian possibly be autistic?

I think that Mann might have been trying to depict three different attitudes towards life with the three Buddenbrooks.
Tom is self-contained, responsible, the one preserving tradition and putting order. He represents authority. Tony is both shallow and fragile, she is also easily influenced I wonder if Mann wasn't punishing the figure of bourgeois women with her character. But at the same time, she shows her own mind in some little ways, for example with her obvious distaste for the Pastors and her quick wit and nonchalance. I admire her defiant little outbursts and that somehow balances out her other flaws.
And Christian doesn't seem to care much for anything but for amusing himself and his audience with his funny stories. He doesn't seem to get on well neither with Tony nor with Tom. Whether he is an hypochondriac or a shirker is still to be seen...

Oh, and I have one question:
Why even after the divorce Mann keeps referring about Tony as "Madame Grünlich"?

In that time was there any provision to change one's name back to maiden name? It would seem that Tony was "stuck"with her married identity unless/until she could marry again. Perhaps that is why Mann refers to her as Madame Grúnlich...to emphasize her predicament. Though her husband was despicable, she was punished because she was a divorcee.

Jonathan wrote: "Diane wrote: " It must have provided some satisfaction to be able to take Tony and Erika with him, even though all blame for the marriage lay on his shoulders."

All blame?"

Johann Buddenbrook basically forced Tony to marry Grünlich. If Tony had refused, she would likely have been cast off. Johann Buddenbrook is, of course, not to blame for the fact that Grünlich was the way he was, but he is to blame for the fact that he was taken in by Grünlich (that Grünlich's supposed wealth and social standing were somehow superior to Morten, that Grünlich was able to hoodwink Johann Buddenbrook based solely on his rank, his family connections). Maybe Tony should have rebelled, but rebellion would have likely caused a serious rift.

Both Tony and Johann were victims of Grünlich, but Johann manipulated and coerced Tony into this marriage (and by raising his daughter to be malleable and by raising her to consider her family, her wealth and her social position as all-important, Johann, and by extension, his wife had basically created a perfect platform for a crook like Grünlich).

Sue wrote: "I find Christian quite interesting. Is he merely a dissolute young man or is he actually suffering from some obscure illness, perhaps an emotional/psychological problem. The mentions of his eyes al..."

I think Christian is quite neurotic. His psychosomatic symptoms feel and are real to him although there might not be a physiological reason for them. Even his stomach ache at the beginning has always seemed to me to be more stress related than due to an overabundance of rich foods (although there is probably a correlation between them).

Laima wrote: "Could Christian possibly be autistic?"

Would he not be more withdrawn if he were autistic? I would actually consider serious and withdrawn Clara as more of a candidate for autism than Christian. Now I am just speculating, but with Christian being such a social butterfly and unable to commit etc., he would more likely be a candidate for ADHD.

Gundula wrote: "Sue wrote: "I find Christian quite interesting. Is he merely a dissolute young man or is he actually suffering from some obscure illness, perhaps an emotional/psychological problem. The mentions of..."

I agree re Christian seeming neurotic although when he started complaining of his left leg pain I half expected him to develop and die of a brain tumor or something quite dramatic.

I think Dolores' analysis (see note 25) makes a lot of sense. I don't think Christian has any real medical issues. He seems self-absorbed and lazy: a narsicistic hedonist.Tony has my sympathy because of the three she has the least options. I'm shocked that she made the same mistake twice but each time she did it for the good of the family. They're all worshipping a false God but Christian seems to be the happiest of them because he pays the least attention to appearances. Of course that might change.

Dolors wrote: "I think that Mann might have been trying to depict three different attitudes towards life with the three Buddenbrooks.
Tom is self-contained, responsible, the one preserving tradition and putting o..."

I think your analysis of the characters of Tomas, Christian and Tony is spot on Dolors! I’ve also been wondering whether Tony’s characterisation is indicative of Mann’s contempt for bourgeois women in general or whether he wanted to illustrate what happens when you allow an individual to come short of his/her potential by failing to provide them with education and the right stimuli. I can’t help feeling that Tony, in a different and more suitable environment, would have shone for all her faults.
I think something similar applies to Christian. Being a man he was educated and prepared to take his place as an active member of society and was not expected to be a passive dependent as Tony was. But he gives me the impression of being a round peg trying to fit in a square hole. He was educated in preparation for a role in society he was quite unsuited for. Mann was always hinting at his abilities and talents, but they happened to be talents irrelevant to the role he was destined for by the accident of birth. He has a quick mind and a strong sense of the ridiculous; he loves languages and the arts in general, the theatre in particular. He might well have pursued a successful creative career. But this would have been unacceptable in the family and the social milieu in which he is expected to live. Since he cannot express himself openly he becomes ‘the king’s fool’. I suspect his hypochondria and neuroticism are also the result of this repression.

Gary wrote: "I think Dolores' analysis (see note 25) makes a lot of sense. I don't think Christian has any real medical issues. He seems self-absorbed and lazy: a narsicistic hedonist.Tony has my sympathy becau..."

Yes, Dolors and Gary, and also Marina! You have stated some opinions that I also find true.

I think that Christian is the one least interested in family values and legacy, he seeks a different life for himself. I think that the incident with the peach, when he was younger, was in fact an acting and shows an inclination towards dramatization. He always had the ability for acting, he likes to draw attention, and his love for the theater is only natural. I was thinking that maybe he could be gay, but I couldn't find anything to support that theory until now.

Ema wrote: "Gary wrote: "I think Dolores' analysis (see note 25) makes a lot of sense. I don't think Christian has any real medical issues. He seems self-absorbed and lazy: a narsicistic hedonist.Tony has my s..."

The idea that he might be gay passed through my mind too, but I also gave it up for lack of evidence.

Sue wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Sue wrote: "I find Christian quite interesting. Is he merely a dissolute young man or is he actually suffering from some obscure illness, perhaps an emotional/psychological problem...."

Yes, it was this pain in the leg that made me think of syphilis. The symptoms for this disease varied from person to person.

Syphilis was a major problem in the nineteenth century, given that young men of the likes of Christian could not really have relations with the sort of women they were supposed to marry and had to resort to prostitutes.

This kind of society with a very defined role for the sexes, affected the lives of women (Tony) but young men also.

This disease fatally afflicted personalities such as Schumann, Schubert, Manet, etc.. to name just a few.

http://thesmartset.com/article/articl...

Of course, I do not know about Christian. I am keeping to the reading schedule and the pain in the leg may be nothing. I do not have the benefit of hindsight.

But I do not see Christian as autistic. He is more of a socialite who is out of place in his family. And ADHD seems to me a modern problem.

Marina wrote: "Dolors wrote: "I think that Mann might have been trying to depict three different attitudes towards life with the three Buddenbrooks.
Tom is self-contained, responsible, the one preserving traditio..."

I think that is spot on, that in the right environment and with the right stimuli, both Christian and Tony would have likely been successful. Christian would probably have been either a great actor or a dramatist who writes successful plays, but his family and even bourgeois society (if his family had actually been in agreement with Christian pursuing such a career or calling) would very likely not have accepted this (and I think like Tony, Christian is not strong enough to completely sever his ties to family and society like some 19th century artists and writers had had to do in order to pursue their crafts).

Kalliope wrote: "Sue wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Sue wrote: "I find Christian quite interesting. Is he merely a dissolute young man or is he actually suffering from some obscure illness, perhaps an emotional/psychologi..."

While I think that ADHD is more common in today's world and is often also overused, I also think that it is not just a modern problem, but one that is more readily noticed and/or diagnosed now (there are many diseases, especially with conditions like autism, dyspraxia, NLD and the like that definitely existed in days gone by but were simply not recognised). I am not saying that Christian has to have ADHD, but it at least should be thought of as a possibility. Also, with the copious amounts of wines and beers that were being drunk (and the fact that beer and wine was often cleaner and less germ-ridden than water) one also has to wonder wether Chritian's mother might have been drinking wine, beer etc. during her pregnancy and might have been prescribed medical concoctions that had a mostly alcohol base, thus some of Christian's problems might be the result of FAS.

But syphilis is also a possibility. And when I think about the fact that Christian's problems, even his health issues started when he was a young boy, it might not even have been him who contracted the disease himself, he might have been born with it (maybe Johann Buddenbrook had syphilis or was carrying it, that is how Henry VIII's children likely contracted their health problems, from their father).

May I ask those members who have already read the book not to include conclusions that can only be reached when the full novel has been read?.

Otherwise they can fashion people's opinions before they are able to draw their own.

The weekly reads are conceived to follow the pace of the novel and the way the author chose to present events and develop the characters.

There is a separate thread for thematic discussions for those who may want to jump ahead.

Thank you all.

I'm curious about what people think of Elisabeth. She seems to take on a more active role after Johann's death but other than her extreme piety we don't have much information about what she thinks. She seems detached from her children but also overly indulgent.

I am late to the party, but I've managed to catch up on the reading schedule. Generally, I find Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family to be a fascinating and compelling read.

I've been quite interested in questions regarding the differences between the characteristics in Thomas and Christian. However, I remember how when we were first introduced to them as children that the observer of the two predicted that Thomas would become a merchant, while Christopher, who was reading Cicero's oration against Cataline would occupy quite a different station in his life.

The proposed diagnoses for Christian are quite fascinating. Each having merit. While there is disagreement on whether he was autistic, there is the diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome, formerly a separate diagnosis in the DSM IV. I seem to recall that the diagnosis has either been subsumed under the diagnosis of Autism in the DSM-V, or found to be in disfavor.

However, one of the distinguishing characteristics of Asperger's was that one so diagnosed was quite unaware of the impact of his social interactions with others. Christian's recounting of his various adventures and his "blood and thunder" stories, as Brother Thomas called them, horrified the other members of the Buddenbrooks family present when Christian related them. Christian was oblivious to the effect of his stories upon his own family.

Of course, Tonie was intrigued by them. As we see Christian becoming a member of the social men's clubs, he becomes central to the evening's goings-on with his story telling. The question is whether Christian is actually capturing his audience's attention, or whether he is actually the target of their laughter. Again, frequently with one diagnosed with Aspergers.

In keeping with Kalliope's request in Message 39, I will not speculate further. However, be assured I do not have the benefit of hindsight as to the ultimate answers regarding Christian. This is a first read for me.

I have read that William Faulkner kept a copy of Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family, signed by Mann in his library, considering it one of the greatest, of not the greatest novels of the century at the time he made that assertion. I do see shades of "Buddenbrooks" influencing Faulkner, particularly with the decline of various families in Yoknapatawpha County.

My thanks to Kris for the invitation to this group. I have followed the discussion with great interest and look forward to more great discussion as we continue our weekly schedule.

Mike wrote: "I am late to the party, but I've managed to catch up on the reading schedule. Generally, I find Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family to be a fascinating and compelling read.

I've been quite inte..."

Good point, I forgot about Asperger's (or conditions like dyspraxia and NLD where individuals are often unaware of society and societal norms and who are also often not able to read body language, the non verbal aspects of language).

Mike wrote: "I am late to the party, but I've managed to catch up on the reading schedule. Generally, I find Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family to be a fascinating and compelling read.

I've been quite inte..."

Mike, any speculation is welcome, as long as one is speculating and not projecting back the end.

I have been speculating also.. and I think that is part of the fun of the group read which takes place in a step-by-step fashion (versus a traditional book club discussion in which everybody gives his/her opinion at the end of the read)...

The author/narrator may be tracing a development that we want to follow as it unfolds.

My take of Christian's stories to the family was not that he had any Asperge or autistic syndrome, but that he has seen part of the world that his family has not, that his mind is full of different settings and adventures and that he does not fit well now that he is back with them.

For anybody who has lived away from home, the shock of coming back is often a lot more traumatic than leaving had been.

I'm with you on that Kalliope. He's the only one to have lived away for any length of time. He seems strange compared to Tom but he seems to share non-conformist tendencies with Tony.

Kalliope wrote: "Mike wrote: "I am late to the party, but I've managed to catch up on the reading schedule. Generally, I find Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family to be a fascinating and compelling read.

I've be..."

Oh, I highly agree with your opinion as a possible explanation. And I would dare not project to the end. However, with the various opinions shared by other readers, I added a possibility that had not been considered. Respectfully, I do find it peculiar, that having been away from his family, that they have become, in essence, strangers to him, and he is not conscious of the effect of his disquieting stories on his family.

Yes, it is fun to speculate. My background is in psychology and the law. Needless to say, that has an impression on my "read" of the personalities in
Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family.

As I mentioned in my original post, "In keeping with Kalliope's request in Message 39, I will not speculate further. However, be assured I do not have the benefit of hindsight as to the ultimate answers regarding Christian. This is a first read for me."

Mea Culpa, if you find the book's readers' or my speculations inappropriate.

Gary wrote: "I'm with you on that Kalliope. He's the only one to have lived away for any length of time. He seems strange compared to Tom but he seems to share non-conformist tendencies with Tony."

The autism issue also came up in the Proust group, but it was dismissed.

I am not saying that autism and its derivatives did not exist in the 19th century but that in a world with no penicillin and in which urban hygene was in a dismal state, the issues of psychologically-not-quite-fitting-in were just sheer luxury, and that reflect more our concerns and values and assumptions.

Mike wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Mike wrote: "I am late to the party, but I've managed to catch up on the reading schedule. Generally, I find Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family to be a fascinating and compelli..."

Mike, your speculations are welcome, because they are speculations. That is what I meant in message 43.

We are all interpreting based on our own background and experiences.

I think speculation, as long as it is just that, fits well within the description of this thread. This is my first reading of the book also and I'm enjoying analyzing this family and their time.

One of the features Christian demonstrates that seems to be mentioned every time he interacts with others is the floating or shifting eyes, Whether this implies lack of eye contact alone or lack of eye focus, it struck me as an odd feature to mention so frequently. Is this a reminder of his lack of involvement in ordinary life or inability to do so? That is one of my questions.

Kalliope wrote:
I am not saying that autism and its derivatives did not exist in the 19th century but that in a world with no penicillin and in which urban hygene was in a dismal state, the issues of psychologically-not-quite-fitting-in were just sheer luxury, and that reflect more our concerns and values and assumptions. "

Kall, this is a good summary of my thoughts on this issue -- but I agree with you that group members can disagree and speculate as long as their speculations do not include spoilers beyond this week's reading! Your suggestion of syphilis as an explanation for some of Christian's behavior also strikes me as possible, and as a disease that Thomas Mann would be aware of when he developed Christian's character.

In any case, both Christian and Tony seem to me to represent examples of a man and a woman not fitting well into their class and culture. In Tony's case, her desires for an elegant life have been fostered by her culture, but her outspokenness and unwillingness to fully embody gender roles of her time make her suspect, exacerbating the consequences of her divorce. And Christian is not adhering to merchant-class expectations for appropriate male behavior. Sue, I agree with you that Mann's frequent references to Christian's lack of eye contact suggests his dreaminess, his lack of groundedness.

I'm also interested in Mann's treatment of religion in the novel. Any thoughts on that?

And welcome, Mike -- so glad to see you here!

I think speculation is absolutely fine, and I am not going to stop speculating. And I don't think I am in any way giving spoilers because what I am speculating about I was not even all that aware of the first time I read the novel (in the late 80s).

And apropos what Sue has mentioned with Christian's lack of eye contact (which is something I notice now and certainly did not notice the first time I read the book), lack of eye contact is a major feature in the conditions that have been mentioned (autism, Aspergers, dyspraxia, non verbal learning disability etc.). I have NLD (only diagnosed two years ago) and one of the main issues I have always had with both family and strangers is that I have to really concentrate to make eye contact, that more often than not, my eyes are anywhere but focused on the person to whom I am talking (and my lack of eye contact has also gotten me more than a few critical comments from both family members and strangers). And my NLD is not something that suddenly appeared two years ago, it has been part of me and a problem for me all of my life, but it was/is a condition that was just not recognised in the past (and in the late 19th and early 20th century, a condition such as NLD or Asperger's would have been even less recognised, unless the manifestations were really really severe).

Yes Gundula, your comments are just fine! I was agreeing with Kall on a general principle, not indirectly criticizing any group members.