THE Group for Authors! discussion

I've been checking out Presswords and it appears that an ISBN number is required before you can publish a book. There appear to be a number of online websites for obtaining this...

Can anyone recommend a site?

There is Smashwords which appears to provide free ISBN numbers for self-publishing books. You could try that.

You can also buy them from here, which I think is the official agency. http://www.isbn.nielsenbook.co.uk/con...

OK, so legal question then - why can Smashwords offer one for free when you have to buy them from other places? The site I looked up which seemed to be the official US government ISBN site said it cost $125! Plus, Smashwords says you have to have a separate ISBN for ebooks and print books. So how do you get an ISBN for a print book if it isn't printed yet?

Heidi wrote: "OK, so legal question then - why can Smashwords offer one for free when you have to buy them from other places? The site I looked up which seemed to be the official US government ISBN site said it..."

Because ISBN prices go down as you buy more. One is $125. One of ten is $25. One of a thousand is $1. Smashwords and CreateSpace buy by the ten thousands or more—and collect royalties from you. So the 10 cents or whatever they pay are negligible....

OK, so if I want to get my book printed, can I get an ISBN from Smashwords for that too?

No. Smashwords only produces e-books. But CreateSpace, Lulu, Bookbaby, and similar print-on-demand services have similar deals.

You cannot use the same ISBN for an e-book and for the print edition of the same book. Each format (e-book, paperback, hardcover, audio book, etc.) must have its own ISBN.

Thanks for your responses! I did some more research myself after starting this thread and found Neilsen- unfortunately their site is down for maintenance this weekend. I was investigating Presswords (thought I would try publishing a short story to see how it all works) and it asked for an ISBN number.

You can phone Nielsen. But they are quite expensive. They are the official ISBN site for British authors, I think. I don't know their importance for other countries. They don't always recommend ISBN's in the UK but I wish I had bought some when I started writing as it opens your scope for selling. I shall buy some when I've recouped some of my expenses.

A related question: we publish a book that we print via offset. We're looking at also using a POD press; in other words, we would have traditionally printed books in inventory and the same book would be available via POD. We have our own ISBN numbers. Does the "POD" edition need a different ISBN number from the "traditionally printed" edition of the same book? I'm inclined to think not, but...

Hi Elaine, I am from Canada and you can go to a site to get free ISBN numbers. I have used it to get 3 ISBNs already. The site is very easy to use and is great - they well provide an ISBN number for books that are not yet published. The link is http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/ci...

Try it out, I am not sure if you have to be from Canada.

Let me know how you make out

Tony

Hi, Everybody--here's a site I just found http://www.epubbud.com/isbn.php
which offers individual ISBN numbers for $9.00 each (less if you buy more than one). Looks good to me. I'll let you know how I make out. Julie K.

I forgot to mention, that there is no charge for the ISBNs at
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/ci...


Tony

Devorah wrote: "A related question: we publish a book that we print via offset. We're looking at also using a POD press; in other words, we would have traditionally printed books in inventory and the same book wou..."

That's a good question. My guess is that so long as the offset printer and the POD printer are both producing the same kind of output (cloth or paper), that is one edition and one ISBN, just as one ePub file needs one ISBN whether it appears on the iBookstore, the Kobo Store, or even (through conversion) the Kindle Store.

But it might be worth asking the folks at Bowker or whatever your national agency is. If you find out otherwise, do let us know!

Here's what I have done with my ISBNs. Many publishers, such as Smashwords or Create Space will offer you an ISBN for free. In fact, at create space, if you want to sell through their library channels or academic markets, you must use their ISBN. My two books are both family and kid-oriented, so I did use them.

The disadvantage is that Smashwords or Createspace show up as the publisher. This highlights the fact that you are self published. Being self-published makes less of a difference these days, but for only $250, you can buy 10 of your own ISBNs, For $500 you can get 100, and for $1,000 you get a thousand. Check these prices, but I'm close.

So WHY would you want your own? Well, you have direct control over the description and pricing of the book. You can lower the price or raise it without having to ask Create Space or others to change this information for you. Granted, some outfits let you it directly. But I was able to change the name of my publishing company from Lightfoot Productions (which I've used for multimedia locally for years) to New Meme Media. I didn't lost my identity -- I kept the same ISBNs.

You may as well buy up a bunch of ISBNs. They are a real mark of credibility, and they let you have a ebook version, print version, large print version and so on. I have a color version of one of my books. Very pricey, but I wanted to give it to friends and family as a special gift. So I did burn an ISBN.

One last note, a bit off topic, when I created a Create Space "Library Edition" of my book, I lowered the price to help sell it to libraries. I have a soft spot in my heart for them. But I was surprised to see it show up, at a lower price, on Amazon. I had deliberately unchecked the box to distribute to Amazon and the other usual retail outlets--but it showed up anyway. (The Doggone Christmas List has two versions, and The Stupid Minivan THREE - all have different ISBNs.)

So I had do take the price back up on the library edition so as not to undercut myself.

Hope this helps. Bowker is the sole supplier for US ISBNs, and they are great to deal with. I received prompt and courteous service even though I'm small potatoes. I also am able to be a PUBLISHER (think tax advantages) and can create different identities with PRODUCT Lines. My humor is an "imprint," Or So It Seems. I plan an academic books with the same publisher but a different Imprint. You can do this easily at Bowker by just filling in a box and requesting they add an imprint. No cost. Takes a day. So if you write kids books, mystery and so on, you can differentiate your books with a different imprint. Check out the front of most print books, and you'll see the children's books are imprints of a bigger outfit. Emulate this to good effect.

Robb

A thread on a KDP community thread points out that if you buy an ISBN from ePub Bud, ePub Bud will be listed as the publisher in various databases, and may even receive royalty payments. The thread is at https://kdp.amazon.com/community/thre....

Julie wrote: "Hi, Everybody--here's a site I just found http://www.epubbud.com/isbn.php
which offers individual ISBN numbers for $9.00 each (less if you buy more than one). Looks good to me. I'll let you know..."

Ooooooooh! Thanks for letting me know. I'll try to follow Robb's advice. Julie K.

C.P. wrote: "Devorah wrote: "A related question: we publish a book that we print via offset. We're looking at also using a POD press; in other words, we would have traditionally printed books in inventory and t..."

I should have known you'd know, CP. That's my thought: the content is the same. It's just a different manufacturer. You don't need a new ISBN if you switch presses, right? This would be like using two different presses to manufacture the same book.

There are optional fields that describe the physical makeup of the book. This helps buyers know exactly what they are getting. I would go with different ISBNs to be clear on what they will get, especially if you don't accept returns.

Tony wrote: "Hi Elaine, I am from Canada and you can go to a site to get free ISBN numbers. I have used it to get 3 ISBNs already. The site is very easy to use and is great - they well provide an ISBN number fo..."

I concur. As a Canadian I have already obtained two just to get a headstart while promoting my book on sites like GR and others. It is not required, but nice to have. I know when uploading a book on GR for example, you leave the field blank if there is no ISBN (or you don't have one yet) as many books out there are produced as books and sold but in a business sense are more or less crafts than anything. They are printed pages and bound, nothing more. GR accepts this, as it's not a book seller site. (However, who knows--Amazon's involvement might make this a priority later on. For now, it's not.)

Devorah wrote: "I should have known you'd know, CP. That's my thought: the content is the same. It's just a different manufacturer. You don't need a new ISBN if you switch presses, right? This would be like using two different presses to manufacture the same book."

The content, yes, but more important, the format is the same. You need a new ISBN for each format: hardcover, trade paperback, mass-market paperback (if any), audiobook, e-book. I don't see why you would need a new ISBN to print the exact same book format at a different printer, but I don't know for sure....

C.P. wrote: "Devorah wrote: "I should have known you'd know, CP. That's my thought: the content is the same. It's just a different manufacturer. You don't need a new ISBN if you switch presses, right? This woul..."

When we get a little closer, I'll contact Bowker and see if I can get guidance from them. But I'm thinking our guess is correct.

For my last two books, as a publisher (Cosmic Visionary Music & Books) I used separate Bowker-obtained ISBNs not only for paper and ebooks, but for specific ebook formats. In other words, one for paperback, one for .epub format and one for .mobi (Kindle) format. This is how I read the suggestions on the Bowker website and since I'm CEO, this is what I did. But now I'm about to publish a new nonfiction book and I'm wondering if I can use the same ISBN for both formats of ebook, thus using two total. BTW, I buy my ISBNs in blocks of 10. Using up three per book is more expensive of course, so I'm thinking this over. Also, there's some indication that listing all three ISBNs, including the .mobi (Kindle) format ISBN, on the copyright page of all formats will cause certain retailers NOT to carry your ebook because that directs people to Amazon. I noted that B&N offers the paperback version, but not the ebook, of one of my novels. Does anyone have experience with these issues?

I'd suggest you take a look at Smashwords. They take a 30% bite, but get your ebook in all stores. I like that Smashwords lets you adjust your price up and down as need be, and they'll provide you with a free ISBN. You can direct people, such as reviewers, directly to SmashWords, and you'll get a bigger pecenatage of the take. They also have a coupon system that lets you create coupon codes (free to you) that allow you to giveaway your book for a limited time or discount it. VERY handy and much more flexible than Amazon. Amazon will sell just the .mobi format. Smashwords will, after conversion by their meatgrinder, sell in ALL formats. Epub, Mobi, PDF, RTF, and the formats for Kobo, iPad and Sony.

Lianne wrote: "For my last two books, as a publisher (Cosmic Visionary Music & Books) I used separate Bowker-obtained ISBNs not only for paper and ebooks, but for specific ebook formats. In other words, one for p..."

Hi Lianne

I have published a few ebooks and we use the same ISBN for .mobi and .epub files. I think the recommendation is to have one ISBN per format but we have found that one ISBN for ebooksand one ISBN for paperbacks works fine. Good luck.

I would be weary of the Smashwords meatgrinder for the reasons that it is called a 'meatgrinder'. I have never used it but I have heard that it's not the best solution if formatting is important to you....

I've heard this too, but had no problems whatsoever. That said, my books are mostly text with some pictures. If you have charts and tables, as many non-fiction books do, then your mileage may vary. But you can, with Smashwords, upload your files as often as you like to tweak them. No charge. I've used (and like) Bookbaby. They, too, can provide an ISBN and give them a word doc, they'll hand code it. Prices vary up front from about $99 to $200 ish. I went with the deluxe package. They took on all the headaches of formatting. Neat. But I had problems with that book not being as thoroughly proofed as I thought... and I was told that they'd do one free update--prior to final approval of a proof. From there, they bill you. Understandable since it is all done by a live person. You also can't change the price around, nor do they, as I write this, have a direct-from-bookbaby distribution (no coupons). They do provide you with a DRM free copy. Bookbaby also passes along 100% of the net to them. Nice. Your fee you pay for the initial conversion covers the first year, after that there's a reasonable $15 or so yearly fee to service your account.

Each has advantages. Since there is NO charge for Smashwords, there's no risk to upload to meatgrinder and format your book. If money's an issue, I'd give SmashWords a try. If you don't want to hassle formatting, and can spare $100, go with Bookbaby. Either will get you into all the ebook retailers.

Thanks for these tips -- Actually, I'm with Ingram for POD and CoreSource for ebooks, which gives me global distribution and total control over all aspects. To work with them (Lightning Source is the POD branch) you must be a legitimate publishing company, which I am. Trouble is, I'm also a full-time author, so I've been a bit laggard in following up on the ebook situation while working on my new book.

Robb, I recommend Smashwords to all the independent authors who come my way, however (and on my blog posts on this subject). If you're new to it all, it's an excellent way to avoid all the business hassles I must deal with! Not to mention, the endless hours I spend with Indesign designing our books to look nice. I outsource the ebook conversions to a contractor who does hand-coding so they still look good. But I've fallen down on the follow-up with all the varied retailers and their individual needs, and I have not gotten much hand-holding from Ingram/CoreSource ebook division (never will; they don't work that way). So I'm still interested in anyone's feedback/experience about using different ISBNs for the two formats: .epub and .mobi, both of which I have out in the marketplace for each book. Appreciate your input on this, Christopher! Thank you both!

Lianne—
The Bowker site does say you need a separate ISBN for the MOBI and ePub formats. Devorah is right about that.

The complication is that you can upload an ePub file to Kindle Direct Publishing, so long as you have not applied DRM, and KDP will convert it for sale (and apply DRM, if you so request). So is that one format or two?

I have always assumed one. And Folium Book Studio, from which I purchased the e-ISBN, also treats the e-book as one file uploaded to different sites and requiring one ISBN.

I would guess that if you, as the publisher, create separate ePub and MOBI files and sell them, then you might need two—to be safe, if nothing else. But I am not an expert in this area, so I would suggest checking with the people at Bowker to be sure.

And do let us know what you find out!

I have different ISBNs for mobi and ePub. Actually, I have an ASIN for the Kindle version and the smashwords ISBN for the mobi and ePub versions.
Related question: I'm planning to reissue my novel with a new cover. New ISBN or no? I think the librarians said I should use a new ISBN but I don't want readers who bought the first edition to feel like they were hoodwinked into buying the same book with a revised cover thinking it was a completely new book. Espec. as I'll be following that reissue with a sequel which IS a completely new book.

FWIW, when I upload a new cover to Smashwords, it doesn't say anything about generating a new ISBN.

I re-issued *Cosmic Dancer* with a new cover and didn't change the ISBN.

Thanks, Karen and Lianne.

David wrote: "Hllo everyone,
I'm new at Goodreads. Can someone please tell me if I can use one ISBN on five different self-publishing e-book web sites w/out buying five different ISBNs?

Thank you all,
Dave"

Not too sure what you're asking. An ISBN is merely a code given to a version of a book. So, since my books come out in different formats, the hardback as one ISBN, the trade paperback has another, and then there are two more for the mass-market UK and mass-market US versions.

In other words, if it's the same book, it's the same ISBN. If they're different versions, they have different ISBNs.

Does that help?

I did some more research on the Bowker sites and they're still arguing strenuously for different ISBNs for EACH ebook format. But, in a position paper issued by the ISBN agency, it seems they're losing this battle, and they hedged and said that if your .mobi format is being sold by one retailer only (i.e., Amazon), then it might be okay not to give it a separate ISBN -- unless you need it as publisher for your internal tracking. (And then you could assign it some other kind of number for your own purposes if you wished.)

They ranted a bit about people creating all sorts of fake ISBNs, or "e-ISBN"s, which actually don't exist, and basically threw up their hands and said they'd been issuing these numbers since the early 1960s, when books were paper only and needed tracking through all their handlers -- distributors, wholesalers, retailers, publishers, libraries, etc. They admitted it's all a confusing mess right now, and they sounded like their system might go down with much of the rest of the archaic publishing industry, to be replaced by something new. DOI? (Digital Object Identifiers?) That's where I stopped reading; DOI was too much for me!

So, I've done a little math and realized that my next 10-ISBN purchase will stretch for 5 books if I set a policy of using only two ISBNs: One for paper and one for ebook (.epub, which does go out into the marketplace in many places). Not sure what I'll do when I upload my programmed .mobi files to Kindle; but I know ISBN is not required there, and certainly not for my record-keeping. I did publish one hardcover plus ebooks, no paperback; but if I routinely published in hardcover and paperback and 2 ebook formats -- whew. I'd rather conserve on the pricey ISBN numbers I'd have to purchase.

Don't know if this helps anyone -- but it's pretty much a mess in the marketplace right now. Do your best to make your book(s) findable!

P.S. This also will get me around the problem of putting a Kindle or .mobi ISBN on the copyright pages, which apparently offends those retailers who've declared war on Amazon (B&N, most notably). :) Now I won't have to prepare separate book files for the .epub versions.

DOI is an online cataloguing service. Every (nonfiction) article I supply to one publisher has its own DOI. You have to have signed up for the service for that to have any meaning.

(And no, I don't know how that is done. I just supply the files. Mine are based on ISSN plus unique identifying numbers, though.)

Devorah wrote: "I have different ISBNs for mobi and ePub. Actually, I have an ASIN for the Kindle version and the smashwords ISBN for the mobi and ePub versions.
Related question: I'm planning to reissue my novel ..."


From a GR policy perspective.

If a book with an ISBN is republished with a new cover but no ISBN then a alternate cover edition is created with NO ISBN in the isbn fields. It is noted in the description . The ISBN remains with the first book published and the first cover published

Paula wrote: "Devorah wrote: "I have different ISBNs for mobi and ePub. Actually, I have an ASIN for the Kindle version and the smashwords ISBN for the mobi and ePub versions.
Related question: I'm planning to r..."

And if it's published with a new cover but the "old" ISBN?

Devorah wrote: "Paula wrote: "Devorah wrote: "I have different ISBNs for mobi and ePub. Actually, I have an ASIN for the Kindle version and the smashwords ISBN for the mobi and ePub versions.
Related question: I'm..."

I missed the word new out in my msg above

If a book with an ISBN is republished with a new cover but no NEW ISBN then a alternate cover edition is created but NO ISBN in the isbn fields. The ISBN is noted in the description . The ISBN remains with the first book published and the first cover published

Thanks for the clarification, Paula.

Bowker (where you get ISBNs for your books in US) now has a self-publishing page. I figure, get the answers from the horse's mouth as to how the ISBN thing works. Personally, I plan on getting them. Especially since they send the listing out to major bookstores and search engines. They have some useful articles too. Glad to see this finally happen.

http://www.selfpublishedauthor.com./g...

C.P. and anyone else who was interested in the answer to the "old book, new cover, new ISBN?" question. Bowker says, "Not necessarily. A new ISBN is warranted only when the changes mean that the changed product is distinctly different from the previous version and customers would be confused."

Keep in mind, however, that on Goodreads adding a new cover to an existing ISBN means that new cover will have a listing without any ISBN. It would be an alternate-cover edition, and the original cover would stay with the ISBN.

rivka wrote: "Keep in mind, however, that on Goodreads adding a new cover to an existing ISBN means that new cover will have a listing without any ISBN. It would be an alternate-cover edition, and the original c..."

Yup, got that. Thanks.

If I'm reading all this correctly, the most prudent thing to do is to buy as many ISBNs as you can afford. So, if you've got $1,000 go for it. If your wallet is slimmer, go for 100 ISBNs for $575, because it's advisable to have separate ISBNs for each version of your book (e-book, paperback, etc.). That way you can price them differently in different markets, update covers (and assign them new ISBNs), and track your sales (which hardly seems the issue with most self-pubbed writers). To just buy 10 ISBNs for $250 is shortsighted because you could very easily need 5 ISBNs or so per book.

All of this hinges on the ISBN system staying in place--otherwise you're stuck with an expensive cache of numbers.

Cindy wrote: "Bowker (where you get ISBNs for your books in US) now has a self-publishing page..."

The Website has a lot of good information on it. Thanks for sharing.

Devorah wrote: "C.P. and anyone else who was interested in the answer to the "old book, new cover, new ISBN?" question. Bowker says, "Not necessarily. A new ISBN is warranted only when the changes mean that the ch..."

Good to know. Thanks!

And yes, a very useful site.

I thought so too. Lots of helpful articles there.

Holly wrote: "Tony wrote: "Hi Elaine, I am from Canada and you can go to a site to get free ISBN numbers. I have used it to get 3 ISBNs already. The site is very easy to use and is great - they well provide an I..."

Hi

I am a Canadian in England - I think you have to be living in Canada t use this site.