Fans of Interracial Romance discussion

OK, so I appreciate stories that showcase the whole love comes in all sizes/packages thing. I do. In fact, LOVE 'em.

But why on earth is it that so many IR novels are playing into the "she's fat at a whopping size 14, and the guy is handsome so nobody knows what he see's in her" thing? Say what? American authors, get real. Take a look around you at the AVERAGE woman in this country and who she is walking around town with. lol I'm not a man, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say out loud that for a good portion of the male population, being more than a single digit size does NOT make a woman undesirable to them.

Oh, and one other thing! The perpetual description of black heroines having caramel or latte complexions and light eyes is nonsense too. We are SHOOTING OURSELVES IN THE FOOT as AA women writing this type of nonsense. Evidently we still haven't outlived the stereotypes about beauty that have haunted us since slavery.

OK-rant over.

I actually avoid books with plus size heroines like the plague. This subgenre does nothing for me. Almost all of them feel like the hero is doing the girl a favor by looking her way. I like my couples equally matched. I am admittedly shallow about certain things. Maybe because of my own weight issues I don't like this making-being-out-of-shape-with-cellulite-and-with-guts trend the new "cute". I like fit or a sexy voluptuous figure (Marilyn Monroe was a 14) but there is a difference between fat and Phat. I read romance for the fantasy and average plain janes is way too much reality for me. Rant over.

Oh, I agree about the plane Jane thing; I get rnough reality IN my reality and books are meant to be an outlet. I just don't think pretty comes cookie cutter and I hate it when a writer tries to tell me that not-thin is the same as obese.

I agree about the way they write the stories a lot of the times. As if its extraordinary that an attractive white man would want anything other than a thin woman and everyone around the couple is pointing that out in one way or another.

I'm a fan of healthy and the whole Marilyn thing even if sizes back then were smaller than they are now (read an article about it out of curiosity a couple of years ago). the point you make is still valid in that by today's standards she would have not been considered the ideal bodytype. As a woman, I want to look like one lol. To me, that's as it should be. I guess I just haven't come across any books where the heroine was anything more than maybe a size 16. To me, that's not a size that negates an attractive man BEING attracted.

I am waiting for these IR authors to create these heroines based in reality. The majority of AA women are not shaped like video vixens but that is how they are typically written. Whether they be a size 4 or 14, I guess that is what most believe would only attract a white man to a black women.
And don’t get me started on the self-esteem issues. Just because a AA woman is a size 12 or 14, doesn’t mean she has self-image issues.

Kandyce wrote: "I am waiting for these IR authors to create these heroines based in reality. The majority of AA women are not shaped like video vixens but that is how they are typically written. Whether they be ..."

See in my everyday life I see a lot of younger AA women with some hellified shapes. I mean back in the day you couldn't tell me nothing. lol I actually don't find that unrealistic. When I read an Aliyah Burke or Sienna Mynx novel their heroines coincide with what I imagine the ultra hot guys in these books would really be attracted to. I mean my biggest pet peeve with the Dark Hunter series by Sherrilyn Kenyon was putting Acheron with this plain girl, so my preference isn't just an IR thing.

Maybe it's weird but I can believe in vampires and shifters but suspend my belief that a guy obsessed with his body enough to even have hip arrows wouldn't want a woman with a great body. Not neccesarily stick thin but Kim Kardashian, Janet Jackson, or video vixen body type makes sense to me.

One of my WIP is about BW who is overweight (16-18), and a WW who is good looking. This scenario isn't far-fetched or 'total fantasy.' I've seen other comments about how some readers are tired of the combo. I'm not sure I get the straight out dismissal of the combo-- as it actually is a reality for many IR couples that hook up. Just because a WM is good looking, fine or too- fine doesn't mean he can't find a great partner in a larger than '14' size BW. Sometimes the problem with the weight is an issue more in the woman's self-image than what he's seeing when he looks at her and what he likes in a woman. I speak of my own experience - in my prime, while I thought I was overweight (and by many others standards --I was) -- I continually attracted very handsome men of all races-- who thought I was hot. I wish I had known better how to let go some of my issues and with my whole heart accept what they were trying to tell me. One was a six foot 3, 250 lb Italian Adonis with blond curly hair (his bod was incredible!!), another, an incredibly handsome Spaniard- who tried to get me to look at the beauty of my full-figure. I imagine if I had allowed those relationships to develop-- many people might have marveled at seeing me out with such exceptional-looking men. Maybe if there were IRs around where BW who looked like me-- not all tall, slim-- 'the most beautiful thing he ever saw', or Marilyn Monroe voluptuous-- but were BW who might carry extra weight-- or even have-' gasp' cellulite (even skinny gals have that) who blossomed into their own beauty on the inside and outside, the kind of beauty ANY man can appreciate- then maybe I would have been more confident to not feel so 'out of place' with owning what they were trying to tell me.

While not everything I write will be the big girl with the so-fine white guy-- I will write some stories like that because they reflect a reality I experienced. And-- from what I see from some pics of IR couples all of the net-- their experience, too. I hope maybe I can help some other plus size woman 'get it'-- extra weight be damned, if there's real attraction, the only scale that attraction should be measured by is the hearts of the guy and the girl 'feelin' each other. Don't give up on what could be the love of lifetime cuz you think your body isn't 'good enough'. Yes-- are important, many man and women dig deeper, look for more--personality, chemistry, how a person thinks, how they speak, how they treat others, how they carry themselves, and much more have a lot to do with attraction. Some folks are unique and compelling to that person who is that perfect fit for them. I said all that to say, I like when a writer can make a couple connect and cross and often times I like when weight is thrown into the mix- and realistically dealt with!

Sorry- I haven't been around much, my dad's been in the hospital since the end of December. Life has been challenging- as has been getting to my writing and writing forums.

The thing is that every individual has an "ideal". Even we as women have our own ideal female body type. You have to allow for the fact that that is not an across-the-board thing. One could assume the average thin coveting caucasion woman might look at a video vixen type and think they are disproportionate and gross. lmao. Not all that long ago white women had absolutely no desire for big lips or a big behind. haha! So many things play into who we are and how we think. Culture being a huge one. this is one reason why black women tend to have healthier body image even if we are overweight or not our cultures "ideal". Im sure its very different when you are surrounded by people who worship being super thin. by that same token there are white men, black man all types of men who prefer all kinds of different things. Just because they have what some consider the ideal male form doesn't necessarily mean that THEIR are ideal is what you might expect.People can be attracted to a wide variety of types even if they do have a preference. Doesn't mean a person can't find an array of types attractive when it comes to the opposite sex. Hell, I love blue eyes on a man but my husband has absolutely the most gorgeous pair of light brown eyes I have ever seen.

ITA,Venice! This is exactly what I was trying to say with my rambling lol!

Oh-- and I'm not limiting my comments to the heroine being a size 16-18.There are many, many gorgeous and fantastic BW who are larger sizes than that. And some day I may write an IR with one of them as the heroine. I look forward to reading some more IRs with these ladies finding their hunks, too!

Savannah wrote: "ITA,Venice! This is exactly what I was trying to say with my rambling lol!."

Well- Savannah, I'm so glad to find someone else feels the same way!! Yeah!

And this-
People can be attracted to a wide variety of types even if they do have a preference. Doesn't mean a person can't find an array of types attractive when it comes to the opposite sex..

The thing is you can have a 'type' but you start spending time with someone that may not exactly fit it-- and attraction builds. I mean that's the process of falling in love vs just jumping into a relationship bccause someone 'looks' exactly how you like them to look. You can't factor out what happens when a man and woman share a space, work together or by circumstance get thrown together and nature, divinity-- LOVE has its way. We're the ones that messes it up very often- trying to get things to 'fit' sometimes or by not going with the flow. The process of that 'falling' is what I LOVE to write and read about.

Although I love secret baby or pregnancy storylines in my reads not a big fan of kids being the center of a storyline. Like being the nanny, babysitter, or anything where annoying ill behaved children crowd up my romance. If the kids are written cute it's okay, it's when they're bratty, that it takes me out of the book.

Savannah wrote: "OK, so I appreciate stories that showcase the whole love comes in all sizes/packages thing. I do. In fact, LOVE 'em.

But why on earth is it that so many IR novels are playing into the "she's fat a..."

As a plus size author (size 28)I have written about BBW women from a true BBW pov. In the real world that I live in when I was size 14 when it came to boys and later men I was still too fat.

Yes, men do still find big women attractive, however at the end of the day a big woman is like a person who are wealthy, or extremely beautiful, or famous...you sometimes find yourself in a relationship with a man for the wrong reasons. Such as someone with a "Fat" fetish. These men are with you because they think no one else will want you and therefore you don't have to worry about them cheating on you like their other thinner girlfriends have. These men will threaten to leave you if you drop a pound.

You also have the men who date you depending on your gratitude to take care of them and buy their attention and love.

So unfortunately when the entire world picks on you for how you look and a stranger think because you are fat they have the right to tell you to back away from the table or look at you at a buffet restaurant as if you shouldn't be there because they assume you are fat because you can eat the entire buffet alone, then yes you become a person who on the outside may say hoorah for the BBW!

However, you like all women for one thing or another have insecurities and one of them, like a woman who may get a man that is too handsome to look at and wonder how did I get this beautiful man? It's not because she don't think she deserve this man's love. It just amazes her that he does love her. I've seen beautiful women with insecurities and have a need to be convinced from time to time why that man is with her. Yet, no one questions her insecurity.

At the end of the day if you go to a convention for writers and readers you will see a lot of the fan base are overweight women and in this world unfortunately once you it a double digit pants size from size 10 and up some authors who aren't a plus size will write about a heroine that is fat and insecure too based on what they have heard, read, or seen friends larger than they are go through.

With all this said, this is why as a reader you have to take stock in the story as a whole. Was it a good book? Was the characters someone you could empathize with her insecurities and her gratitude at this man loving her, not because she was a fat woman but because most women have some questions at to the extent and reasoning behind their man's love. Mainly because they have been hurt by bad men in the past.

My character Mary in my Christmas series, used food for comfort. I read some horrible reviews in regards to Mary and her eating habits, even about her other physical ailment that she had no control over. I was sad because at the end of the day Mary is a fictional version of myself. She is the character I wrote that was the closest to the real me as I could get. Her insecurities are mine, her illness is mine, her body is mine and her desire to ease her broken heart in sugar babies and popcorn was mine. So when some readers got really ugly about the character all I could think is oh well then they wouldn't be able to accept me either.

Sometimes we have to be as accepting of a flawed leading lady right to love as we are of a Black woman's right to love and be loved by a White man.

My pet peeve. "Perfect" Leading ladies in a book.

I would never argue experience. I can only say that they differ. I haven't been less thana 14 since high school but while I amsure I have had a couple of blind dates where r
the fellow I question found me too large for his tastes, its not been something that I could say sticks out enough to have impacted me much. I basically chalk men upto two types whrnit comes to what they can find attractive; realists or stereotypical. LOL

I enjoy all kinds of heroines in books. Iwas simply sayingI think there isa problem when a bodytype is labeled as auto-undesirable or a very average size is relegated to the ranks of "now why would he be with HER". As a mother and a woman I find the focus on "thin" troubling. That's not saying I want obesity glorified....just the fact that we seem to be missing the middle ground in a lot of ways.

forgive the typos...me and this phone are duking it out!

Interesting topic about the weight/size of the AA female character in IR books. All people come in different sizes and shapes--that's reality. I have yet to read a book where the AA female is a size 10 or more and her "height" can handle her size/weight A lot of books I've read, tend to make the 10+ sized females come off as being obese---BUT---if she's a size 14 at 165-170 lbs and 5'9" or 5'10"--she's not fat. She just has some meat on her bones. That's all I have to say about the weight concern.

My pet peeve with IR is that all the females have long flowing/relaxed hair. Can we have a natural, short cut, twist, or locked AA female who attracts a handsome male of a different ethnicity? Hair does not make the character, I know, but I'd love a story where beauty is not defined by society. IE--Long haired, sized 2 beautiful model-esque female with light skin and light colored eyes. Gimme a 10+ lady with a hershey kissed complexion and a natural do and tell me how the story goes and ends with a male from a different ethnic group.

I'm just saying a little more variety with the AA females is appreciated.

Charlotte wrote: "Interesting topic about the weight/aize of the AA female character in IR books. All people come in different sizes and shapes--that's reality. I have yet to read a book where the AA female is a s..."

Amen on the hair thing! One of my biggest hopes that seems to be continually dashed when it comes to BW/WM romances was showcasing black women in our infinite and wonderful diversity. Skin color, hair texture, interests and the like. For the most part, it's cafe au lait, honey, cinnamon and mocha (which can be either light or dark) with silky flowing locks that can be swept into a ponytail. Yawn. It sometimes feels as if we're just rehashing the same problematic tropes about who we are that we deal with in real life. I often wonder if the issue is that we lack a suitable vocabulary to describe our varying skin tones that gets the point across to the reader. Unfortunately, food descriptions seem to have the most impact (I personally hate them and have made it a point to never use them in describing my black heroines).

I've read some self published IR's where the heroine did have natural textured hair or even braids. But having said that, nope it is definitely not the norm!

I think the skin color thing bugs me more than the weight thing. As a "chocolate" sista (lol food comparison again)that's a personal issue. Having grown up during the 80's (and the age of Appolonia as I refer to it sometimes), I remember when dark skin was so horribly bad it literally makes me ill to think on it now. We've come a LONG way, but it bothers me a lot to see AA writers SEEMINGLY overlook the varying shades of beauty.

I will never understand the "food coloring" that is necessary in romances. How hard is it to say "a pretty African-American woman" or "light skinned biracial woman" or "her soft, dark-brown skin" etc. and let the reader decide what hue or saturation they want to give the person in their own head?

This is why I tend to love it when I read non-romance writers who write non-white characters. They don't need food coloring. I remember reading one line in a mystery written by a white male author who described a black character as something like "she was fair-skinned a woman, my father would have called a her a "high yella gal." I have always remembered this line because I could immediately see her skin tone in my mind's eye.

Tina wrote: "I will never understand the "food coloring" that is necessary in romances. How hard is it to say "a pretty African-American woman" or "light skinned biracial woman" or "her soft, dark-brown skin" ..."

I think you kind of answered the question though. Romance. Food is a more...I don't know, delicious comparison? It appeals to the sensual more than a flat statement. ((shrug)) it doesn't bother me. The only thing that bugs me is the lack of variety in said food coloring LOL.

It wouldn't be too much of an issue except it is so overdone as to be almost comical to me at this point.

Sometimes I try to imagine some guy going up to a woman in a bar and calling her a "mocha colored minx." I can't imagine her thinking that is a panty-dropper moment. More like a 'are you serious?' moment. LOL.

I think TheFountainPenDiva hit it on the head with the assertion about the lack of a suitable vocabulary. I dread the moment somebody moves out of the drink/spices/candy category and moves into the dips & spreads tries to describe us as 'nutella' or 'peanut butter'

Tina wrote: "Sometimes I try to imagine some guy going up to a woman in a bar and calling her a "mocha colored minx." I can't imagine her thinking that is a panty-dropper moment. More like a 'are you serious?' moment. LOL. "

I know anytime some guy calls me brown sugar it'a an automatic shut down for me. I love the Stones but when a non-black guys says that it makes me think they want to use me as the their backdoor secret like the lyrics to that song. Maybe I'm overly sensitive about it but don't like feeling like a fantasy moment (in the bad way). Does that make sense?. Plus it's just so lame.

I find this whole discussion fascinating. I never care if the heroine is plus size or not. I do get tired of the 'food coloring' descriptions but I think maybe some people are struggling with what vocabulary to use- after all most terms used to describe Blackness for so long have been negative in some ways writers/readers are still trying to define themselves.

What I dislike are the perfect cardboard characters. She's beautiful & talented & fit &has a Ivy League degree & a great job & a nice car & makes lots of money &etc etc I recently read an IR with a heroine like that and it was a DNF b/c there was no real conflict. She was so perfect & did everything so perfectly & every date was wonderful, it was boring. I prefer stories with flawed people or people who have something to overcome.

Tina wrote: "I will never understand the "food coloring" that is necessary in romances. How hard is it to say "a pretty African-American woman" or "light skinned biracial woman" or "her soft, dark-brown skin" ..."

Exactly, just stating a character is black and letting the reader assign her skin tone is enough for me. Same with hair length,texture and eye color these descriptors are secondary to the plot for me unless her race is a main part of the book.

Paganalexandria wrote: "Tina wrote: "Sometimes I try to imagine some guy going up to a woman in a bar and calling her a "mocha colored minx." I can't imagine her thinking that is a panty-dropper moment. More like a 'are y..."

No, you are not being overly sensitive, it doesn't happen in real life for good reason which is why I don't give it too much importance when reading book.

What I don't understand is why do we have to describe our blackness in such detail as if we have to prove something

When I write, I don't go into such detail when describing skin colour. I don't see the point of trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to blackness. I just stick with brown skin or tan skin. No point in using overblown adjectives and nouns that don't really enhance anything.

To be fair though, I find
MOST phrasing in a lot of romantic fiction hard to imagine in reality. Much of the self published work I've read so far was particularly bad with the unrealistic phrasing in conversation. I've just gotten used to it.

Savannah wrote: "OK, so I appreciate stories that showcase the whole love comes in all sizes/packages thing. I do. In fact, LOVE 'em.

But why on earth is it that so many IR novels are playing into the "she's fat a..."

Amen!

Okay, how about mainstream romance where the heroine is described as having "skin the color of peaches and cream" or something to that effect? I think as writers of color we just need to sit down and develop a new vocabulary that describes the entire spectrum of dark skin. It's not as if a writer has to beat a reader over the head with it (LOL), but one good and fairly detailed description should do it. I've actually thought of falling back on the old Crayola crayons descriptions. They're fairly varied and accurate. Anything but food (though "wine-dark" is okay since a merlot has hints of red/burgundy). Sadly, I just think as a society we are uncomfortable with a heroine the color of Alek Wek or Grace Jones.

Nadine wrote: "No, you are not being overly sensitive, it doesn't happen in real life for good reason which is why I don't give it too much importance when reading book.

What I don't understand is why do we have to describe our blackness in such detail as if we have to prove something"

Nadine, how is this for being contrary: if the couple has started a relationship or at least an ongoing flirt-ship being reading some cute name based on skin color doesn't bother me at all. I mean my ex-boyfriend used to call me Starbucks (for hot Mocha). I found it cute, but he didn't walk up and start that mess or even in the beginning. It came from me one night of karaoke singing Lady Marmalade "mocha choca latte...". lol

If a writer sets up some believability almost anything is acceptable in the end. I also like skin tone to be mentioned to an extent because black people do come in so many spectrums it does help me to envision the character. I don't want to get beat over the head with it but a visual reference helps. I also want the same detail for the guy also.

I didn't get to read everyone's posts because I am pressed for time. Just wanted to comment real quick.

*I don't mind the food color descriptions because they are instantly recognizable. Like my sister, I don't like when an author just says dark or light skinned. What does that mean? It can vary with ethnicity. I think white authors tiptoe around the skin color issue and use dark-skinned to denote a black person, and we all know how big a variation in skin tone African Americans have. I'd rather have more specific descriptions. A Southern Italian could be dark-skinned to a Swedish person. I agree more vocabulary would be good. I am a Crayon fan, and I would be fine with authors using terms like sienna and umber to describe skin tones.
*I don't like perfect characters, either physically or personality-wise. I think everyone has a flaw and when I read a book, I like characters who are flawed. I love Plain Jane stories because I don't believe only beautiful women should fall in love. I believe everyone is beautiful in some way, and I think that falling in love is about seeing the beauty inside someone. While I don't like the heroine to be too insecure, I am fine with a heroine who has not felt beautiful and meets a guy who shows her she is gorgeous to him, even if the rest of the world thinks she's ordinary. And yes, I am fair. I like a hero who is flawed as well. In real life, I have not been that attractive to drop dead gorgeous men because of them I have met are very shallow and have lacking personalities. I like guys who have character and appeal that adds to their physical looks. Of course, I like a guy with a good body, but that's not everything, and you can be not good-looking and work out and have a good body.
*I agree with Savannah that they should stop making a big deal about men finding non-thin women attractive. Attraction comes in all shapes and sizes. I had a friend who was a thick, dark-skinned girl who was attracted to skinny, pale guys. You never know.

Sorry to post and run.

Tina wrote: "I will never understand the "food coloring" that is necessary in romances. How hard is it to say "a pretty African-American woman" or "light skinned biracial woman" or "her soft, dark-brown skin" ..."

I do not ave an issue with the food coloring because I believe it allows one to create a picture in their mind. I have a caramel complexion, my best friend is honey colored, my daughter is milk chocolate colored. My husband on the other hand is dark chocolate and he refers to the rest of us as the yellows.

I can't really comment on the "overweight" thing. While I have seen it a lot in book blurbs/summaries, I haven't really read that much of it.

However, the food comparison thing. I hate that so much. I mean "hate" is the wrong word. But I'm just so sick of seeing it. I mean maybe they do it because they think it will help the reader know what "shade" of brown the character. I'm not sure. But I'm just so sick of seeing "cocoa" this, "mocha" that, etc. Just say "dark brown", "brown skin", whatever. I'm just so sick of the food thing. That is a just a huge pet peeve for me. Like really. Seriously.

You know my pet peeve is when the author insinuates that the character tasted like chocolate. That bothers me... I mean like I mentioned before I am cacmel complected so am I supposed to taste like the best caramel square, one that melts in your mouth or remind you of your first trip to the fair eating a caramel apple??!?! (LOL) Come on now that is where AleK has to draw the line (SMH)

Lady AleK wrote: "You know my pet peeve is when the author insinuates that the character tasted like chocolate. That bothers me... I mean like I mentioned before I am cacmel complected so am I supposed to taste like..."

If I read a book like that there better be a bottle of Hershey chocolate sauce on the bedside table. Because skin can be salty, sweaty, sweet, bitter, depending on what you use on it, activity, ect...if it has a natural chocolate taste I would assume may be they mean "sweetness" which means the character maybe diabetic. I understand having creative license but there is a limitation. I never tasted a White person that taste like vanilla unless there was some massage oils involved. See I would have thrown that book aside with a roll of my eyes and not finished it. LOL

I wish I could remember the book then we could all get a laugh but because it was a bad one God only knows I try to remember the good ones only..I understand why authors take the time to explain color or skin complexetion beccause I honestly think all colors are beautiful and I love to see the contrast between different skin tones. This goes for all races because there is such a rainbow I believe all complextions should be celebrated

I was actually having a conversation at church with a guy (yes he was black) and he described us all by food terms as far as skin color, saying he appreciated how diverse the spectrum was in African-Americans. So I guess it does show that people do use food terms in real life. They are instantly identifiable.

Hiya, folks. I'm new and this will be my first time posting.

I have two huge pet peeves when reading an IR. It just drives me nuts when the heroine of a story is an emotional doormat, willing to accept any level of codependence or ridiculousness offered by some bumbling, dysfunctional hero; or worse, when the heroine is a CARICATURE based on an author's stereotypes. Jaid Black is a shining example of this.

I am not a man-hater. I have never used Ebonics. Not ever. My mother and her favorite wooden spoon made DAMN sure of that. I love my natural hair but it's merely an accessory - not the core of my existence. I am not a simpleton or hopeless. I don't need reassureance that my beautiful, round backside is Okay In The White World. It's fucking FABULOUS and jiggle-free, thank you very much. I don't need to be compared to a berry (the blacker or juicier variants). This non sequitur can be put to rest, already. I'm caramel-colored. I don't need an ode to my caramel-ness. There are more interesting things for a suitor to sing praises about. I favor chivalry and men who respect me and themselves. THIS is sexy(TM).

Authors, please take note. GA Aiken gets ALL MY MONEY. If you're unsure how to pull things off please call her or something. JR Ward, I am looking at you and my features are screwed up into fierce disapproval.

My life is much defined by the perceptions of me that other people form based on my biology. Much like every other woman in the world - no matter her color or nationality. But my heart and desires? Pretty much the same as those of my Caucasian counterparts. Truth.

But in all fairness we as a people know there are Stereotypical Black folks in our lives somewhere. Could be that cousin that cause you to cringe every time she and the rug rats come to visit. You might go to a party, movie theater, restaurant...ect and there she is with the Ebonic name, clothing, hair, mouth and attitude.

Sometimes you think the author is being stereotypical and some how mocking the race they are writing about, then you meet them in person at a book convention and realize, "Oh wow, she is the character in most of her books." Suddenly, it makes sense.

As an author in all honesty, I know pieces of me be it physical or quirks are mine. Especially the insecurities and vulnerabilities. People may notice certain themes that show up in certain writers works. There is a deep seated reason for it. I know even when I don't mean for it to mold my character when I start out my characters. Molestation in some form or the other seems to be a reoccurring theme in more than one of my novels.

I think it's because I was a molested child several times by numerous people during my youth and it rears its ugly head when a character triggers off that fear or emotion in me as I'm writing. It's not done intentionally, but because I'm honest in her pain a lot of readers can relate because of their own experiences or because they empathize. Then you have a few readers that are incapable of doing either and see it as a weakness of character that rubs them the wrong way.

I have found some readers to be the stereotypical ones in reading the book. For instance in Eternally I Do. My character is highly intelligent with several degrees and very good in her craft. However because she's a broad instead of a lady. She's a big woman that talk trash and cuss like a sailor when she was irritated instead of spouting highly intelligent euphemisms that they assume a doctor would say, then she was out of character and "ghetto". Well no ma'am. She is who she is. It's you the reader who have this certain assumption and expectation about her that you find disappointed that isn't there.

Well, isn't that the way it is in real life? You have these expectations about a writer because you admire their book, yet you may meet one in person or chat with her in a chat room and find her to be a real bit**?

This is why as a writer I have to stay true to my characters voices even if I don't like him or her. I'm channeling these people with minds and personalities of their own when I'm writing and if I try to mold it to what I know my readers will find more pleasing, I develop a writer's block.

I can only write to reach those who are looking to read what I write, the way I write it, in the voice I write it in, telling the story the characters want me to tell. I have to let those go that hate my stories for one reason or the other because the negative sticks to you like glue. The nastiness of some readers linger like bad food on the tongue, while the positive ones pick you back up again. Sometimes, you have to let that author go because you just don't like their writing style, but never ever expect a writer to change their writing style for you. Writing styles are imprinted that is why readers know right away when reading a book another author has been plagiarized.

Shiree wrote: "But in all fairness we as a people know there are Stereotypical Black folks in our lives somewhere. Could be that cousin that cause you to cringe every time she and the rug rats come to visit. Yo..."

Sounds like you've misrepresented my comments. Rather than try to respond to what sounds to me like a strawman arguement I'll just tell you that it sounds like you're open to writing about diverse characters. That's awesome!

It doesn't sound as though you're one of the authors I'm writing about, which is great.

Readers have opinions and preferences of their own, though, and that's fine too. Authors need to tell the stories that they want/need to tell - no arguement there. However, an author loses little by writing his or her stories in an inclusive way. If a story is completely dependent on a specific shade of brown, something fetishized or equally superficial, it's probably not something I want to read anyway.

I'm allowed my pursuit of sophisticated heroines that are fully realized, healthy adults. :)

I was speaking in general in regards to subject matter Athyr, *wink* that's why I didn't quote anything from your posting, because I didn't want you to think I was preaching on you. No you have a right to your opinion, for only you know what you like to read and I respect that.

I know for a fact not all authors are writing because they have a calling. They write because they want your money. You can tell these authors because they may draw you in one or two times with their books but it don't take long to realize they are cookie cutters with only the names and locations changing. Even some best seller authors I have read have become this way. I believe that is one advantage of being an Indie writer, the story is more important than the amount of novels you can put out. There are some great authors that you may wait 2 years or more in between books.

Happy reading!

Shiree wrote: "I was speaking in general in regards to subject matter Athyr, *wink* that's why I didn't quote anything from your posting, because I didn't want you to think I was preaching on you. No you have a ..."

Aaaaaaagghh! THIS!

+1000

You hear me! You really hear me! It's the money-grubbers I'm fussing at and about. Thanks for this post.

Personally, I've never been a fan of the cookie cutter books. I understand it- writing can be difficult with few financial rewards for most writers so they want to market themselves effectively to make a living. I, as a reader, am willing to seek the unique voices & wait for awhile for something I really like, but that's just me. Plenty of people like cookie cutter.

As a writer, I'm considering indie b/c even though I get good feedback from editors etc. apparently my style isn't considered marketable. I'm trying to have the confidence to stick to my voice but it can get discouraging.

On another note, sometimes I feel like I'm the only reader who doesn't really care for the stereotypical brawny Alpha male all that much. I also like a softer masculinity too. Maybe b/c in Asia that "beautiful man" ideal is more acceptable as a hero. In the west, it's always assumed they have to be gay.

mrsbookmark wrote: "Personally, I've never been a fan of the cookie cutter books. I understand it- writing can be difficult with few financial rewards for most writers so they want to market themselves effectively to ..."

No, you're not alone. I don't like Alpha males who treat the female like crap or men so jealous they take it out on the female by bullying her.

My men are Beta/Alpha. They are gentle and understanding with their woman, yet can be a real bastard when it comes to everyone else. I try to write characters that bring out the best in each other by being together. They help each other to evolve into more well rounded people by the end of the book, heal each other from what ever inner demons that has them standing still and not know it.

I do like books dealing with organized crime/mafia/etc, what grates on my nerve

1. the female who doesn't catch on that this man who is wining and dining her is a part of something fishy, especially with the boss title and the armed bodyguards or the fact that these ladies never google the man to see how he earned his money.

2. the female becomes boss herself when she was never a part of this type of world, all of a sudden she is ordering hits and handle guns like a pro.

3. the female is better than every other female in the story and all the men idolizes her. She acts as if they are all one big family and she is their therapist solving all their problems that they wouldn't be able to handle without her.

4. She was independent until she hooks up with the boss and he is always the boss, letting him run her life, telling her who she can be friends with, etc but as long as he is putting it down in the bedroom all is good.

5. why is the man never involve in the more shady part of the business, he is always trying to go legit or leaving the family.

Like most things, I think, ALL of this is personal preference. There is just absolutely no way to please every reader and I have peeves about white character descriptions as well. Someone mentioned the "peaches and cream" thing and that is a perfect example. "Alabaster", "porcelain" you name it-they have 'em too. I think my main irritation is simply the stereotype that seems to be saying being bigger is something readers need to be beaten over the bead with. Average size in America being a 14, I find it irritating that so many authors seem to be feeding into a myth that its something remarkable or out of the ordinary when a man finds someone not a songle digit size worth his time. To me, that's insulting to women in general and a big reason why so many suffer from confidence issues and end up settling for some idiot just because they feel grateful for the attention even though there is nothing wrong with them.

I applaud writers for finally including women of ALL sizes and skin tones- I just hate it when that becomes the focal point of the story to the detriment of a real plot or the development of the characters. I think descriptions are necessary- as a reader I enjoy being told a few details that allow me to "build" an image in my mind. I just don't need size addressed to the point of it being a focal point.

I am one of those incredibly picky readers who will wait for a book from an author who knows how to push all my happy buttons. That's why I've been sounding the alarm at how formulaic IR romance is starting to become and I really LOVE this genre and know that it can be better than a lot of the dreck that's out there, but both readers and authors have to be willing to take RISKS.

Granted, a couple of Italian/Russian mafia books are fine. When there's a slew of them, and most sugarcoat the fact that these guys are CRIMINALS and their behavior have consequences for a lot of innocent people, then I'm like Just. No. I'm good with the well-written anti-hero in romance. If he's a crook, then let him behave as one and let me decide as a reader if I want him to have a happy ending. And yes, DO NOT make the heroine some naive doormat who sees a shitload of Russian tattoos and doesn't connect the damn dots. Same with the billionaire heroes. Tiresome trope that. How about the heroine and the hero both being fabulously wealthy or maybe just the heroine? In short, I crave variety. I need that something different because I've been a reader all my life. I want the unapologetic big girl who gets her freak on, dressed to the nines and who struts her curves like she's all that. I want the dark-skinned, afro-wearing diva who can pawn all comers on Call of Duty, LOL. Again, give me the geeks, the freaks, the inconoclasts and make them fall madly in nerd love, lol.

Thank you all for the insight in what you're looking for. It does help in making decisions for future books and most of all makes me feel good about the direction I am going in the books I have written.

I am happy to say I already implement a lot of the being different in my books. I try to have detailed, mysterious or intricate stories that is more character driven than issue driven. For the most part it works and then for some my stories are too busy and too much going on, or my characters talk too much...blah...blah...I've heard it all and people don't mind being blunt and mean as hell about how they feel so let me do the same as a publish author that only write in the Interracial genre.

To the readers who have nothing but negative reviews and 1 or 2 star ratings. Those who said they couldn't finish it. I can only say go back to the cookie cutter romances where they meet, speak and fu** and you don't even know at the end of the book how they manage to fall in love when they never even talk all they did was screw. There are thousands of them. So many that I get pissed when I buy one and realize what I purchased because the blurb sounds so good, however I don't buy them now if the writers don't supply sample chapters. More than one..

In my books race is usually a secondary problem, depending on the time the story takes place. Usually it's more of an issue for everyone except the main characters, they usually have other reasons they may think they aren't good together, or it won't work.

I pride myself from day one starting with The Lord and the Scorpion of being a writer that writes outside the box. I'm proud that in the Interracial genre of books I am known for writing the first. However, you're right PenDiva people in this genre have become to accustom to the same ole' thing. I noticed in my book Eternally I Do she was a big girl who gets her freak on without apology. Some called her Ghetto. I mean what is that anyway?

In the Prince and the Panther she was dark-skinned and bald except for a single braid from the back of her head, she was also a dominant female with a dominant male as her leading man, so he had to fight her before he won the right to make love to her. That didn't go over well, some had a problem that she had a lot of masculine tendencies. They also didn't like the fact she had no hair.

There is no pleasing everybody, no truer statement. Am I a best seller? No. A lot of people still have yet to know who I am, but I can proudly say I am that unapologetic big girl who take RISKS in my books. If that mean I will never be as successful as I wish I could be in my chosen field, so be it.

I believe that you d soul mgs express yourself in your books as you see fit. Everyone will never be happy even if you sell your soul. I believe the price of your art is everyone will not like it but we should respect it and you as the artist. Continue to pursue your craft and stay true to yourself. I myself do not care for the cookie cutter and if that is what I want I pick it up, but when I want true art that is what I look for... a earl human like story with dialog, faults and a description of the characters psyche and outer appearance

I think if we're honest, we have to admit that the quality of the material we're getting goes right along with the experience of the writer in most ways. To avid readers who are accustomed to the likes of professional writers who have enjoyed success in the industry for many years, ofcourse- we're going to find holes in the logic, flow and overall entertainment value of the books. We're basically seeking out books that are a SUBset genre. And its one that, thus far, hasn't reached the mainstream publishing world to any degree that has made it well known enough to get the type of attention that will net a noticeable increase in quality of seasoned talent that we're really looking for. The best IR books I've read are always the ones from authors who aren't new to writing, even if they are new to writing an IR story. Not all, but I'm willing to bet a great deal. We're reading authors who, for the most part, are still honing their craft. Many of these are self published. They haven't been edited or subjected to the type of critique and constructive criticism in preparation for market that most of the "vanilla" books we read are. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying, it bears mentioning.