The Sword and Laser discussion

I see everywhere this novel being called an important precursor of cyberpunk, and while reading, I found it to possess that cyberpunk-ish quality so overwhelmingly, that I now wonder - why it is considered a precursor of cyberpunk rather than cyberpunk?

It has hi-tech, low-life, the protagonist is almost an anti-hero, not the goody-goody boy. It was a noir detective story. Accompanied by a radical break-down in the social order. At least somewhat radical.

But it was no set in near-future, neither was it Earth-bound. I'm not so sure about the post-Industrial dystopia part as well.

So, my question is, how is it more "pulp" than "cyberpunk"? What are the differences between the two, or where do we draw the line?

Certain aspects of it were so eerily common with classic cyberpunk that I had a hard time considering it as pulp and not cyberpunk.

This topic is not intended for bashing its pulp or precursor status - it is for my own clarification on why it is pulp and not cyberpunk and how and where these two sub-genres intersect - more specifically since I have my thesis to tackle on cyberpunk, for which I'm considering this work as an example of cyberpunk precursor and where to draw the line between cyberpunk work and cyberpunk-precursor work.

I don't know if the protagonists qualify exactly as "punk". They are the elite of the society:

Ben Reich's lastname already shows this intention (translate that to "rich" or to "empire").

The ESPers are mainly elite, as well.

There are some players on the edge of the society, bribery, an underworld. And this makes this novel a precursor to cyberpunk (and to New Wave as well), because this is one of the first times that not only scientists are being considered in scifi.

The Stars My Destination is probably much clearer as a progenitor of cyberpunk - with the cybernetically augmented protagonist Foyle, the gigantic corporations and the dark tone. But I think that the Demolished Man also qualifies, although it misses some central cyberpunk themes:

- the cyber element, i.e. the fusion of humans and machines
- cyberpunk "style", i.e. outfits, visuals
- technology impact on humans seen as a negative thing
- focus on the social underground

In summary, Demolished Man only got some aspects of cyberpunk and misses others. It cannot be cyberpunk itself but lead to the development of cyberpunk. It is a precursor.

Thanks! That's such a neat answer - I guess I was so taken in by the cyberpunk feel, I paid less attention to technical details.

Now The Stars My Destination is my next destination...

Thanks again.

Lit Bug wrote: "But it was no set in near-future, neither was it Earth-bound. I'm not so sure about the post-Industrial dystopia part as well."

The last hundred pages of Neuromancer take place on a space station, and none of Bruce Sterling's Schismatrix stories visit Earth for a moment, so that's hardly a disqualifier.

The setting may not be post-industrial, but it is definitely gritty and realistic, more in keeping with Raymond Chandler's Los Angeles than any contemporaneous SF settings, and there's a dystopian undertone coming from the idea that ordinary humanity will eventually be supplanted by the ESPers, at least some of whom are hostile to us mundane humans.

You can get a better idea of how this book influenced cyberpunk by looking at the works of John Brunner and Phillip K. Dick, who are the genre's most direct precursors and highly influenced by Bester.

Sean wrote: "Lit Bug wrote: "But it was no set in near-future, neither was it Earth-bound. I'm not so sure about the post-Industrial dystopia part as well."

The last hundred pages of Neuromancer take place on ..."

Thank you! I've just taken up PKD and will take up Brunner too - you are so right about Neuromancer (I found it terribly difficult the first time I read it) and its setting in space....

Could anyone please describe pulp? I have only a vague idea, but not something concrete...

Pulp Magazines or "pulps" were a popular format for magazines in the first half of the twentieth century. They were called pulps because of the low, cheap quality of paper they used made from wood pulp.
Many different genres (mystery, romance, western and of course science fiction) had their own pulps. The emphasis was usually on exciting, fast paced adventure stories but of course the quality of the writing varied widely. At the time it was also quite common for a science fiction novel to be first serialized in the pulps and I imagine that could affect writing style as well.
Most of the "classic" science fiction authors started in the pulps and usually got paid around a penny a word. Robert Heinlein was (I think) the first to graduate to the "slicks" and get significantly more.

Thank you! You made it so precisely clear... :)

The obvious thing would be to consult wikipedia as well :)

Yes, I did that as well and am clear now :)

Sometimes people explain it better and in less words than dear Wiki.