SA Book & Challenge Lovers discussion

The discussion thread for our November - December BoM. Please avoid spoilers, or use the spoiler tag to hide them: < spoiler> spoiler>

I've read Oryx and Crake twice and it's one of my favourite books, with a combination of literary and science fiction that I really love.

The first time I read Atwood I almost dismissed her completely. I had to read Surfacing for a university course, and I found it really weird, boring and obscure. When my dissertation supervisor mentioned Atwood a year later, I said how much I'd hated Surfacing, but she totally dismissed it and told me to read Atwood's sci fi, because it was way more interesting than her other fiction. And it really is. I went on to read and enjoy some of Atwood's other novels, but The Handmaid's Tale and Oryx and Crake were the best.

Annoyingly though, Atwood seems to be in the camp that looks down on science fiction, because she refuses to call her sf novels that, insisting that it's "speculative fiction". Which, in my opinion, is just a marketing tactic for snobs who think that science fiction can't be literary fiction or good quality fiction. Anyone who knows anything about sci fi can see that this book falls squarely into that genre. And it's an excellent piece of sf too.

Can't wait!

One of the reasons Atwood claims that this isn't science fiction is that she doesn't make up any of the science. And you do in fact get glow-in-the-dark rabbits:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013...

The other genetic modifications aren't quite so cute and fluffy, but we can talk about that later...

That is weird and cool at the same time!

I'll be starting this week, if anyone wants to do a read along. I'm doing another read-along at the same time, so I'm going to spread it across the whole week, and maybe into the next as well.

That sounds good to me! I need my reads spread out a bit :)

I made an easy schedule for myself - about 50 pages per day, and I'll simply stop at whichever chapter is closest to the 50-page mark, which will be simple as the chapters are quite short. I started today and it goes as follows:

Pages 1-51; Mango - Downpour
Pages 55-100; Rakunk - Brainfrizz
Pages 101-147; HottTotts - Birdcall
Pages 148-199; Roses - Blue
Pages 203- 250; SoYummie - Hypothetical
Pages 251-300; Extinctathon - Garage
Pages 301- 349; Gripless - BlyssPluss
Pages 350 - end (433); MaddAddam - Footprint

I realise this is a VERY relaxed schedule, but of course you're free to read ahead if you want. I've read this already so we can chat in the spoiler thread.

50ish pages is perfect!

A few questions to start you off; answer any or all of them:

Snowman: do you like him, sympathise with him? Or are you annoyed by his hallucinations, reminiscing and musing and wish he'd focus on the practical issues of survival?

The novel is set across two futures - a dystopia characterised by the destruction and modification of nature, as well as increasing social divisions, and a post-apocalyptic world reverting to Eden, complete with a race of innocent post-humans. Any thoughts on world-building? Do you find the dystopia realistic? Is the post-apocalyptic world in any way hopeful or just terrifying?

How do you feel about Jimmy's relationship with his parents? I'm guessing you feel sorry for him, but do you think his mother or father deserve our sympathy too?

Pigoons - what do you think? Would you be ok with a transplant from one? What about eating them?

Snowman keeps referring to Crake, and we've picked up some basics - he designed the Crakers, he was a childhood friend of Jimmy's, but Snowman blames him for his current situation. Do you have any other impressions of Crake so far? Are you keen to meet him?

In only 50 pages Atwood has given us a ton of information - intriguing or overwhelming?

Snowman: do you like him, sympathise with him? Or are you annoyed by his hallucinations, reminiscing and musing and wish he'd focus on the practical issues of survival?
Mostly sympathetic, a teeny bit annoyed. He'd be better off if he were more practical, but his behaviour makes a lot of sense to me. Bored and alone, it would be easy retreat into your memories and of course both the hallucinations and the reminiscing give us insight into the backstory and Snowman's character.

The novel is set across two futures - a dystopia characterised by the destruction and modification of nature, as well as increasing social divisions, and a post-apocalyptic world reverting to Eden, complete with a race of innocent post-humans. Any thoughts on world-building? Do you find the dystopia realistic? Is the post-apocalyptic world in any way hopeful or just terrifying?
I find the dystopia very scary because I can easily imagine that kind of simultaneous development and degradation happening to us. Some things are pure horror, like the idea of a "for harvest child... in some illegal baby orchard" in case you need an organ donor.

We learn a bit more about Snowman's world, and I like the way Atwood makes relatively minor issues seriously problematic or incredibly unpleasant: bug bites, the heat, the humidity, sweating, ants, loneliness. Put all those things into a contemporary context and it's not nearly as much of a problem. It's a bit different from the post-apocalyptic worlds you normally see - less dramatic, no monsters, no nuclear fallout, just a sad, lonely sunburnt man in a new Garden of Eden.

How do you feel about Jimmy's relationship with his parents? I'm guessing you feel sorry for him, but do you think his mother or father deserve our sympathy too?
This is the kind of thing that really allows me to appreciate Atwood's amazing writing - all the little details of Jimmy's interactions with his parents. Like when he asks his mother why she doens't work at OrganInc anymore:
"Because I wanted to stay home with you," she said, looking over the top of Jimmy's head and puffing on her cigarette.
That says so much about how miserable she is, and the fact that Jimmy notices such nuances of her behaviour is so sad in itself.

But I feel sorry for her. Ramona mentions pills, so I'm guessing this is a serious psychological problem she has. The crying fits that Jimmy mentions suggest the same. She's neglecting Jimmy, but she's clearly deeply unhappy as well.

As for his father... I can understand that he must be tired and frustrated, but at the same time he doens't seem to be trying as hard as he should for his wife and son.

Pigoons - what do you think? Would you be ok with a transplant from one? What about eating them?
They're... a bit disturbing. Mostly because I worry about the kind of life an animal designed to grow 6 respawning kidneys must live. Do they suffer? Or are their lives better than pigs raised for meat?
I wouldn't mind a transplant from one, especially since I know that, if I needed one, I wouldn't be fussy. Eating them? Well, I've heard that pigs are very similar to us genetically, so would it be that different to eating bacon now?

Snowman keeps referring to Crake, and we've picked up some basics - he designed the Crakers, he was a childhood friend of Jimmy's, but Snowman blames him for his current situation. Do you have any other impressions of Crake so far? Are you keen to meet him?
Not going to give my thoughts on Crake for now, because I already know too much about him.

In only 50 pages Atwood has given us a ton of information - intriguing or overwhelming?
Well, since I'm re-reading this, and since I'm only reading 50 pages a day (and they aren't long pages) I'm loving the detail Atwood has put into this, and I'm reminded why she's one of my favourite authors. Because I already know the book, I'm less focused on trying to understand what's going on, and I can take my time and admire the scenery, so to speak. Although 'scenery' is probably too happy a word for Snowman's emaciated body, Jimmy's unhappy childhood, animals being being because of viral infection, etc., etc.

Lauren wrote: "Snowman: do you like him, sympathise with him? Or are you annoyed by his hallucinations, reminiscing and musing and wish he'd focus on the practical issues of survival?"

Too early to tell, but I like hearing about his past.

Lauren wrote: "The novel is set across two futures - a dystopia characterised by the destruction and modification of nature, as well as increasing social divisions, and a post-apocalyptic world reverting to Eden, complete with a race of innocent post-humans. Any thoughts on world-building? Do you find the dystopia realistic? Is the post-apocalyptic world in any way hopeful or just terrifying?

How do you feel about Jimmy's relationship with his parents? I'm guessing you feel sorry for him, but do you think his mother or father deserve our sympathy too?"

Not sure yet, need more info on these subjects.

Lauren wrote: "Pigoons - what do you think? Would you be ok with a transplant from one? What about eating them?"

I would be ok with a transplant from them if I had no choice, but no I would not eat one!

Pigoons - what do you think? Would you be ok with a transplant from one? What about eating them?

No I will probably not feel comfortable with a transplant and I will not eat them

Snowman keeps referring to Crake, and we've picked up some basics - he designed the Crakers, he was a childhood friend of Jimmy's, but Snowman blames him for his current situation. Do you have any other impressions of Crake so far? Are you keen to meet him?

Yes I definitely want to learn more about this Crake character

Enjoying it so far. Will get to the questions, but really intrigued by the whole world. Can't wait to find out how the world got to this point.

Louise wrote: "Can't wait to find out how the world got to this point."

This was quite a big deal to me when I read the book. And there's the question: Is it better? But will save that for the spoiler thread.

Rakunk - Brainfrizz

One more question, before I start posting in the spoiler thread:

We meet Crake in a chapter devoted to him. What do you think of him? About how he might bring about the world Snowman is living in?

The novel is set across two futures - a dystopia characterised by the destruction and modification of nature, as well as increasing social divisions, and a post-apocalyptic world reverting to Eden, complete with a race of innocent post-humans. Any thoughts on world-building? Do you find the dystopia realistic? Is the post-apocalyptic world in any way hopeful or just terrifying?
The worldbuilding for the dystopia gets a lot scarier from Rakunk to Brainfrizz. Creepy gene-spliced creatures made by people in labs who casually say it makes them feel like god, but they've had to destroy some of their experiments. Faulty biotech tested on humans with horrible results. Jimmy's mother makes some good points about how corporations like OrganInc and NooSkins are moral cesspools, where these technologies will only be available to the rich (and the poor are the ones they get tested on, no doubt).

But the most repulsive chapter for me was definitely Brainfrizz - the sick games Crake and Jimmy play, the appalling things they watch online and on TV. *shudder*. It feels too realistic as well.

The games are crazy in their own way too - games for geniuses and game strategists. They also say a lot about the world Crake and Jimmy live in. Blood and Roses is about human achievement warring with humanity's capacity for cruelty and destruction. And now human achievements are causing so much cruelty and destruction, especially in ecological terms. Extinctathon is just depressing - an entire game based on the creatures that have disappeared over the last 100 years? The rhino is one of them. I weep for humanity.


We meet Crake in a chapter devoted to him. What do you think of him? About how he might bring about the world Snowman is living in?
Crake creeps me out. It's his seriousness, which isn't a bad thing in itself, but it's ominous in Crake, especially since we know he must have had something to do with the apocalypse. There's a sense that he's quietly studying everyone. It's also Crake who introduces Jimmy to the wide range of fucking disgusting media we come across in Brainfrizz.

By the way, are there any geneticists, microbiologists or related professionals reading this? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the science and its ethics in this book, especially since Atwood claims it's all real, to an extent.

Lauren wrote: "By the way, are there any geneticists, microbiologists or related professionals reading this? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the science and its ethics in this book, especially since Atwood clai..."

Now I need to read this. Have you read any Michael Crichton? How does this compare to that? I love his stuff...

Varla Fiona wrote: "Now I need to read this. Have you read any Michael Crichton? How does this compare to that? I love his stuff... "

Please do! I've never read Michael Crichton, and I've only seen the first Jurrassic Park movie, but if that's any representation of his work then I'd say the only thing they have in common is the bit about fiddling with genes :) I took a quick look at the first part of his Wikipedia bio, and he seems to focus a lot on action. Atwood is more of a literary author and she's an environmental activist, so she focuses more on character, the ethics of biotechnology, humanity's impact on the world, and so on. The sf aspects are pretty shocking (actually a lot of stuff is shocking), but I wouldn't call it a thriller.

I think Lu has read Crichton so she can give you better advice, but I don't think you should read this expecting the same sort of thing. If you're still intrigued though I'd love for you to join in :)

Great. I know what Jon will recommend then.

It is the whole bringing real science into fiction thing that I love. James Rollins does it too.

Crichton would take a normally controversial topic, research it and go What if ... And write a story about that if.

starting this today

Just finished this! I started reading again after my exam and could NOT stop! Loved it! Will make my way to the spoiler thread :)

Finished until the end of Brainfrizz.

Yeah, Crake would totally weird me out if I met him in real life. I don't trust him at all.

I would definitely take an organ from a pigoon, but then I would be happy taking an organ from anything as long as it had been proven viable. I would probably even go with the trial if it was a case of try this or die.

I would eat them, but I am pretty open to trying most things. I wasn't even freaked out by the whole horse meat saga recently. As long as out is not an actual human (of course then we get to the issue of eating humans of it is the only food source, which I would probably do as a last resort) I will try anything. It is just meat.

Oh, Gotta run. Will comment more later.

Snowman does irritate me a bit as I would find the survival stuff interesting but his reminiscing gives background that helps the story make sense.

I agree the world they were in was scary. I want to know what was so bad outside those communities if they had to be protected yet inside they were exposed to stuff which we consider terrible. But the world Snowman is in seems to be worse because he is all alone.

Oh the science, I am a zoologist so not sure exactly about the fields they talk about but it does not seem to far fetched to me based on the little I know. Of we haven't already got to this point in some secret labs I'm sure we are not too far away. I say secret because I think there are ethical issues to some of it. I do often find that scientists involved in work can have a different perspective on the ethics of their work than the general public. I'm not sure who would be right in that case, the scientist who has a clearer and more detailed understanding of what is being done or someone with a less biased outside perspective.

Varla Fiona wrote: "I agree the world they were in was scary. I want to know what was so bad outside those communities if they had to be protected yet inside they were exposed to stuff which we consider terrible. But the world Snowman is in seems to be worse because he is all alone. "

I think the main problem with the pleeblands is that there are too many diseases going around. Also, it's about the wealthy and privileged keeping themselves separate from the masses.

it does not seem to far fetched to me based on the little I know. Of we haven't already got to this point in some secret labs I'm sure we are not too far away.
Atwood has a lot of scientists in her family, I think, and claims she hasn't written about anything that isn't a reality yet, although I'm not quite sure how far she's taken it. I doubt, for example, that scientists have made a spider/goat splice, but the technology of splicing species together is real. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chickie Nobs thing was real, although it's so disgusting.

Just started this recently - am not too sure what I think of it yet.

It is a bit to get used to in the beginning, but it draws you in after a while!

Have managed to get to 50% of the book and although not a book I am absolutely enamoured with, I am intrigued enough to want to finish it and see what happens.

Some answers to the questions:

Snowman: do you like him, sympathise with him? Or are you annoyed by his hallucinations, reminiscing and musing and wish he'd focus on the practical issues of survival?

Generally he is ok. He seems to be trying to survive in his own way, I do not feel sorry for him. The musings and flashbacks help a bit in understanding why he is where he is

The novel is set across two futures - a dystopia characterised by the destruction and modification of nature, as well as increasing social divisions, and a post-apocalyptic world reverting to Eden, complete with a race of innocent post-humans. Any thoughts on world-building? Do you find the dystopia realistic? Is the post-apocalyptic world in any way hopeful or just terrifying?

I find Atwood's word building good, but i definately do not want to live in her world. The book does put across what I feel can actually happen with all the current experimentation going on with GMO and animals. It is almost too scary to be true but I think we might be heading that way...

How do you feel about Jimmy's relationship with his parents? I'm guessing you feel sorry for him, but do you think his mother or father deserve our sympathy too?

I don't really feel sorry for him. I think that this might be a representation of what is happening with children today - parents working longer hours and rarely having actual quality time with their kids. As our lives get more chaotic so this is going to get worse. His parents are products of the environment they are working in and the decisions which they have made

Pigoons - what do you think? Would you be ok with a transplant from one? What about eating them?

I don't like the thought of the pigoons - I wouldn;t want to eat one by choice and the transplants are a bit weird. I can understand why they would create such an animal but unless it was an absolute medical necessity, I wouldn't go for it

Snowman keeps referring to Crake, and we've picked up some basics - he designed the Crakers, he was a childhood friend of Jimmy's, but Snowman blames him for his current situation. Do you have any other impressions of Crake so far? Are you keen to meet him?

I think Crake was a bit deprived and this comes across in his way of thinking. He was a good friend to Snowman in the beginning, but it was also more of what could Crake get out than what he could do

So glad you are enjoying it Jennifer!

Jennifer wrote: "I don't really feel sorry for him. I think that this might be a representation of what is happening with children today - parents working longer hours and rarely having actual quality time with their kids."
Jimmy's mom becomes a stay-at-home mother though, which is why they fire Jimmy's beloved nanny. She has plenty of time for him, but she's too depressed to make anything of it. His father seems to be too busy working, but mostly he just seems kind of uncaring. I feel sorry for Jimmy because being neglected isn't his fault, and has nothing to do with the choices he makes.

I forgot about that bit :-).

I have now finished the book. It took a while to read and get into but overall it was an enjoyable and interesting read. Definitely a case of what can happen when people try to play God. I did not expect the part of Jimmy and Crake st the end. The whole relationship between the three of them seemed weird and Oryx I felt was very detached about what had happened to her and what she was doing. She did seem to show regret once the outbreak started.

I am not sure if I will read the second book, but there are enough unanswered questions that I just might