Language & Grammar discussion

Yes, as in jazz "blues". A "blue note" is a reference to a musical "third" note that can emote a sad pitch. I understand it is low and has a longer interval. I have no musical training, so correct me if I erred.

I have no musical training either. Five years of piano lessons under duress don't count (though my piano teacher did -- beats or something).

Ha Ha I have a few instruments I hope to get out and learn someday. I can play a C D pretty well though.

I always thought true blue referred to one of the establishment, as in having blue blood. Off to google........

True blue
Meaning
Loyal and unwavering in one's opinions or support for a cause.

Origin
'True blue' is supposed to derive from the blue cloth that was made at Coventry, England in the late middle ages. The town's dyers had a reputation for producing material that didn't fade with washing, i.e. it remained 'fast' or 'true'. The phrase 'as true as Coventry blue' originated then and is still used (in Coventry at least). The town's standing was recorded in 1670 by John Ray in the first edition of A Compleat Collection of English Proverbs:

"Coventry had formerly the reputation for dying of blues; insomuch that true blue became a Proverb to signifie one that was always the same and like himself."

There are other theories as to the origin of 'true blue'; for example, the representation in paintings of the Virgin Mary in blue clothing, the purity of lineage of the Spanish nobility (see also blue blood), or the blue aprons worn by butchers. These derivations are unlikely as they aren't supported by documentary evidence that link them to 'true blue'. The Coventry story also has the added credence of closely matching the 'steadfast, unwavering' meaning of the phrase.

The change from the literal 'fast' coloured cloth to the allusory 'steadfast' loyal supporters came around the time that Ray was writing his book of proverbs. The Covenanters were a group of 17th century Scottish Presbyterians who swore to uphold the National Covenant and oppose the rule of James IV of Scotland. They wore blue as their badge and those who unequivocally supported the cause were called 'true blue'. Samuel Butler referred to this denomination in the satirical poem Hudibras, 1663:

For his Religion it was Fit
To match his learning and wit;
'Twas Presbyterian true blue

The Covenanters are no longer politically active, although the name survives as the nickname of the Reformed Presbyterian Church. Conservative politics has also maintained an association with the phrase and blue was adopted as the colour of the Tory Party in England (later called the Conservative Party). Staunch Conservative supporters, those whom Margaret Thatcher would have called 'one of us', are known as 'true blue' Tories.

Interesting stuff, Debs. And I grew up near Coventry, too. Coventry, Connecticut, that is....

Love the etymology of "true blue" but then, I'm a "dyed in the wool" grammar fanatic...

I recently re-watched episode 3 of "The Newsroom" which starts out with Richards Clark's apology "... it is finally a forum where I can apologize to the victims of 9/11; to them that are here in the room, to those that are watching on television..."

My grammar alarm went off with a "these, them, those" alert at the above phrase and the grammar bothered me the first time around as well. It seemed like both phrases should have used "those" rather than "them" but surprisingly the alarm didn't sound until I realized that there wasn't parallel construction.

Can someone who is actually familiar with the rules tell me what the rules are for deciding which term to use?

I would write "to those who are here in the room, to those who are watching on television."

I know the rule isn't hard and fast, but I like to refer to people with "who" and not "that."

I always thought 'that' was used for inanimate objects. "The couch that was in the room". "The boy who was in the room".

Oops! "." (Just for NE :-))

Who is that? Is that him? Where is that guy? Whose room is it? ThIs is whose room it is? She is that one over there. I've lost that child again! Whatz his name. Hu's on first.

Doug, that knows a thing or two about baseball, has Hu on first and Hume (but not David) on third. However is at the bat. It's neither or nor on second (I can't see that far).

Play ball!

I think that is a fowl bawl.

Boo hoo cluck

I am not sure about this sentence and would be grateful for help...

"The book starts off in Uganda in 1958, with the story of young Stanley and Zachye Katura - brothers living a life of cattle herders in the Bahima tribe."

Is "a life" correct, or should it be "the life"?

No expert, but I would think "the lives" plural - 1 brother , 'the life'; 2 brothers, 'the lives'. It still seems a little clumsy to me but Ruth is our wordsmith and will know better than me....too tired!

Thank you so much Debbie! Eeeek, two mistakes rather than one...

Regrettably I think the proper sentence is quite clumsy, so I shall just drop the cattle herding bit.

Thank you so much for your help.

I think that both are correct but have slightly different connotations, to me, "the life" suggests a known stereotypical set of assumptions, while "a life" doesn't suggest the same set of connotations. But connotations vary from reader to reader.

However... out of context neither seems to be necessary.

In 1958, young Ugandan brothers Stanley and Zachye Katura, were cattle herders in the Bahima tribe.

Caroline, Stephan's suggest has a better flow. Are you writing a book ?

I think either is fine, too, though I prefer "the." And in Stephen's rewrite, I would ditch the comma after Katura.

Agree with Stephan and NE.

Stephen wrote: "I think that both are correct but have slightly different connotations, to me, "the life" suggests a known stereotypical set of assumptions, while "a life" doesn't suggest the same set of connotati..."

Thank you very much Stephen! I see what you mean about the different connotations implied, and in this instance I think "a life" would be better.

The sentence you give is elegant, but regrettably I want to start it with the words "The book starts off in Uganda in 1958"

Carol, Newengland and Ruth - thank you so much for your input :)

Carol - no I am not writing a book, I would never be capable of that. This is just a sentence from a little review I have done here at GR.

I know very little about grammar, but it really bugs me when something sounds wrong, even for something as humble as that. It's fantastic to be able to come here and get some feedback. I really appreciate it!

I am horrible at grammar and spelling , these kind people can attest to that. I hate writing reviews of any length, so you are doing better than me, or is it I?

Carol wrote: "I am horrible at grammar and spelling , these kind people can attest to that. I hate writing reviews of any length, so you are doing better than me, or is it I?"

Ha ha, I doubt it! I have found out that I love doing reviews though, because it stops books just slipping out of my head. (I have the memory of a gnat.) It also makes me think about books in different ways - and that has been most rewarding :)

:-)

Caroline wrote: "Carol wrote: "...I love doing reviews though, because it stops books just slipping out of my head. It also makes me think about books in different ways - and that has been most rewarding ..."

That's precisely why I started doing book reviews as well. I like that it forces you to think through your initial impressions and it does help keep the book stuck in your mind.

Stephen wrote: "That's precisely why I started doing book reviews as well. I like that it forces you to think through your initial impressions and it does help keep the book stuck in your mind."

Yup. Absolutely.

what's the difference between WHO and WHOM

The short answer is that WHO is for use as a subject of clause while WHOM is for use as an object of a clause.

Who gives a darn?
Who is it?
Who will win?

These should be given to whom?
To whom do I make out the check?
Never send to ask for whom the bell tolls...

I’m looking for a word.

It’s (I believe) a literary term that refers to a word used incorrectly in a sentence by assigning it a different meaning. The word used in the sentence, and the word that was intended, are often phonetically similar.

Examples:
“I’m surprised you notice that; you’re a very absorbent person.” (Absorbent is used incorrectly but it’s clear that the intended word was observant)

“Let’s gouge ourselves on ice cream.” (Gouge is used incorrectly but it’s clear that the intended word was gorge.)

What's the word I'm looking for?

malapropism: the usually unintentionally humorous misuse or distortion of a word or phrase; especially the use of a word sounding somewhat like the one intended but ludicrously wrong in the context
(Merriam-Webster)

Thanks, BP, for coming up with malapropism so quickly!

From Bryan Garner's always enlightening Garner's Modern American Usage:

Edward Sapir, the philosopher of language, prophesied that "within a couple of hundred years from to-day not even the most learned jurist will be saying 'Whom did you see?' By that time the whom will be as delightfully archaic as the Elizabethan his for its. No logical or historical argument will avail to save this hapless whom." Language 156-57 (1921; repr. 1949). A safer bet might be that no one will be spelling to-day with a hyphen. In any event, writers in the 21st century ought to understand how the words who and whom are correctly used.

From there, Garner goes on with about two full pages of rules and examples and common errors. Ask me if I plan to summarize that information. Go ahead, ask me! Then ask for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for dreamers like thee!

Newengland wrote: "Thanks, BP, for coming up with malapropism so quickly!"

No problem! I couldn't resist and I'm glad I wasn't intruding. :)

Plus it made me realize that the word comes from a character (as per Merriam-Webster: "Mrs. Malaprop, character noted for her misuse of words in R. B. Sheridan's comedy The Rivals (1775)"). I wonder if there are other literary terms derived from character names. Umm... Gargantuan is one... Maybe there are others?

ETA: although Gargantuan is not a literary term but you know what I mean!

Here are a few eponymous words, though there have to be many, many more lying around somewhere!

http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics...

I'm not generally one of those Yahoos that comments before reading all the info in the associated links but BP did ask about other terms that have come from character names et. al. While Yahoos (crude uncivilized creatures) were not individuals they were a race created by Jonathon Swift and racist terms have cause problems of Brobdingnagian proportions...

Of course the Pandarus in me wants to pander to BP's request and mention Casanova as well. But then perhaps I'm just being Pollyanna-ish...

I'm editing a book and I have two questions. First, there's a sentence, similar to the one below, where I'm not positive about the punctuation. Which is right?

#1. "It wasn't something I understood, being that I wasn't a big reader."

#2. "It wasn't something I understood being that I wasn't a big reader."


Second, if you have a subordinate clause after an "and" that could also possibly have a comma in front of it, where do you put the commas?

#3. "...his right to be an idiot, and, although I didn't approve, he was allowed to be an idiot if he wanted."

#4. "...his right to be an idiot, and although I didn't approve, he was allowed to be an idiot if he wanted."

#5. "...his right to be an idiot and, although I didn't approve, he was allowed to be an idiot if he wanted."

I think I know which is right but instead of guessing, I thought I'd check with you masters first.

Thank you in advance!

I vote for #1 and #4

I vote for 1 and 4 as well. Also, I don't think there should ever be a comma after and.

Hmmm. Kelly, can I add #6? What is the "and" for?

You could remove it and begin another sentence with "Although" so there is only one inserted phrase.

Since you are just editing I don't know what your parameters are but that is what I would do with a run on sentence with several redundancies too.

Great, thanks folks.

I had the first one right. :)

There are a couple of places like this second question. It just seems weird to me that the and goes inside the second unneeded clause. That's why I had the question. You can remove the clause after "and" and it still works. However, if you remove the clause as well as the and, the sentence doesn't make sense. I guess you could put a colon instead of and in that scenario. I could shorten the sentences but then they're too short and the text sounds stilted. I only left out a few words.

Thanks so much for your help!

Kelly,

Glad to be of any help, even though I did found my expert badge on the street.

Here it's like guilty until proven innocent (the great American way): you're an expert until proven otherwise.

you're Right. :)

Ok, folks, I'm embarrassed to say I have another question. In my weak defense, I've been an editor and a technical writer for decades and have written many papers and a Master's thesis, but this is my first paid job editing fiction. It is more different than I thought it would be and I'm rusty on non-technical stuff anyway.

So in this manuscript, characters are being interrupted constantly because of the intensity of the situations. Sometimes the author interrupts a person speaking with a complete sentence or two. I have found contradictory information on the web and and hoping you all can help.

Karen spoke next. "Have you had any luck--" Next to me, Bon was making a slashing motion across his neck trying to get her to stop. "--with your task, Chris?" Karen finished hesitantly.

This is how it is now. My question was just that I wondered if the W from "wih your task" should be capitalized. I wouldn't think so but there is a period between the two pieces of dialog.

So I went to look it up and on a copy editors site I found something that told me the punctuation was wrong. It said I should write it like this:

Karen spoke next. "Have you had any luck"--Next to me, Bon was making a slashing motion across his neck trying to get her to stop--"with your task, Chris?" Karen finished hesitantly.

Since she actually was interrupted, just action. Too place while she was speaking that makes sense sort of, and I would still think the W shouldn't be capitalized.

This isn't the only place this happens in the book and sometimes the person is actually interrupted, like:

"I have so much to do and I just dont have time to eat before--" Karen lookdown at her menu which Bob had put in front of her. He had already placed his order and didn't need it. "--I prepare for battle."

Ok, that is a terrible example because I would just make the two pieces of dialog into separate pieces, or have the first one interrupted and the second one a full thought, but I think you get what I'm saying.

So thanks again in advance again. I know I'm going to have another question as this is a long book with convoluted writing, so I hope that I'm not being irritating. I am looking everything up in the web to be sure, even many of those rules I'm sure I already know just to be sure since I'm getting paid, but sometimes I can't find the answer. If I've looked more than twenty minutes, or even half an hour, I figure it's time to call on those who are (hopefully) willing to look at my specific issue. So I am really thankful. If I were making more than a pittance I'd pay you.

Right now I think I'm going to get a dollar a page for the novel since I'm being so careful to look things up and back check when I am not sure I did the right thing before. I've taken notes so I don't have to look up infrequent issues again and I've refreshed my memory, so hopefully next time it will take much less time.

So thank you again.

I haven't seen anything like this. As a reader, I find interruptions like you cite superfluous and annoying. Meaning: My solution would be to eliminate the interruption entirely.

That said, one solution could be the use of paragraphing:

Karen spoke next. "Have you had any luck--"

Next to me, Bon was making a slashing motion across his neck, trying to get her to stop.

"--with your task, Chris?" Karen finished hesitantly.

Another solution is keeping the dialogue whole:

Karen spoke next. "Have you had any luck with your task, Chris?" She finished hesitantly as, mid-speech, Bon had begun a slashing motion across his neck.

"... trying to get her to stop" is also superfluous, given that he is giving the universal motion for just that.

I think NE's first answer is the best, if the author truly wants to write in that kind of form.

Kelly,

With the example, my weak memory won't hold out from the first dialogue through three phrases to the remainder dialogue so I can't put them together. I am set to wandering in other worlds before I get to there. The sentence needs bisected.

It reminds me a little of a variation of play writing where the dialog is interrupted on the page with what the actor is supposed to be doing. For instance, there is a piece of dialog and the next line will describe the action then the dialog continues on another line. When that actor has finished there is a line (paragraph) space and the next actors part/dialog begins.

Nothing wrong with wanting to merge the auditory and visual in the same sentence for impact. Personally, in my "street-expert" opinion, I like simpler structure such as:

"I hate you", she said, swinging the ax, "like I hate chopping wood"! (Hmmm, just thinking. Is it the author's intent not to use "he said/she said" elsewhere in the book?)

If writing in first person, are any phrases inserted in the third?

Don't be embarrassed; I'm not, obviously.

Any thought about adding a couple of words and moving commas to fore and aft of dialogue? The comma after 'me' throws the whole meaning off.

Karen spoke next,"Have you had any luck--" {as} next to me Bon was making a slashing motion across his neck trying to get her to stop, "--with your task, Chris?", Karen finished {speaking} hesitantly.

Just my humble thoughts. Good Luck.