SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Hi, I have read the Troy series and have just finished the Lion of Macedonia stories. I have enjoyed reading them as faction so I thought I would give the Drenai saga a go. Legend has blown me away and I cannot wait to get on a complete them. I have a bit of reading ahead but was wondering which authors can be compared to David Gemmell?

Short explanation? No-one!

(Admittedly fan-girling here) Gemmell was able to write adventure fantasy like no-one else; he laid the groundwork for people like Patrick Rothfuss or Scott Lynch or Joe Abercrombie or quite a few more!

But his Drenai stuff is still way ABOVE some more modern authors. More recent authors are finding their way, and will, quite likely, reach a decent standard. But IMHO, Gemmell was unique.

David Gemmell is one of my favorite authors. Another you might like to try if you like him is R.A. Salvatore

Carole-Ann wrote: "Short explanation? No-one!

(Admittedly fan-girling here) Gemmell was able to write adventure fantasy like no-one else; he laid the groundwork for people like Patrick Rothfuss or [a..."

I'd agree. I can't think of someone like Gemmell.

You could try [book:Thieves' World|552357] - it's a multi-book anthology series. It's not the same BUT you might find a good author you like there. Thieves' World

Finally other Gemmell fans. I have tried to push Gemmell on this site a couple of times and not got any response. I thought perhaps I was alone. Legend is still one of if not my favourite books ever, I just think the setting and Druss are brilliant. I envy Wayne as he still has White Wolf, King Beyond the gate and Waylander all yet to come. Also loved the Faction series, especially Lion of Macedon, possibly my second favourite of all time.

I tried reading Gemmell and liked the first couple Drenai books until I realised they were all the same story. Because of that I never continued reading his books.

Kim wrote: "I tried reading Gemmell and liked the first couple Drenai books until I realised they were all the same story. Because of that I never continued reading his books."


They aren't all the same story. They are all S&S but they have different plots and different character arcs.

But they all boiled down to be the same underlying story with a different coat of paint. I still enjoyed them but there's no way I could just sit down and read all of his books in a row.

Can't say I agree but to each his own.

I didn't even like the first one! LOL.

I did love Lord of the Silver Bow though, and I need to finish up that trilogy.

Jonshann0w wrote: "Finally other Gemmell fans. I have tried to push Gemmell on this site a couple of times and not got any response. I thought perhaps I was alone. Legend is still one of if not my favourite books ..."

With a *name* like Jon Shannow, I wouldn't expect any diferent!! :)

@ Kim: they all boiled down to be the same underlying story with a different coat of paint But couldn't most adventure fantasy be viewed in this way, too??

(Trivialising, here, so please don't take offense) - after the Twilight stuff, couldn't the same be said for most YA Vampiric stories?

My major reasons for continuing to read "adventure fantasy" AND "YA Vampires" is that one can find an author who 'does' it just that little bit different. It's a delight to find someone who takes that little 'twist' and turns it into something else!

No arguing here (at all) :) but as MrsJ says - each to his own :)

Carole-Ann wrote: "(Trivialising, here, so please don't take offense) - after the Twilight stuff, couldn't the same be said for most YA Vampiric stories?."

Well there's a reason I don't read those books and why none of them will ever be a group read.

Also you're talking about different authors, this is all about one author. Same "twist" and all. When I was young I didn't notice this as much, hence why I loved the Belgariad and the Malloreon, the exact same series, but now I can't see any point in reading works like that.

The first 3 books of the Drenai series were just way too similar for me to want to continue them.

Kim wrote: "The first 3 books of the Drenai series were just way too similar for me to want to continue them.
"

Those first 3 books followed a particular character/story arc. There is a rhyme and reason to them and they are not all the same story.

As I am not a fan of "you should read more books in the series!" I won't suggest that.

But I do think it's sad that you won't allow Gemmell books to be read in this group. There are a lot of people who love and enjoy his work. I own this series myself.

One of my groups is reading Lord of the Silver Bow next month...

Kim wrote: "Well there's a reason I don't read those books and why none of them will ever be a group read."

Speaking about Twilight.

MrsJoseph wrote: "I do think it's sad that you won't allow Gemmell books to be read in this group."

Speaking about Gemmell.

DavidO wrote: "Kim wrote: "Well there's a reason I don't read those books and why none of them will ever be a group read."

Speaking about Twilight.

MrsJoseph wrote: "I do think it's sad that you won't allow Ge..."


Oh. My bad.

OK, I'm going to do something I said I would never do - which is to emphasise something I actually believe in.

Kim wrote: "Well there's a reason I don't read those books and why none of them will ever be a group read."

I'm sorry, but I think this is a poor excuse for excluding any author, irrespective of what they write AND however similar they may be to previously published authors. Yes, there are good, and bad, authors; but in a 'reading group' isn't it paramount to facilitate a broad range? We all have opinions personal to us (accepted), but to deny a Group the privilege of finding what we like (or what we hate) is bordering on dictatorship (apologies in advance if you find this offensive - I don't mean it to be.)

I have questioned previously, the books on the shelves in this group, and was told that they existed there only because the "group was reading/had read them" and we were not allowed to add continuing books in a series, or even new SFF books by new authors. I am disappointed with the restrictions in place. I don't question them because I understand (I hope) where the Mods are coming from - but I don't agree.

Although I joined this group to talk about (hundreds of SFF) books I've read, I'm beginning to find the limitations a little too much. I may, or may not, remain a (lurking) member.

Carole-Ann, I guess I haven't been here long enough, but it seemed to me, from the discussions, that we were free-ranging across SF&F pretty far. Did I miss something you had added, because I'm always looking at further-from-mainstream authors and books?

I'm not even sure what the restrictions are except, I think, no YA or children's.

I can see childrens' fantasy being largely ignored, but SOME YA fantasy can be well-written, and appreciated for the craft and skill involved.

Art wrote: "I can see childrens' fantasy being largely ignored, but SOME YA fantasy can be well-written, and appreciated for the craft and skill involved."

Oh, yes! Starship Troopers is one of my favorites.


*Note: that *movie* was nothing like the book. They only share title and character names.

@ Art - I don't comment much here - I joined originally to find out if I was missing out (somewhat) on new-published SFF books; and to see what other people thought about the genre. I've been reading SFF for over 50 years and it's always been a niche genre; but I do like finding new authors! My impression about this Group (and no offense meant to anyone about anything) is that it's not just general (aka broad) enough to engender a good dialogue.

@ DavidO - nope, you've not missed anything. It's just that in reading comments re: a book of the month, I checked the shelves here. I was surprised to find (what I would call) a minimal list of books. I queried the lack of books in a continuing series, and those of relatively new authors. I was told that the shelves only reflected those books which had been read by the Group.

One of the reasons I joined GR in the first place was to find comments on books I've noticed (in the past) and to see if they were worth reading or not. I personally own something in the region of 3,000 plus SFF books - all of which I have read - but there are some out there which I've hesitated to buy because I wasn't quite sure. I had hoped this Group would help me decide I'd probably missed something GOOD!! Unfortunately, this hasn't happened.

I KNOW different people have different views (and never the twain will meet) but I hoped to be able to convince (and BE convinced) that a SFF book was worth buying :)

Are we sure Kim said he, as a mod, would exclude them? Seems to me, he might have been saying they'd never win a vote to be the monthly read? He may have just been speaking as a member, and not as a mod, perhaps? Not sure.

DavidO wrote: "I'm not even sure what the restrictions are except, I think, no YA or children's."

two YA books were just monthly reads in Jan - Ocean at the End of the Lane, and Fuzzy Nation. (Both great! imo :) )

Carole-Ann wrote: "One of the reasons I joined GR in the first place was to find comments on books I've noticed (in the past) and to see if they were worth reading or not. I personally own something in the region of 3,000 plus SFF books - all of which I have read - but there are some out there which I've hesitated to buy because I wasn't quite sure. I had hoped this Group would help me decide I'd probably missed something GOOD!! Unfortunately, this hasn't happened.

I KNOW different people have different views (and never the twain will meet) but I hoped to be able to convince (and BE convinced) that a SFF book was worth buying :) "

*confused*

Are you discussing Twilight still?

I can't comment on Kim's intentions but Twilight is not SFF. Twilight is a Paranormal YA Romance and thus would automatically be ineligible for a group read.

Paranormal is fantasy, though. It's not science fiction, true. But definitely fantasy.

@ MrsJ - Nope, not talking the Twilight stuff :) I only used that as an example (obviously a bad one) of new (and old) authors jumping on the bandwagon and writing similar (poor) novels [a little like EL James and 50SoG] because someone became popular.

Gemmell wrote Sword and Sorcery which was different to the novels coming out of the USA (OK, like Weisz & Hickman Dungeons and Dragons stuff); and it was excitingly different (don't forget this was 30 years ago) :)

Times change; writers develop; tropes go in and out of fashion; but there's (usually) something new out there which takes hold. But that's WRITING.

I'm all for innovation; but accept that the basic story-line doesn't really change too much :)

Okay, I went looking fir the parameters for group reads, and couldn't find any. It almost sounds like, for a group, one individual will suggest a book and others will either buy in or bow out. I really haven't seen any group being told, "Sorry, that doesn't fit OUR guidelines, but maybe I've missed something. For example, is "Green Eggs and Ham" suitable? Is "Glory Road" acceptable, or will someone tell me it's just teenage-type male machismo?

Carole-Ann wrote: "I have questioned previously, the books on the shelves in this group, and was told that they existed there only because the "group was reading/had read them" and we were not allowed to add continuing books in a series, or even new SFF books by new authors. I am disappointed with the restrictions in place. I don't question them because I understand (I hope) where the Mods are coming from - but I don't agree. ..."

Carole-Ann, the bookshelf books are those books that were group reads, mostly (all?) selected from polls voted on by members, I believe.

@ MK - yes, that's what I was told, and I accept the proviso that it was a GROUP choice.

My quandry was that there was nothing else there.

Art wrote: "Okay, I went looking fir the parameters for group reads, and couldn't find any. It almost sounds like, for a group, one individual will suggest a book and others will either buy in or bow out. I re..."

Check in this folder, Art:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

There's a thread in there where members suggest themes for monthly nominations. Then, each month, there's a themed poll, with selections nominated by members. And another poll, with selections picked by moderators. Each month, one poll is fantasy, and one is sci fi. They alternate each month as to which poll is populated by member nominations, and which is populated by moderator selections.

Carole-Ann wrote: "@ MK - yes, that's what I was told, and I accept the proviso that it was a GROUP choice.

My quandry was that there was nothing else there."

I don't understand what you mean regarding the quandary? Do you mean you don't like the titles selected by the group? Or you'd like the option of adding your own titles to the bookshelf? Something else? Sorry, not quite following you ..

MK wrote: "Carole-Ann wrote: "@ MK - yes, that's what I was told, and I accept the proviso that it was a GROUP choice.

My quandry was that there was nothing else there."

I don't understand what you mean reg..."

OK - I think it restrictive that no other books are listed (other than those read as a (possible or actual) group read.

There are thousands of books out there which satisfy this Group's criteria (avoiding YA/children's books) but they are not listed. Series ONLY contain the FIRST book, and no subsequent one/s (unless a Group member presses for the next one to be read).

A reading group (IMHO) should have lots to choose from; and loads of recommendations. This doesn't happen here. I belong to a number of other Groups in GR, and there are always lots to choose from - even just listing the whole back-list of any author!

Sorry, just being a pain......

So you are looking for a list of all SFF book ever written? I'd recommend going to explore->genres. Then selecting either fantasy of science fiction and starting from there. It lists new releases as well as most read this week or scroll down to popular. That lists the top 20,000 fantasy (or science fiction) books based on popularity.

ahh, I gotcha! well, since I just joined here a few months ago, myself, probably it's time for me to let someone more familiar with the group explain further.

That section is only one section tho. No reason you can't discuss others in other sections, though. Like this one, where the poster wanted to talk about David Gemmel :)

MK wrote: "Paranormal is fantasy, though. It's not science fiction, true. But definitely fantasy."

But it's genre is Romance. The sub genre is paranormal. And in this - and almost all Romance cases - the paranormal stands for sex and romantic relationships with said paranormal creatures.

Not quite what a reader looking for SFF would expect (most SFF readers expect their vampires to be staked not sexed.

But, if yall want read books about hot vampires and/or werewolves that give good sex...I could create a list for you. There's tons of PNR groups.

Carole-Ann wrote: "OK - I think it restrictive that no other books are listed (other than those read as a (possible or actual) group read.

There are thousands of books out there which satisfy this Group's criteria (avoiding YA/children's books) but they are not listed. Series ONLY contain the FIRST book, and no subsequent one/s (unless a Group member presses for the next one to be read).

A reading group (IMHO) should have lots to choose from; and loads of recommendations. This doesn't happen here. I belong to a number of other Groups in GR, and there are always lots to choose from - even just listing the whole back-list of any author!

Sorry, just being a pain...... "


So, if I'm reading you correctly...

What you are looking for is a list of all the books that have been published that this group could read?

That...would be a horrible undertaking as well as overwhelming.

But to start you off, here's a voted on (by a group but not this one) list of recommended UF books published relatively recently (as in decade).
https://bookslifewine.wordpress.com/f...

Bless you, DavidO: I subscribe to the majority of SFF publisher's newsletters, so I know what is coming!

I also maintain a spreadsheet which lists (most) of the SFF stuff ever published; and I belong to another website which lists SFF author's backlists - I have an awful lot of ways of checking things out :)

Carole-Ann wrote: "Bless you, DavidO: I subscribe to the majority of SFF publisher's newsletters, so I know what is coming!

I also maintain a spreadsheet which lists (most) of the SFF stuff ever published; and I bel..."

Ok, if you have all of that...

...I'm confused again.

What are you looking for?

@ MrsJ - Not looking for anything - just more books on the shelves here :)

Carole-Ann wrote: "@ MrsJ - Not looking for anything - just more books on the shelves here :)"



Shelf organization is...a daunting task. I'd only wish that much bookshelf adding on my worst enemy.

>.>



<.<

And maybe a few additional people.

MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "But it's genre is Romance. The sub genre is paranormal. And in this - and almost all Romance c..."

You're badly outvoted on that point. On goodreads, just under twice as many say the genre is fantasy, as opposed to romance (9393 vs 5875). And more than twice as many say it's fantasy-->paranormal, as opposed to romance-->paranormal (3333 vs 1503):

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

As to wanting a list of vamp books, or sexy vamp books, no, I don't particularly want that. I liked Anne Rice's books in the 80s. And really enjoyed Buffy and Angel in the 90s. And, too, I did want to read Twilight, because my daughter and her friends loved it, while she was in college. But I haven't gotten around to it yet.

Carol-Ann, I feel that "vetted" books (or curate, if you prefer) is the reason we're all here.

If every SFF book available were on each SFF group shelves...how would people discover books?

Sure, you could grab one randomly - but that just turns the groups into bookstores without salespeople.

What makes the groups powerful is the discussions and the curating. These books come with opinions.

Sooooooo apart from the first couple of comments ....I take it there is no one like Gemmell lol.

Wayne wrote: "Sooooooo apart from the first couple of comments ....I take it there is no one like Gemmell lol."

The author specific threads tend to grow slowly. Most never even get to this many posts, even though this was caused by a side discussion.

MK wrote: "MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "But it's genre is Romance. The sub genre is paranormal. And in this - and almost all Romance c..."

You're badly outvoted on ..."

They're wrong.

MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "They're wrong"

No they're not. The galactic genre licensing committee approved their use of the fantasy tag.

They can call it whatever they want to. I can also call ice a cheeseburger.

Somebody needs to change the name of this topic to not David Gemmell.
edit: Wow. I didn't think anyone would actually do it.

Ok so this thread really got sidetracked and blew up quite a bit today. I've created a new thread for the original topic of discussion, David Gemmell.

To respond to other points, issues, raised in this thread. No there is no ban on YA or children's books being nominated. I will say, however, that in the past children's books have been the group read and then nobody wanted to discuss them and really there was nothing worth discussing in them. We want the group reads to have something we can talk about and not just be popular books. This month we're reading The Last Unicorn which a lot of people have shelved as YA or children's.

Secondly. No there will not be paranormal romance books. There are plenty of groups out there that will read that stuff, this is not one of those groups.

Lastly, Carole-Ann I really am not sure what you're getting at when you talk about the bookshelf? The purpose of almost any book club is for each month a book to be chosen that the group then reads and discusses. Each month we do two: one fantasy, one science-fiction. These books are either nominated by members to fit a theme or are chosen by myself and Penny and then both genres are voted on by members. The bookshelf shows the books that the group has chosen and read and is not there to show anything other than that. Hence why you can't just add other books to it. If you want to discuss books the group has not chosen that is perfectly fine, we have a whole section for that.

Lastly, we are not against new authors. The book currently winning the Sci-Fi poll for March is a debut novel. We are less likely to let indie authors into the polls though. And there is an important reason behind that decision. We are a big group. We have over 11,000 members from all over the world. And we want to give as many members the chance to join in on the discussions. So ideally we want books available in multiple formats (both hard copy and electronic, available through multiple stores), available internationally and with a good chance of being in library systems. Plus there's the whole other issue of quality...

I won't close this thread at this point as I want to give people a chance to respond but I believe I've said all I need to at this point.

Not going any further with this, and apologies for diverting the original thread.

My continuing frustration is as Kim mentions above: The bookshelf shows the books that the group has chosen and read and is not there to show anything other than that. Hence why you can't just add other books to it.

I'm OK accepting this, athough it is limiting in the extreme (my opinion - no-one needs to agree). In other Groups I belong to, there is no restriction to adding further books in a series, nor new ones coming out by new authors. It's a matter of available information.

If someone reads the first book in a series, it's guaranteed that they might need to continue and read the rest. A bookshelf including continuing series would (might?) help those readers. Bookshelves are also a good means of introducing new authors (group members may choose to read or not), but it's nice to know what's out there and what may be recommended by one's "friends".

If, by limiting the content of the bookshelves, this Group is satisfied, then all well and good. I'm not going to argue the precepts.

We are less likely to let indie authors into the polls though. And there is an important reason behind that decision. We are a big group. We have over 11,000 members from all over the world. And we want to give as many members the chance to join in on the discussions.
I belong to a number of 'big' Groups, and it's never stopped us from discussions :) But I think the first sentence of this extract is wrong. Over the last few years, I've found, read, and enjoyed tremendously, some of those 'Indie writers', who have gone on to find respected publishing houses, and made a fairly decent amount of money/fame. If it weren't for readers like me - who are happy to TRY something new, recommended by a 'friend' - then I would suggest that most Indie writers of SFF give up now and find another genre to write. You are not giving them a chance, and I'm sorry for that.

OK, that's my bit. No more.

For the original poster - David Gemmell was (and probably still is) iconic and a genius! Read ALL his books, and enjoy!