Queereaders discussion

Alex wrote: "I had to read Chaucer, too; couldn't get past the General Prologue of the Canterbury Tales. Did the essay on whether one of the male pilgrims was actually a girl pretending to be a guy..."

I got a bit farther. ;) The Canterbury Tales didn't bother me so much. Although reading him in the original middle English made it additionally difficult. But I finally bottomed out when we were reading his "virtuous women" stuff: The Legend Of Good Women. He seemed completely unable to see women as anything other than a cockpit, baby factory and slave/servant. It just got sickeningly repetitive, repugnant and misogynistic.
Like I said we didn't really get along. ;)

Alex wrote: "Rick wrote: "I'd also taken a class on Chaucer as an undergrad thatwas taught as if it was a grad seminar, but Chaucer and I didn't get along very well. ;) ..."

I had to read Chaucer, too; couldn'..."

I liked Chaucer. It was Milton that hurt my head. But some good quotes...

Phillip wrote: "I love it. I've always appreciated the gender switch, and I even watch those silly m..."

That's one of the greatest things about Shakespeare's plays. For instance: The Taming of the Shrew is often seen as very misogynistic, and bt today's standards it is. But if the play were staged as it was originally, all the social commentary about women needing to be subordinate to men gets turned it ridicule because it now a male dressed in drag saying that speech at the end. A clear argument can be made that Shakespeare was subversively trying to tear down the cultural norms about gender stereotypes by having an audience laugh at the absurdity of the situation. Anyone who cant see this needs to go back and recognize that he did the same type of thing for Jewish stereotypes in The Merchant of Venice; for racial stereotypes in Othello; for colonialism in The Tempest; for ageism in King Lear; and I would offer that an argument can be made for Romeo and Juliet being about accepting love in what ever form it takes since it was originally staged by all male casts. What gets lost now is that the audiences of Shakespear's time were fully aware that these were all-male casts and were able to watch and enjoy the plays on multiple levels, just like today's audiences enjoying the latest romantic comedy or drama at the cineplex. His plays were hugely successful and watched all factions of citizens, so they had to play to multiple types of engagement. Another great example is Twelfth Night were you have males playing females pretending to be males who fall in love with males. The gender bending is indisputable when you take into account that the play was written knowing an all-male cast woul be playing all the parts. In fact, I don't feel like his plays reach their true potential unless the cast is all-male. The lose that level of societal subversion with females in the roles. This isn't to say that they shouldn't be cast with women, running the plays that way doesn't ruin them - but it does change how the audience interacts with them.

Kernos wrote: "I liked Chaucer. It was Milton that hurt my head. But some good quotes..."

I enjoyed The Canterbury Tales, not as much as Shakespeare, but I did enjoy it. It was The Legend Of Good Women that I got so sick of. Haven't read Milton.

Phillip wrote: "I really enjoyed your post, Rick, and read it multiple times."

Thanks. I just glanced back over it and noticed all the typos. O.o
I really should reframe from long post until my hands is healed. ;)

Kernos wrote: "I liked Chaucer. It was Milton that hurt my head. But some good quotes... ,..."

I liked Chaucer too! We read numerous tales in middle English (with copious footnotes of course for the antiquated middle English terms). It wasn't modern in sensibility, but for something written in 1392, it's pretty amazing and daring I think.

Alex I think my essay had that gender bending focus too. :)

I agree with you about Milton Kernos. I loved Paradise Lost - such fascinating perspectives of the devil, etc - Just gorgeous! But oh, the horror of the tangled syntax!! It took me ages to read it. I had to re-read some stanzas 10 or 20 times before I could fully grasp them.

I think the only book I've ever read that was slower going than Paradise Lost was the Victorian novel Sartor Resartus. Carlyle's arguments were so staggering and drunken in that book it was a horror to understand properly. Lots of Advil! Some moments of transporting language, but unlike Paradise Lost, not worth the trouble. Also, I have yet to encounter anyone else who has read it. If I'm going to suffer through it, I should at least get the pleasure of engaging discussion afterwards. I don't even think anyone else in the class bothered to read it .. or at least tried to understand it. So painful!

Phillip wrote: "Now I so want to see a really well-done all-male cast production of Romeo and Juliet!
..."

Hey Rick and Phillip, ironically last weekend I went to see Shakespeare's R&J. It was a play within a play about male Catholic school students acting out Romeo and Juliet. Some definite flaws in the play and production, but it was interesting. Much of the dialogue (probably 90%) was directly from Romeo and Juliet. Seeing a male Juliet that wasn't done in a campy way was interesting - it functioned on many levels simultaneously as you say Rick. It helped that the guy who played Juliet was the best actor of the bunch. I'll post a link on the plays thread when I have time.

Phillip wrote: "What lovely lines . . . so apt yet still something whimsical about them which has a nice way of lightening the existential weight off our proverbial shoulders! I really like your poet selections, Greg! ..."

Thanks Phillip! :)

Stephen wrote: "You mentioned Lear earlier. I think the most memorable ..."

This production sounds inspiring and inventive Stephen!

Phillip wrote: "Now I so want to see a really well-done all-male cast production of Romeo and Juliet!"

How about a gay version of R&J? Have you seen Private Romeo? I heard pretty good things about it.

Greg wrote: "Hey Rick and Phillip, ironically last weekend I went to see Shakespeare's R&J. It was a play within a play about male Catholic school students acting out Romeo and Juliet. Some definite flaws in the play and production, but it was interesting. Much of the dialogue (probably 90%) was directly from Romeo and Juliet. Seeing a male Juliet that wasn't done in a campy way was interesting - it functioned on many levels simultaneously as you say Rick. It helped that the guy who played Juliet was the best actor of the bunch. I'll post a link on the plays thread when I have time. ..."

The closest I've seen in the film Private Romeo which transplants the play into a contemporary all-male military school. It's a nice production, although I wasn't overly enamored with it. I'd love to see an All-male cast production. Someday, perhaps. The other problem, of course, is that the cultural subtext from Shakespeare's to today's era is totally different. In Shakespeare's time it was illegal for women to appear on stage, so some of what was being ridiculed was such laws. Today's audience loses that level of engagement on the subjugation of women, but gains a completely different subtext on gender roles and homophobia - one that was not intentionally written into the play. Once again, all those fascinating layers on the plays come into engagement.

One I liked better was Were the World Mine which reimagines A Midsummer Night's Dream through a high school production of the play. Musical shenanigans ensue. It's fun & light and can't be taken too seriously. Just as Puck asks of the audience at the end of the play.

And there's that: metahumor and breaking the fourth wall as written by Shakespeare. Don't you dare try and tell me he wasn't way ahead of his time. ;)

I also really like Julie Taymor's film of The Tempest. Helen Mirren as a female Prospero, or Prospera in the film, was brilliant. The film also has Alfred Molina, Felicity Jones, Russell Brand, Djimon Hounson, Alan Cumming, David Strathairn and Ben Whishaw as a delightfully gender-twisting, and often disturbing as hell, Ariel.

Phillip wrote: "@Alex and Rick -- I've never heard of Private Romeo but thanks for mentioning it; sounds intriguing, and if I come across it will definitely give it a try."

There's also a small budget Australian (?) film called Monster Pies that plays off the R&J themes as a queer text. I enjoyed that one as well.

Thanks for the recommendations Alex and Rick. The Tempest is the only one I'd heard of before - I'd heard it was good (how could it not be with that cast!), but I haven't gotten around to watching it yet.

All this Shakespeare talk has got me wanting to watch The Tempest again, maybe tonight.

I did just watch the Ridley Scott Robin Hood film from a couple years back. I'd missed it in the theater. Not as good as some of his other films (Alien is one of my top five favorite films & Blade Runner is up there too) but still enjoyable. I liked how they twisted the legend a bit, making it both more believable and unexpected in some ways.

Rick wrote: "I did just watch the Ridley Scott Robin Hood film from a couple years back. I'd missed it in the theater. N..."

I thought Alien and Blade Runner were both exceptionally good Rick!

Phillip wrote: "@Rick -- Thanks for the recommendations -- ... I may be one of the few people on GR who is not a Netflix s..."

I'm not a Netflix subscriber anymore either. The final straw for me was a few years back when the 'split' their service and started charging me double for what had been one service. Corporate greed and the audacity of the 1% at it finest (read: worst). ;)

Rick wrote: "All this Shakespeare talk has got me wanting to watch The Tempest again, maybe tonight.

I did just watch the Ridley Scott Robin Hood film from a couple years back. I'd missed it in the theater. N..."

I love Blade Runner as well. But all Ridley Scott has been doing lately are the "realistic" take on legends and other classic materials. I don't know how I feel about the new Robin Hood; I just think Russell Crowe looks like an old-timey butcher.

it`s late and raining outside, feels like autumn. just ate my favorite salads and now ready to go to bed and read :)

Elīna wrote: "it`s late and raining outside, feels like autumn. just ate my favorite salads and now ready to go to bed and read :)"

I love the rain Elina though that could be because it rains so infrequently here. It's a nice change when it does!

Alex wrote: "I love Blade Runner as well. But all Ridley Scott has been doing lately are the "realistic" take on legends and other classic materials. I don't know how I feel about the new Robin Hood; I just think Russell Crowe looks like an old-timey butcher..."

I totally agree with you about Russell Crowe. I don't think I'd have come up with that description, but it's weirdly accurate. ;)

Elīna wrote: "it`s late and raining outside, feels like autumn. just ate my favorite salads and now ready to go to bed and read :)"

Feels that way here too. Although I'm still trying to figure out what to eat for dinner.

Alex wrote: "I did just watch the Ridley Scott Robin Hood film from a couple years back. I'd missed it in t..."

Since we're on the topic of Alien, did anyone else see Prometheus? Not at the level of Alien obviously, but I thought it was intriguing.

I haven't seen Robin Hood either.

As far as Crowe, I remember him way, way back from the gay-themed film The Sum of Us and also from Hammers Over the Anvil. I remember liking The Sum of Us a lot when I saw it, but that was ages ago. I think the most recent film I saw Crowe in was The Gladiator.

I'm a huge fan of Alien, like I said, but I also loved the sequels each in their own way because they are so different. Alien was a horror film, Aliens was a combat film, Alien3 was a psychological thriller (the director's is much, much better than the theatrical release) and Alien Resurrection was weird mix of fairy tale and disaster flick. The Aliens vs. Predators films were awful and I had really high expectations for Prometheus, probably too high. I was disappointed, it wasn't a bad film, it just wasn't what I had hope or expected it to be. I need to give it another shot.

I liked Gladiator & The Sum of Us although I haven't seen the latter in many years so I don't remember much about it, other than enjoying it. I've not seen Hammers Over the Anvil.

I love the crossdressing of old stage productions. I still do, because in baroque opera the original castrato role is often sung by women, so I get Xerxes and suchlike heroes sung by women and they have love duets with other women singers.

At present I'm reading/writing about the Chinese stage, pre-Shakespeare (I'm in the 12th-13th centuries), where women did act on stage, and as easily acted male roles as female. Men acted female roles too, but it's a real swap because, unlike in Europe, either can do either. I think that's pretty cool.

Bryn wrote: "At present I'm reading/writing about the Chinese stage, pre-Shakespeare (I'm in the 12th-13th centuries), where women did act on stage, and as easily acted male roles as female. Men acted female roles too, but it's a real swap because, unlike in Europe, either can do either. I think that's pretty cool..."

I know a little about early Japanese theater but nothing about the Chinese stage. Was it structured very egalitarian with roles going to whomever best fit the part, or was there some other criteria or limitations involved with gender and the casting during productions?

I think your questions are still being researched, Rick. -- This wasn't true of the later Chinese stage (where, however, males played females). Stephen H. West and Wilt L. Idema tell me (in Monks, Bandits, Lovers, and Immortals: Eleven Early Chinese Plays) that "The gender of the performer and the gender of the character did not have to match, and in fact a major source about actresses from that period indicates that women often performed many types of male roles... Each troupe usually had a single star performer who played the leading role, either male or female." Another major source is a mural with a woman troupe-leader dressed for a male role, as are a couple of other women in her troupe. But I think sources, that tell about daily operations, are thin on the ground.

My fave is mention of this actor, who took the male bandit role: she was "tatooed on all four limbs, specialized in robber-band parts and had a squint in one eye." Of course I've pinched for her my novel.

Bryn wrote: "I think your questions are still being researched, Rick. -- This wasn't true of the later Chinese stage (where, however, males played females). Stephen H. West and Wilt L. Idema tell me (in [book:M..."

Fascinating. :)

Bryn wrote: "My fave is mention of this actor, who took the male bandit role: she was "tatooed on all four limbs, specialized in robber-band parts and had a squint in one eye." Of course I've pinched for her my..."

Ooooo. Sounds interesting. Such a tease. ;)

A great discussion Bryn and Rick - I wasn't aware of this about the Chinese stage.

Another fascinating cross-dresser from history: Lieutenant Nun: Memoir of a Basque Transvestite in the New World. There are moments when credibility does get stretched thin, but it's still an amazing experience to have lived through.

Greg wrote: "As far as Crowe, I remember him way, way back from the gay-themed film The Sum of Us and also from Hammers Over the Anvil. I remember liking The Sum of Us a lot when I saw it, but that was ages ago. I think the most recent film I saw Crowe in was The Gladiator."

Oh, I like The Sum of Us, too; it's pretty funny and sweet in some scenes, and the dad is great, though a little too enthusiastic trying to get his son paired off.

As to the Gladiator, I like the fanfic for it much better than the movie. But at least I was entertained. :p

Bryn wrote: "At present I'm reading/writing about the Chinese stage, pre-Shakespeare (I'm in the 12th-13th centuries), where women did act on stage, and as easily acted male roles as female. Men acted female roles too, but it's a real swap because, unlike in Europe, either can do either. I think that's pretty cool."

The most famous actor of Beijing opera in modern times, Mei Lanfang, is a male actor playing female roles exclusively, and he married an actress playing male roles exclusively.

Rick wrote: "I know a little about early Japanese theater but nothing about the Chinese stage. Was it structured very egalitarian with roles going to whomever best fit the part, or was there some other criteria or limitations involved with gender and the casting during productions? "

AFAIK, each troupe is either all male or all female. Most the male troupes toured all around the country, going into public theatres, but the female troupes often performed only for the rich and the nobility, at private theatres. Or at least that's what I gathered from The Dream of the Red Chamber.

But that's in the Qing dynasty, so I don't know anything about the 12th - 13th century.

Also, a lot of the male actors playing female roles are often the receiver of affections from the public, with rich and powerful patrons even demanding sex from them.

Alex wrote: "The most famous actor of Beijing opera in modern times, Mei Lanfang, is a male actor playing female roles exclusively, and he married an actress playing male roles exclusively. ..."

Fascinating Alex! I love it!

Alex wrote: "AFAIK, each troupe is either all male or all female. Most the male troupes toured all around the country, going into public theatres, but the female troupes often performed only for the rich and the nobility, at private theatres. Or at least that's what I gathered from The Dream of the Red Chamber. But that's in the Qing dynasty, so I don't know anything about the 12th - 13th century. Also, a lot of the male actors playing female roles are often the receiver of affections from the public, with rich and powerful patrons even demanding sex from them."

Ah, interesting. Seems the theater world was just as uniquely queer in the China as every where else. ;)

Rick wrote: "All this Shakespeare talk has got me wanting to watch The Tempest again, maybe tonight..."

Which version of The Tempest do you recommend (on DVD)?

Phillip wrote: "@Alex and Rick -- I've never heard of Private Romeo but thanks for mentioning it; sounds intriguing, and if I come across it will definitely give it a try."

I loved this totally unexpected movie. I even teared (highly unusual). I liked Were the World Mine even more.

Serendipity! I was just looking at DNA and discovered a new Aussie movie with Guy Pearce called Holding The Man, based on a memoir of the same name Holding the Man

FFI see nterview With Holding The Man Screenwriter Tommy Murphy

Kernos wrote: "Which version of The Tempest do you recommend (on DVD)?"

The only one I currently own is Julie Taymor's The Tempest from 2010 or 2011. It's more than a little unconventional as it has a woman in the part of Prospero but Helen Mirren, a favorite of mine, is excellent. Everyone does some excellent performances, but Ben Whishaw is breath- taking as Ariel, a role usual given to a female actor in most productions these days. So there's kind of a double-whammy of gender role reversals in some ways. There are aspects of the play that don't translate quite as effectively with a female Prospero, but I never get tired of Helen Mirren.

I've not seen the Derek Jarmen version, but I'd think that's pretty good too. And I'd love to the one from the early 60s with Roddy McDowell, Richard Burton & Maurice Evans. There's one with Christopher Plummer that came out about the same time as Taymor's, but I haven't seen that either. Those latter two are probably more conventional and traditional productions than either the Taymor or the Jarmen ones.

Kernos wrote: "... I liked Were the World Mine even more."

I couldn't agree more. ;)

I'll have to see Holding the Man, looks good. I just added it to my to-read list. ;)

I'm right in the middle of Southern Baptist Sissies right now. Basically taking an intermission from this emotional roller-coaster of tears and hilarity. So far it reminds me a lot of attending middle school in that hot bed of seething hypocrisy, racism & homophobia: Lubbock, Texas.

For fantasy lovers MTV is doing The Shannara Chronicles based on The Elfstones of Shannara.

The Shannara series was the 1st epic I discovered after LOTR which made it special. I dont think the books are as good as Game of Thrones. I suspect MTV is trying to capitalize on the success of GOT. One hopes it will be as well done. The Series Premiere is Saturday, January 16, 2016. It stars Austin Butler as Wil Ohmsford.

Are there other Game of Throne fans here?

Rick wrote: "Kernos wrote: "Which version of The Tempest do you recommend (on DVD)?"

The only one I currently own is Julie Taymor's The Tempest from 2010 or 2011. It's more than a little unconvent..."

I have that one too, but found it a bit too modernized for my Shakespeare. I was looking at The Tempest - Shakespeare's Globe Theatre on - Screen with Roger Allam. It gets the highest reviews on IMDB. I can only find the Richard Burton one one VHS.

Kernos wrote: "The Shannara series was the 1st epic I discovered after LOTR which made it special. I don..."

I also read The Sword of Shannara shortly after finishing The Lord of the Rings, on the recommendation of a friend, and was enjoying it enormously until I got about 2/3 through and realized the author had merely and literally re-written The Lord of the Rings. I've never been able to stomach anything else by the author since then.

Kernos wrote: "... Are there other Game of Throne fans here?"

Haven't read these yet. Someday.

Kernos wrote: "Are there other Game of Throne fans here? "

Yep. And eagerly waiting for the 6th season. Unless you're talking about the book series, in which case, nope, sorry.

Kernos wrote: "I was looking at The Tempest - Shakespeare's Globe Theatre on - Screen with Roger Allam..."

One I own and love. Caliban is super, and the comedy works. -- I haven't yet caught up with the Helen Mirren but I'm a fan of hers.

@Phillip Thanks for your kind words. It was a tough life for performers, sexual exploitation and being whipped out of towns (society up and down in what it thought of actors): she must have been extraordinary.

Rick wrote: "I'm right in the middle of Southern Baptist Sissies right now. Basically taking an intermission from this emotional roller-coaster of tears and hilarity. So far it reminds me a lot of attending mid..."

Oh wow Rick - I attended middle school in a tough area too so I can relate!